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The Greatest Heavyweight Ever

Who is the Greatest Heavyweight Ever?

  • Joe Louis

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Tyson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lennox Lewis

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • John L Sullivan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Larry Holmes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jack Johnson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sony Liston

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
The question says it all. My vote, to start the ball rolling is Muhammed Ali, aka Cassius Clay.
 
Messages
2,807
This poll/thread should bring Javaman running here to defend Louis.

Although it's all been argued to death already on LWOS, in some of the best threads ever there.
 

hutch

First Grade
Messages
6,810
I may be showing my age by saying Lewis, but he is the only real heavyweight I have seen while interested in boxing, and I am pretty sure he is the only heavyweight champ to reverse his losses, ie. beat the 2 men who have beaten him. I dont know how he would have gone against Ali, he looked very impressive. There definately arent as many good heavyweights around anymore, and the good ones are all well into there 30's. i dream for the day of an aussie heavyweight worthy of mixing it with the big boys
 

Trojan Horse

Juniors
Messages
126
CanadianSteve said:
This poll/thread should bring Javaman running here to defend Louis.

Although it's all been argued to death already on LWOS, in some of the best threads ever there.

I'd like to see Javaman here too, Steve. The guy has strong views on Joe Louis and presents them in a gallant, yet gentlemanly, manner. He'd be a good asset to the boxing section here.

The boxing chats at LWOS were incalculable. A joy to read.
 
Messages
2,807
Trojan Horse said:
CanadianSteve said:
This poll/thread should bring Javaman running here to defend Louis.

Although it's all been argued to death already on LWOS, in some of the best threads ever there.

I'd like to see Javaman here too, Steve. The guy has strong views on Joe Louis and presents them in a gallant, yet gentlemanly, manner. He'd be a good asset to the boxing section here.

The word on LWOS recently, from Javaman's friend Attila, is that he has talked Gentleman Javaman into trying this forum, presumably on the boxing threads.

The boxing chats at LWOS were incalculable. A joy to read.

Yes, they were one of the many good things about good ol' LWOS.
 

Trojan Horse

Juniors
Messages
126
A fine page I found written about the history of heavyweight boxing, boxers and the best of the current millennium.


_________________________________________________________

The 10 best heavyweight boxers of the Millennium

By: Muhammad Naveed Ahmed and Steve Connolly


Muhammad Ali, the division's first three-time champ lost three peak years due to his religious beliefs, but still managed to beat every relevant heavyweight during the greatest era for heavyweight talent ever seen: the '60s and the '70s

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It is always filled with interest: A discussion between a group of boxing fans and critics, commentators and trainers, managers, referees and judges, trying to line up the best boxers of all time (especially pugilists of the heavyweight division). The debates the British boxing critic and columnist Steve Connolly and I have been involved in always include prizefighters of three generations.

The first generation starts in the mythical age of the blind yet poetic storyteller/historian of Homer, who is famous for writing The Iliad and The Odyssey featuring mainly the Trojan battle that was fought for 10 year for 'Helen of Troy'. It was a period in the annals of time when the Greeks were regarded as the most superior breed of human beings.

The best and most well known pugilist of that age is known as 'Ajax' the Greek, who is described by Homer as a puncher of class and skills who never got tired. Ajax, as claimed in the myth-cum-history, it is said, always prevailed against his opponents who happened to be crude and raw and proving to be 'easy' contenders to match up with Ajax's abilities.The only 'opponent of class' who clashed against Ajax, as described by Homer, happens to be Paris, the lover of Troy's Helen and the youngest and most beautiful wife of the Trojan King Priam.

Paris also happens to be the second main player of that tragic mythical/historical 10-year-old epic battle of that time.

According to versions of The Iliad and The Odyssey, translated differently by different writers, Paris is said to have challenged the unbeaten and 'huge' Ajax for a fight. While Ajax laughed at the idea and tried to calm his challenger with a pat on the back, Paris is said to have scoffed at him and humiliated him by describing him as a coward, who had fought and beaten only cowards.

Never accustomed to such taunting, Ajax now 'had' to accept Paris' challenge there and then in the court of King Priam. Ajax, however, it is described again tried to make peace by saying that Paris either apologise and take back his words or get ready to fight him without much ado. Paris, who was prepared to do anything for his beloved Helen, agreed to Ajax's acceptance of his challenge right there instead of making peace.

However, it is said that Paris also fixed a condition that if he beat Ajax then his beloved Helen would be allowed to go away with him without any other scuffle or further fighting. His idea appears to have caused roars and roars of uncontrollable laughter in the court. But King Priam and Ajax accepted it and thus the first chronicled boxing clash was fought.

Ajax was quick and agile with both his fists packing heavy power. Even Paris, it has been said, was young and lethal while punching willing to do anything he could to 'win' his beloved as well as prevent a full scale battle between the Greeks and the Trojans. They fought bare-knuckled but another boxing gladiator was chosen and accepted by both the boxers as the referee and judge of the fight. King Priam, meanwhile, was to be the final authority in proclaiming the winner. The rules set forth, both the men were made to shake hands, so that it -- the clash -- was meant to be a sport and not a 'contest to the death'.

Ajax smiled at Paris and asked him to charge. Paris was cautious and did not accept the 'dare'. However, he (being as tall as Ajax) threw the first two punches on the arms of Ajax, giving the Greek the impression that he was dead serious to box it out with him. Ajax let Paris pound him and after some blows "feigned" as if he was about to fall.

Paris felt as if Ajax was really hurt and that now he (Paris) could deliver the final blows and finish the contest. Being 'fooled' the young Paris rushed in swinging both his fists wildly. Ajax, as described by one translator, "ducked and landed only two blows, one hitting the right temple of Paris and the other digging deeply into his mid-section." Paris, as described, "doubled over and as Ajax watched him fell on the ground gasping for breath." However, he managed to rise and got up with the intention of continuing the fight when another right landed on "the chin of Paris and he fell again, unconscious and beaten."

Ajax, being as sportive as allowed by the rules, took Paris in his arms and handed him over to his supporters and friends, affirming the fact with the dialogue that "Nobody beats Ajax".

That prehistoric bout is the first 'boxing' match as described by the Greeks. When their empire fell, the Romans made the 'combat sport' a 'bloodthirsty duel' to be fought for their visual pleasure in the arenas of the Coliseum in Rome, the ruins of which still stand as mute witnesses of the barbarism of the Romans as compared against the aesthetic valour of the Greeks.

The Greeks were 'sportive' even in 'boxing and wrestling' while the Romans were "sadists" even in 'sportive brawls'. The Greek civilisation is famous for allowing the flourishing of arts, sports and culture while the Roman era is notorious for its "bloodthirstiness and cunning." The monuments of both stand even today as proofs of their different ideologies.

Now, closing in the gap of bare-knuckled boxers and champions, the most well known name happens to be that of John L. Sullivan regarded by many as the 'father of boxing. However, in reality, we (the puritans of the sport) accept Ajax the Greek as its real and legitimate 'father'. Ajax is said to have fought more than 500 challengers from all parts of the world.

The detailed list of his opponents is not given anywhere but they say that it included men from all sections of society (slaves, captive and trained gladiators, giant and well-built prisoners and court nobles who liked the 'manly' sport. Boxing and wrestling owe much to the Greeks if they are regarded as 'combative sports'.

So it was till the closing years of the 19th century when a challenger called James J. Corbett and made famous as 'Gentleman Jim' challenged Sullivan to a contest that would not end till one of them could bear no more and is stopped by the referee from continuing further. Sullivan accepted the challenge. But, he resisted the idea of 'boxing with gloves' as compared with 'boxing without gloves'.

He was the bare-knuckle champion who had knocked out more than 200 challengers. At the same time he was also a stern 'anti-glove' supporter. After much efforts that meant consoling Sullivan that "gloves would protect the knuckles from being fractured and would also prove to be more hurting than just bare fists."

They fought and Corbett, being young and clever, managed to box and retreat, rather than stand in the centre of the ring and slug it out as a "toe-to-toe brawl" -- something to which the older Sullivan was accustomed with. Corbett was not hit by any of Sullivan's lethal punches just because he was quick on his feet and reflexes and agile and alert with his punches and defence.

As the fight progressed boxing fans were watching Sullivan being humbled into submission for the first and only time in his life. Corbett was successful in beating him and having the honour of being hailed as the first "Gloved fists" heavyweight boxing champion. His prowess as a boxer has been enacted neatly by the late Errol Flynn in the movie "Gentleman Jim".

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According to Corbett's own description of the bout he happens to be the first prizefighter who used footwork and speed to outwit and outbox the much experienced and harder hitting Sullivan. It is therefore, somewhat surprising when boxing experts who used to watch Ali train and fight right from his early years commented on his "dancing and shuffling" and "hands-held-low" style as unorthodox and "unsafe" and "of little use" against sluggers like Henry Cooper and Sonny Liston.

Ali, in my opinion, must have seen "Gentleman Jim" at some stage in his life because what Corbett introduced as 'unique' were perfected as 'style, grace and class' by not only Ali but also by Sugar Ray Robinson, the best among the professional middleweight champions of the world. "Footwork and circling around", emphasises Corbett. "keeps the opponent confused all the time and provides many opportunities to the one who shuffles and moves around i.e. dances, to hit and stay out of harm's reach."

This style has always been difficult to practice so there have been only "five" world champions who did it thoroughly and made it work effectively to their advantage. The first is Corbett. The others are Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard and Larry Holmes.

All these boxers relied on this style to score points and win against stronger and hard-hitting challengers. However, it is Ali and only Ali who makes the style a treat to watch. While Robinson, Leonard, Corbett and Holmes did it when they felt they were in a 'danger zone', Ali did it with the agility, grace and finesse of a ballet dancer. Ali used the ring to its full advantage and dancing and shuffling were not just his 'style of fighting' but were also part of his 'clowning act'.

The only other man who 'perfected' this fighting style was the inimitable martial artist known to all of us as (late) Bruce Lee. "Bruce," his wife Linda says "loved to dazzle" all those who watched him practice with his footwork and punching speed."

And Bruce Lee, as described by his Chinese teachers like Danny Inosanto (the Nun-Chaku expert), learnt a lot about speed and reflexes, punching and counter-punching and 'shuffling and dancing' from Muhammad Ali. Bruce, it is said, loved to watch the bouts of both Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali.

He shows how 'masterly' he too can 'dance around his foe' in the movie "The Way of the Dragon". His last fight against Chuck Norris (Seven-time World Karate Champion) shows how Lee, after being knocked down thrice by Norris in the beginning, resorts to 'dancing, ducking and circling' around Norris, making him throw his best kicks and punches into thin air. The punching speed of Lee is also as beautiful to watch as Ali's. And 'Kung-Fu' pronounced 'Gung-foo' is nothing but 'Chinese boxing'.

As Ali happened to be the perfectionist of this style of boxing, he is ranked by almost every boxing expert, trainer, analyst and even opponents as the 'Top No. 1' in the ranking of the 10 best ever boxers. Columnists and author of books Hugh McNaughton describes Ali as "incomparable and inimitable from the years 1960-67 and the 'greatest' boxer ever born". He is joined by other writers like Norman Mailer, Robert Lipsyte, Chuck Saunders, Jeff Rogers, Thomas Hauser and George Plimpton as 'the greatest' ever seen in the ring from 1960-67 -- when he was stripped off all his titles and not allowed to box anywhere in the world.

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"He is the greatest boxer" say trainers Angelo Dundee and the late Cus D'Amato. Even Eddie Futch, the manager of Joe Frazier and one-time sparring partner of Joe Louis says that "the Ali we saw from 1960 to 1967 was no doubt the greatest boxer we have seen or shall ever see."

Joe Louis, who is regarded by some as 'the greatest' boxer, better than Ali, himself disclaimed this statement in the last years of his life, working at Caesars' Palace in Las Vegas. He has been shown in the TV programme "This is Your Life Muhammad Ali" in 1978, stating that "Ali used to claim that he is the best heavyweight of us all and he has also proved it by beating seemingly unbeatable fighters like Sonny Liston, George Foreman, and Joe Frazier." He is not the only one who said this.

In the same programme we have Sugar Ray Robinson also come and proclaim that "Ali is really the greatest boxer of all time... he is better than me because I was a middleweight and he was a heavyweight. I might have inspired him in his early days but now he inspires me... not just as a boxer but as a great human being too."

Rocky Marciano also paid glowing tributes to Ali, commenting that "this kid is unorthodox but he will also be unbeatable. Nobody will be able to defeat him except he himself... and that will only be if he gets out of shape or remains inactive or non-serious in training."

This was the undefeated Rocky, airing his views in a radio interview, after watching Ali pummel Sonny Liston (twice), Henry Cooper (twice), Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley and the German Carl Mildenberger. Going further, Rocky stated that "He (Ali) has a heart like me, an iron will like me and both these traits will make him look better than I or Louis ever were in the years to come, because his style is totally different yet deadly effective."

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Even Archie Moore, the first man who offered to train Ali, when he turned professional and also the only boxer to have floored Rocky Marciano (even though he was beaten to a pulp in those four rounds he fought against Ali in 1964) also states in the book 'King of the World' by Pulitzer Prize winning writer David Remnick that "once I watched Clay (Ali) jog and shuffle, dance and jab and once I saw those two hands throwing flurries and combinations with the speed I have never seen, I told myself that here is a fighter who could have whooped Joe Louis and Marciano.

I mean Clay was simply super-fast, a heavyweight who looked lighter than a lightweight... I thought perhaps George Foreman could take him out but even there he showed his unique adaptability and his ease in changing tactics thus beating Foreman...which, at that time looked nothing short of a miracle."

So, in the list that Steve Connolly and I compiled, Ali is No. 1, right at the top and that is where he belongs to be. Here is our analysis of the top 10 heavyweight boxing champions of the period that begins with James J. Corbett:

1. MUHAMMAD ALI: 56-5 (37)... the division's first three-time champ lost three peak years due to his religious beliefs, but still managed to beat every relevant heavyweight during the greatest era for heavyweight talent ever seen: the '60s and the '70s. It means he competed in more competitive -- and legendary -- fights than any other fighter in history did. Authored two of the more memorable upsets in history as well against Liston and Foreman, and his ability to absorb the hardest head punches (round 15 in Frazier I) and body punches (early rounds with Foreman) was almost as impressive as his talent to avoid them. Arguably the most famous athlete of the second half of the 20th century, he struggled at times against lesser opponents (Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Ken Norton and Leon Spinks). Jones apart, they all got rematches and lost again. Ali, already ill (suffering from the early signs 'Parkinson Syndrome'), also committed 'the greatest' blunder of his life by trying to launch a third 'return to the ring' in 1980-81. He tried but was beaten by Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick. Another of Ali's drawbacks was his non-serious attitude towards training and preparing himself against his challengers, relying more on his 'overconfidence in his talents' and 'instinctive skills'. These happen to be the foremost reasons if one ponders on the 'Why and Buts' of all his losses.

2. JOE LOUIS: 68-3 (54)... considered by many experts to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, he was champion from 1937 to 1948 (the longest unbroken reign in boxing history -- in any division) and his 25 title defenses also remain the most number of consecutive defenses ever made. Four-time Ring Magazine 'Fighter of the Year', Louis was a national icon who fought under immense pressure when he took on Scheming in the rematch. And he delivered. Blessed with quick hands and power, if not the best chin, he was probably the best-trained fighter of all time. Quality of opposition not the best among his all time peers (hence 'Bums of the Month'). But he would have shone in any era.

3. JACK JOHNSON: 68-10-10 (40)... dominated the division for nearly eight years (1908-15) and fought in a time most of us could not fathom. White America threatened and despised this superior fighter. The first black heavyweight champion is a legitimate historical figure, one of the most influential fighters in history. Pioneered the fighting style Muhammad Ali perfected. Indeed, even 'The greatest' boxer (Ali) ranks Johnson no lower than three himself. His biggest 'weakness' was the quality of opposition, which, as a whole, was worse than Louis's or Ali's.

4. ROCKY MARCIANO: 49-0 (43)... perhaps the most difficult fighter to rank, the only undefeated heavyweight champion was the greatest overachiever in the division's history and defeated every major contender of his era. Small, even in his generation, Rocky overcame his lack of coordination and skill through intense training, heart, strength and power. He was also cleverer than he looked. Quite simply, Macron beat every opponent placed before him. No fellow heavyweight champion can match that. He retired at the age of 33.

5. GEORGE FOREMAN: 76-5 (69)... the only heavyweight to be a 'champion' of two distinct eras, Foreman is the oldest man to win (and regain) the heavyweight title (at 46). 'Big George' succeeded at every level in which he competed and was perhaps the hardest punching fighter of all time. Dominated fellow great Joe Frizzier but both title reigns were short. Foreman humbled Joe Frizzier twice, within the distance, and also knocked out Ken Norton in two rounds. Frizzier and Norton happen to be the only two heavyweights of the 1970s who prevailed against Ali even though Muhammad beat them twice in the rematch bouts. Foreman was knocked out by nobody else except Muhammad Ali in the eighth round in the 'Rumble in the Jungle' at Zaire in Kinshasa, Africa in 1974. He was also beaten by another crafty heavyweight Jimmy Young in 1976. Nobody else could defeat him even when he staged a comeback at the age of 46 and won back the heavyweight crown he had lost to Ali from a 25-year-old Michael Moore by knocking him out in the 10th round.

6. JACK DEMPSEY: 60-6-8 (50)... dominated during boxing's so called 'Golden Age' and was among the biggest draws in sports history (his first match with Tunney drew 120,000; the rematch, 105,000). This tough, fearless slugger emerged from an era that saw boxing as more a fight to the death than a sport. Was not nicknamed 'The Manassa Mauler' for box office purposes.

7. LARRY HOLMES: 69-6 (44)... Muhammad Ali's sparring partner and the world's heavyweight champ from 1978 to 1985, Holmes defended his title 20 times (second only to the great Joe Louis). 'Ring' magazine's 'Fighter of the Year' in 1982, Larry's telephone pole jab distanced himself from contenders as he was only one win short of matching Marciano's streak of wins without a loss. While dominating in a weak era of heavyweight boxing, 'The Easton Assassin' would have competed in any era.

8. JOE FRAZIER: 32-4-1 (27)... Possessed perhaps the greatest left hook in boxing history, Frazier slugged his way to an Olympic gold medal and then the heavyweight championship against the top heavies of his era. Was the only man who emerged as a legitimate rival for Muhammad Ali after the latter's forced departure, and defeated the legend in his second 'reign' 1971-1978 in arguably the most famous heavyweight fight in history described by many as 'Superfight-1' and 'The Fight of the Century'. Slowly yet markedly Frazier proved his vulnerability to absorb punishment and hang on in fights against the late Argentine 'Bull of the Pampas' Oscar Bonavena, George Foreman (1972 and 1976) and Muhammad Ali (in their 1974 rematch famous as Superfight-II and in the classic 'Thrilla in Manila' bout in 1975).

9. EVANDER HOLYFIELD: 38-6-2 (25)... Winner of his first world title in only his 12th pro fight, Holyfield would go on to unify the 'Cruiserweight' Crown and win the undisputed heavyweight title in a reign of quality that still continues today. The second three-time heavyweight champ after Ali, this Olympic medal winner defeated every top heavyweight of his era and secured worldwide respect for upset victories over Riddick Bowe and the so called 'Iron Mike Tyson.'

10. GENE TUNNEY: The first heavyweight to have retired as the 'undefeated world champion' (the second was Rocky Marciano), Gene Tunney was never regarded as good enough to beat 'The Manassa Mauler' named Jack Dempsey. An avid reader of books and magazines, Tunney stunned everybody by whooping Dempsey in both their clashes. The first bout was a neat demonstration of the purity of his 'scientific boxing' against the 'brutal slugging' of his opponent, which ended up in his taking away the 'Heavyweight Champion of the World Belt' from his much-favoured and much-feared rival. The rematch is controversial because of the 'Long Count' (The referee did not start the knockout counting until Dempsey went to a neutral corner). Still, Tunney was not really "out" as the film and videotape-recording versions (slowing down the action) prove. He was "in his senses" and managed not only to get up and counter the "Mauler" in the coming rounds scoring well and winning a unanimous points' decision. A quiet and sombre person described by those who knew him as a 'perfect gentleman' outside the ring, Tunney did not defend his title against legitimate black contenders and retired early - two years after winning the title. I regard him as an intelligent boxer who, like Ali, shattered the myth of the supposedly 'invincible' Dempsey not once but twice.
 
Messages
2,807
Here is an article pasted on LWOS's classic thread, In Praise of the Greatest. Sorry for its length, but I think it has a lot of points to consider. (And I agree with its conclusions ;-).

From: Infuzer Sent: 24/05/2003 1:47 AM
Here you go fellas.

Ranking The Heavyweights "Louis through Lewis"

By Frank Lotierzo

Why Louis through Lewis

Being a fight collector, I've seen all the films that are available of Jack Johnson, Jim Jeffries, Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney along with other past greats. Personally, I don't feel comfortable ranking fighters that far back. It's too easy for some to dismiss them saying they weren't that good, but I don't adhere to that mind set. It's just very hard to grasp their greatness due to the old films, which captured them. The films do them no justice and, with no audio, make it even more difficult to get a true appreciation of their greatness. I have a problem with those who just brush them off because they fought in another era and have adopted the attitude that if it wasn't shown on HBO or it wasn't a Sportscenter highlight, it doesn't mean anything.

Starting around the Joe Louis era the film and audio quality improved tremendously. There is plenty of good film available on the fighters from Louis forward, and I feel that it's more than adequate to get a good feel for the fighters. Plus, Louis was the new wave of fighter, way ahead of his time.

Louis & Ali

In this writer's opinion, Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are at the top of boxing's heavyweight Mount Rushmore. I am very confident that both of them would defeat all the fighters on this list. Ali and Louis have too many weapons and skills for the other fighters, and they are much more resourceful and complete. So, why do I have Ali over Louis? Most of the time when great fighters face each other, it very often comes down to styles. In a Louis-Ali match up, the style advantage goes to Ali. Other than Billy Conn, and Jersey Joe Walcott, most of Louis' opponents went to him, which played perfectly into his style. Fighters who moved away or circled caused him some difficulty.

Ali's overall speed and movement would make it very difficult for Louis to catch him to where he could unload his precision combinations in order to do the damage he would need to slow Ali. On the other hand, Louis fights a style that Ali is accustomed to facing. Louis would pressure him but not like Frazier or Foreman did, trying to force Ali to react when he didn't want to.

Louis applied more subtle pressure, which is something Ali could handle and exploit, and Louis didn't change for any fighter. Louis would just bide his time waiting for Ali to make a mistake, instead of trying to force him into making one like Frazier and Foreman did. This favors Ali. The bottom line is I take Ali over Louis mainly because Louis would have to change and adjust his fighting style and posture and Ali wouldn't. Another reason I favor Ali over Louis is that he beat better fighters. In Liston, Frazier and Foreman, Ali beat three fighters who make almost everyone's all-time heavyweight top ten ranking. In the case of Frazier and Foreman, Ali defeated them after his 43 month exile, while they were in their respective prime. Ali also is the only heavyweight champion in history whose opponents cannot be questioned, even by the harshest critics. One final thought on Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali, it is my firm belief that both of them are plenty big enough to more than handle the "so-called" giant heavyweight's fighting today. Both Louis and Ali defeated fighters as big or bigger than those currently fighting today. When reviewing both of their career's, it's quite obvious that both of them were more troubled by smaller and quicker fighters opposed to the bigger hulking type ponderous fighters of today.

Below are my heavyweight rankings in order from Joe Louis through Lennox Lewis. From number three George Foreman on, I give my scenario on how I see a match up involving Louis & Ali versus the fighters ranked 3 through 10.

How I Rated the Fighters

I'm a believer in head-to-head, and feel it carries much weight when rating one fighter over another. For me to rate Fighter A over Fighter B, I must feel strongly that A would've defeated B had they confronted each other on their best night. I also think length of title reign can sometimes be misleading. For example, Liston made only one title defense and Foreman only made two. However, both of their title tenures were cut short because they fought during the Ali era. Had Ali not been around, Liston could have remained champ through 1970, and Foreman could have reigned champ from 1973 into the 1990's. Remember, Foreman did capture the title a second time in November of 1994, and that was after a ten-year ring absence.

I ranked George Foreman very high for the fact he was the best puncher in heavyweight history, and had he not lost to Ali, he may have never been beaten. A closer look at Sonny Liston's career reveals that other than losing a decision to Marty Marshall in his eighth pro bout, which he avenged twice, Liston totally went through the division. His defeats by Ali were later in his career and he was an old man by the time Leotis Martin beat him.

Next is Joe Frazier, whom I have no doubt some will say I have ranked too high. In my opinion, Frazier is admonished too harshly for his defeats by Foreman. Those that say Frazier couldn't fight big punchers basically mean Foreman! Foreman is the best puncher in heavyweight history. On top of that, from a style standpoint, Frazier is made for Foreman, and Foreman is the only fighter to walk through Frazier. Of the ten times Frazier's been down, eight are by the sledgehammer fist of Big George. Frazier never lost to any fighter he shouldn't have. Other than Marciano, no other fighter on this list can say that.

It also must be pointed out that Frazier gave Ali life and death all three times they fought, and on the night of March 8th, 1971 Frazier gave boxing one of the greatest performances by any heavyweight ever, winning the biggest fight in boxing history. I rated Frazier above Marciano mainly because I just can't envision a fighter smaller than Joe beating him, and Marciano would be more prone to getting cut had they fought. However, I go back and forth on Frazier and Marciano, on another day I could easily rate Rocky over Joe.

Some may think Rocky Marciano should be ranked higher because he was undefeated, but I think that it's very realistic that had some of the above fighters fought during the time he did, they also may have gone undefeated, and that's not taking anything away from Rocky. Marciano had dynamite in both fists and a jaw that was immune to being hit. He was the best-conditioned heavyweight ever, and no one was tougher.

Next is Larry Holmes, who possessed the best jab in heavyweight history along with Liston. Holmes had the heart of a champion and was most dangerous when he was hurt. He also could fight and adapt to all different style opponents.

Evander Holyfield is next, and without question, he's the biggest overachiever in heavyweight history, he also was outweighed in all of his fights at heavyweight except four. He also defeated every top fighter of his generation.

Current champ Lennox Lewis has never met a fighter he wasn't able to defeat, and like Holyfield, fought and defeated the best of his era (I rate Holyfield above Lewis because I say at their best Holyfield decisions Lewis. When they fought, Holyfield was capable of only fighting in spurts, which made it impossible for him to outscore Lewis in hopes of winning a decision. Evander also had a better chin than Lennox, which is a must in the heavyweight division).

Mike Tyson is next. I think Tyson is somewhat of an underachiever, despite having tremendous physical talent. He is also winless against the best fighters he's faced. However, his punching power and hand speed cannot be denied. I also throw out a fight when a great loses to another great when one fighter is coming out of retirement or is obviously a shell of what they were at their best. Regarding the fighters on this list I don't consider, Holmes over Ali, Marciano over Louis and Tyson over Holmes when making my rankings. The way I see it, number three beats number four more times in 10 fights than number four would beat number three. This is how I come to my conclusions ranking the fighters one through 10.

Rankings 1-10

1-Muhammad Ali: (times knocked down-four) (times stopped-one)

Muhammad Ali had more weapons and ways to beat great heavyweights than any other heavyweight champion in history. He was the fastest heavyweight ever of hand and foot, blessed with a cast iron chin and very underrated physical strength. Ali had the ability to endure a body shot as good or better than any heavyweight who has yet lived, coupled with never before seen recuperative powers. Ali was the master at psychological warfare and had an indomitable will to win. He could adjust and adapt to all different fighting styles. Ali used his strength to outmuscle the boxers, and his speed to outbox the swarmers and sluggers, and was as tough as could be. It must not go unmentioned that Ali fought and dominated during the best era in heavyweight history, despite being out of boxing the four best years of his physical prime. Unlike Louis, Ali was probably the most flawed heavyweight champion ever from a fundamental boxing standpoint. He just out sped his flaws and mistakes because of his great athletic ability. The one thing Ali lacked was one punch knockout power that some believe a dominant heavyweight champion should possess

2-Joe Louis: (times knocked down-seven) (times stopped-two)

Joe Louis is the most faultless fighter in boxing history. He is the textbook on boxing, did everything perfect and was light years ahead of his time. He had perfect form, wasted no punches and threw every punch perfectly with speed and accuracy. He had dynamite in both hands, applied subtle pressure to set his opponents up and was a great combination puncher who carried his punch throughout the fight. Louis also had an outstanding chin. Some say his chin was his weakness but they are wrong. History shows he was down seven times. But he was only stopped early in his career before reaching his peak by Max Schmeling, after Louis absorbed countless flush rights to his jaw; And don't be fooled, Schmeling had a stiff right hand. The other time Louis was stopped was when he was an empty package at the age of 37, fighting Rocky Marciano, one of history's greatest punchers. Other than these two fights, Louis was never close to being stopped. He was knocked down but jumped right back up, in what is known as a flash knockdown. The only kink in the armor of Joe Louis was that he was sometimes vulnerable to boxers with good foot movement.

3-George Foreman (times knocked down-three) (times stopped-one)

vs.... Louis: This fight comes down to styles. Louis and Foreman are the two most dangerous fighters in heavyweight history when the opponent goes to them, it's literally suicide. The fighter who advances toward the other in this fight loses. I see Louis drawing Foreman to him. This would set up Foreman to be hit and countered with Louis' cat-quick combinations. I see Louis being too precision and fundamentally sound for Big George. Foreman's power would be dangerous for Louis, and a Foreman knockout win would not be an upset or even a surprise to me, but I'd give the Brown Bomber the edge winning by a lopsided decision or a late stoppage if Foreman tired..........vs.... Ali: This fight we actually had the privilege of seeing. Ali's overall speed and experience provided him a huge advantage. However, what really tilted the fight in Ali's favor was his overall physical strength and cast iron chin, which enabled him to stand up to Foreman's fierce assault. Foreman is made for Ali!

4-Sonny Liston (times knocked down-two) (times stopped-3)

vs.... Louis: This is a real intriguing fight. In the late '50s and early '60s, some historians felt Liston was even greater than Louis. Liston's jab would've been troublesome for Joe, however the difference in this fight would be the overall hand speed of Louis. Louis would be able to get his punches off first and faster, and Louis was a much better combination puncher than Liston. I see Louis winning a comfortable decision. As with Foreman, Liston's power would make him dangerous throughout the fight and a Liston knockout victory can't be considered an upset..........vs.... Ali: Again like with Foreman we saw Ali-Liston, though it wasn't a prime Liston. Ali just has too many weapons along with size, speed, strength, and chin to be defeated by Liston. Like Foreman, Liston is made for Ali.

5-Joe Frazier (times knocked down-10) (times stopped-three)

vs.... Louis: Frazier is tailor made for Louis. Frazier's aggressive attacking style would play into exactly what Louis would've wanted Frazier to do. Louis would catch Frazier clean as he was coming into him. By Frazier coming in, the punch would land with even more impact. Also, Frazier was sometimes vulnerable to being hit with the straight right hand. Louis' right hand was snake like quick with the explosiveness of a stick of dynamite. I see Louis stopping Frazier. If Frazier could make it to the last third of the fight, he may have a shot with his pressure possibly getting to Louis, but I can't see Frazier making it that far..........vs.... Ali: This match-up we saw three times, and we can't thank the Boxing-Gods enough for allowing us the gift of witnessing all three fights!

6-Rocky Marciano (times knocked down-two) (times stopped-0)

vs.... Louis: Yes we saw this but, Louis was shot and 37-years-old. In their prime, I see this fight close to how I see Louis vs.... Frazier. Marciano, like Frazier, applies constant pressure, which is instant death against Louis. Louis would land smashing right hands and devastating right uppercuts to Rocky's head. Marciano is more prone to cuts than Frazier is, but since he doesn't apply quite as much pressure as Frazier, he may last a little longer. I think Louis would decision Marciano or possibly cut him leading to a possible stoppage. Again, like with Frazier, if Rocky is around in the last third of the fight he could stop Louis. However I do see Marciano having a better chance to upset Louis than Frazier.........vs.... Ali: Forget the computer garbage; The computer had Marciano winning in the United States, and Ali winning in Europe. I see Ali-Marciano similar to Ali-Frazier. However, I don't believe Marciano would've been quite as tough on Ali as Frazier was. Marciano didn't cut the ring off as well as Joe, and Frazier had faster hands than Rocky on the inside where Marciano would have to try and force the fight. I think Frazier had a little better head movement then Rocky and was harder to hit as well, which benefits Ali. I see Ali winning a more one sided decision over Rocky than he did Joe, unless he cuts him.

7-Larry Holmes (times knocked down-six) (times stopped-one)

vs.... Louis: I see Holmes doing well vs.... Louis in the early going due to his great left jab. Holmes would make Louis work to get close, however the longer the fight goes I see Louis getting to Holmes and scoring with his short straight right hands inside of Holmes' jab. Once Holmes starts to slow, Louis would be deadly with his body punching against a Holmes whose legs are starting to get heavy. Louis would start landing his explosive right hand and left hooks more regularly, eventually wearing Holmes down and winning a clear-cut decision............vs.... Ali: Unfortunately we saw this fight, only it was a thoroughly shot Ali two months shy of his 39th birthday, facing Holmes at his peak. As anticipated, if both were in their prime, I believe this fight would be painful on the eyes to watch. The problem is, both guys depend on their jab to set up everything they do, and both guys hated to be jabbed at, (see Ali vs.... Jones, Bugner and Young -- see Holmes vs.... Witherspoon, Williams and M. Spinks). Another factor in this match-up would be, which fighter could get the other fighter to assume the aggressors role. Since both guys like to have their opponent come to them, the fighter who is the aggressor is at a disadvantage in this match up. This fight will definitely go the distance because both Ali and Holmes have great chins, and neither have a big enough punch to knock the other out. I see Ali getting Holmes to be the aggressor and having the advantage, along with Ali being a little faster and stronger and having greater stamina. I see him winning a very boring and ugly decision.

8-Evander Holyfield (times knocked down-four) (times stopped-one)

vs.... Louis: The problem for Holyfield in this match-up with Louis is his heart is too big. Holyfield would be only too willing to engage Louis and trade with him. Louis would apply enough pressure on Holyfield so that he would be forced to try and fight back. Holyfield doesn't have the boxing skill or punch to discourage Louis from coming at him. Once this fight becomes a toe-to-toe slugfest, the "Real Deal" would be stopped. I don't see any scenario in which Holyfield beats Louis......... ........ vs.... Ali: This is another match-up that Holyfield has nothing to win with. He can't outbox or out speed Ali , and he's not a big enough puncher to bother him or wear him down. I see Ali circling and boxing Holyfield, being able to pick his spots to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. Ali wins every time, most likely by a decision.

9-Lennox Lewis (times knocked down-two) (times stopped-two)

vs.... Louis: I see Lennox's jab keeping Joe at bay for a short time like Holmes, but again, Joe is too fast and sharp a puncher not to get inside and hit Lennox on his chin. Once Joe is inside, he'd start working on Lennox's body with short crisp left hooks. Once Louis is on the inside, the fight ends. Lennox is such a huge target I can't see him eluding the Louis assault, and no way he stands up to Joe's power. Maybe early onLewis might catch Joe, but I doubt he'd fight aggressively enough facing a fighter with the two handed power of the Brown Bomber, Louis stops Lewis...........vs.... Ali: I don't see Lennox presenting many problems for Ali. Lewis is too big, too cautious and slow to bother Ali, and Lennox is too big a target for Ali to miss. Ali could pick his spots to go in and out whenever he chose to. I see Ali taking Lewis to school, giving him a thorough boxing lesson. The only thing Ali would even have to think about is not running into a Lewis right hand. Even at that, I can't see Lewis' right hand being as dangerous as the left-hook of Frazier or any power punch that Foreman, Liston, or Shavers landed on Ali. Ali wins by lopsided decision.

10-Mike Tyson (times knocked down-four) (times stopped-four)

vs.... Louis: I see Louis getting inside of Tyson's looping right hand and left hook. Tyson has fast hands, but Louis' were also fast, and since Joe throws straight punches, he would beat Tyson to the mark. Once Louis has landed a couple short explosive right hands on Tyson, Tyson would lose his will and confidence, and attempt to try to land one big punch to get Joe out. Once this fails, Tyson will go through the motions as he did with Lennox Lewis until Joe knocks him out. Tyson, like Foreman, Liston, Marciano and Frazier could always get lucky but I don't see it. Louis is too hard a puncher and refined fighter to lose to Tyson............vs.... Ali: Again, I see this playing out like Ali vs... Frazier and Marciano only not as tough for Ali. Tyson doesn't put as much pressure on as Frazier and he's easier to hit. He doesn't take a punch as good as Frazier or Marciano and he's nowhere near as tough as either of them. He has faster hands than either Frazier or Marciano, but against Ali, he still will be out sped. As far as punch goes, Tyson's hook isn't as good as Frazier's, but his right is better. Tyson has a better hook than Marciano, but his right isn't as good. Another big difference here is that Marciano and Frazier got stronger as the fight progressed, where Tyson is at his best in the first couple of rounds. After the third round, he slows down and he doesn't quite carry his punch throughout the fight like Rocky or Joe. To beat Ali, he'd have to get lucky early in the first or second round. Ali defeated better punchers than Tyson and definitely tougher fighters than Tyson. Ali stops Tyson!

Writers Note

The above ranking is my personal opinion of who I think the ten best heavyweight champions are from Joe Louis of 1937 up to Lennox Lewis of May 2003. Remember, to me, head-to-head confrontation means a lot. What determines who is the better fighter? Why is Liston better than Patterson? Patterson is the better technician, more fundamentally sound and was a two-time champion. Patterson also made six defenses of the title compared to one for Liston. However, in a head-to-head meeting, Liston's overall physical strength overwhelms Patterson's skill. So, Liston has to be ranked above Patterson since he defeated him twice. Same with Frazier and Foreman. Frazier made ten title defenses and Foreman made two (Foreman's comeback doesn't come into focus to me, because he wasn't at his best during his comeback. I compare prime vs.... prime). Frazier was a better overall fighter than Foreman and was even a better champion. However, like Patterson with Liston, Frazier was beaten by Foreman's strength and punch. Foreman must be rated above Frazier.

I'm sure my rankings of Frazier, Marciano, and Tyson will cause the most outrage, especially with the fight fans 35 or younger. However, I saw prime Frazier and Tyson, and have all of Marciano's major fights on tape. I have also spoken with some of the trainers and fighters from Rocky's era including Jersey Joe Walcott. So, I'm confident that I have a realistic grasp of his greatness. Some fans dismiss Marciano because they think he was too small at 185-190. What's not widely known is that he walked the street way above 200 in his prime and almost 250 when he retired--and he wasn't a slob, he was solid. His weight came down so low because of how hard and long he trained for his fights. Frazier and Marciano: I constantly go back and forth with regarding who should be ranked over who. I have no problem with anyone who thinks Rocky could have defeated Joe, or ranks him above him.



 

Blade

Juniors
Messages
2,325
That post from Infuzer was certainly a gem of a read.

I know Atilla and Javaman are going to head over here when they get the time (I read Atilla's recent LWOS reply), but I wouldn't mind seeing some others that posted on that thread, and other boxing chats, you linked also C-Steve.

That was the thread that kicked the boxing section at LWOS off...if memory serves me correct :?:

The Greatest Heavyweight was certainly great thread indeed.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Every week or so, i am going to post a couple of pieces I either steal from the internet somewhere or write myself on some of the lesser known guys who can stake claims as the greatest and how they may have legitimate claim to being the greatest. The First is John L Sullivan. John L Was the Muhammad ali of the 1980s. He was a showman like Ali and was famous for his Whiskey Drinking. It was in fact the whiskey which apparently eventually caused his loss in the world boxing championship. As John L Sullivan once said, only whiskey ever licked John L Sullivan.

John L Was the bear knuckle boxing champion of the world but was clearly past his prime when he defended his title against Gentleman Jim Corbett in the first ever gloved heavyweight championship. John L lost that fight by a knockout and as such it can be argued that he never actually held the World Heavyweight championship under current rules.

When considering the greats he is often forgotten because of the lack of footage as well as the incorrect records and the fact that quite simply, their have been such technological advances in all facets that athletes from the pre 1900s dont really cut it with todays athletes. However, that reasoning may not be as solid as it seems.

I would generaly regard Muhammed Ali as having the best heart and chin ever. However, a read of the following article suggests that it may not be as great as John L's. A read of the following story certainly shows to me that John L had a heart which would be more than comparable with the newer generation. That alone, may be enough to give him the titel of the greatest ever.

Even the most die-hard bare-knuckle boxing fan would be hard pressed to tell you much about John Joseph Killian, better known as Jake Kilrain. What they might tell you would be "Jake Kilrain? He was the last man beat by John L. Sullivan using bare-knuckles for the championship of the world". That would not do justice at all to the man who almost became our first modern champion on a hot day in Mississippi, 1889.

Sullivan and Kilrain both were chased around the country by authorities before finally descending upon Richburg to do battle. Most people who boarded the train for the fight didn't know exactly where they were headed either. Even before the fight started, the local sheriff entered the ring to stop the fight. After being handed about $200, he stepped right back out! There is also a report that, contrary to popular belief, this fight technically was NOT bare-knuckle, as the fighters wore skin-tight leather gloves. If this is the case, it only made things worse since the leather would cut skin more easily than bare-knuckles.

There are conflicting stories about how the first round ended. Both say Kilrain rushed out and landed the first solid punch of the match and that the round ended when a man threw his opponent to the ground. In the third round, Sullivan very obviously landed a mean blow below the waistline; despite cries of "Foul!" from the crowd, it was not called. In such an important fight, it was unlikely that the referee, John Fitzpatrick, would be so strict. Kilrain responded by violently throwing Sullivan down.

The fourth round would be the longest of the fight at about fifteen minutes and twenty-one seconds. Kilrain moved in and out and around the giant champion, landing at will. Sullivan reportedly growled, "Why don't you stop and fight, you bastard!" When Kilrain edged over to his corner, Charlie Mitchell, his second, whispered something in his ear. Mitchell and Sullivan had engaged in a fierce battle before and all through this fight, Mitchell taunted the champion. Sullivan roared at him, "I wish I had you in here!" Eventually, Sullivan grabbed the elusive Kilrain around the neck and threw him on his side, landing heavily on him. This would be called a foul if intentional. Again, future mayor and current referee, Fitzpatrick, let the fight go on. Kilrain had to be carried to his corner.

At the start of the fifth round, a red blotch seemed to appear below Kilrain's heart. This was a bull's-eye for Sullivan, who pounded it with blows until it grew purple. Kilrain tried to throw Sullivan but couldn't get a good hold of the man. They struggled until they both exhausted themselves. Kilrain stepped back and bloodied Sullivan's nose, but a heavy punch to Kilrain's neck flattened him.

Many feel that Kilrain ended the sixth round by going down on purpose in just a few seconds in order to save himself. The seventh lasted a few minutes, with Sullivan constantly swearing at Kilrain and throwing him again. The eight round ended with Sullivan clocking Kilrain on the jaw. Kilrain had to be carried to his corner again.

The next few rounds featured Kilrain trying to grab hold of Sullivan's neck. At the end of the eleventh, when he knocked Kilrain down yet again, he stepped over his fallen adversary and kicked him in the stomach!

Sullivan's handlers warned their man that Kilrain was using a strategy of hanging near the corners so that if Sullivan missed with one of his crushing haymakers he would strike the ring post. Sullivan continued to curse Kilrain and tried to hold himself in check near the corners. Kilrain's seconds yelled to the referee in the seventeenth round that Sullivan had resin in his hands. Fitzpatrick made the champion wash his hands. Sullivan then took out his anger on Kilrain by brutally throwing him and then tried to follow up by burying his knee in Kilrain's stomach, but missed. Kilrain again had to be carried to his corner.

The following rounds featured more of the same, with Sullivan throwing his opponent and then trying to follow it up by kicking his man while he was down. At one point, he tried to sit on Kilrain's head!

After Kilrain landed a solid blow to Sullivan's stomach in the 44th round, Sullivan began to vomit. This was likely to the whiskey-enhanced tea that Sullivan was getting in his corner between rounds (Kilrain was also getting plenty of whiskey)! Kilrain would not press the attack while his man was defenseless and offered a draw. Sullivan became enraged, threw his opponent, and stomped him when he was down.

The rest of the fight was a tribute to the strength and endurance of these two warriors. As the temperature climbed, their backs began to slightly blister. The fact that they consumed whiskey instead of water in their corners further stretches the limits of comprehension when you hear that the fight lasted two and a half hours! As the fight progressed, one of Sullivan's eyes was completely closed, but Kilrain couldn't press this advantage.

Both Kilrain and Sullivan were mindless zombies at the end, barely able to make their bodies obey their commands. Kilrain's strength as a fighter was his legendary endurance and heart…he just kept getting back up. The awesome power of John L. Sullivan couldn't keep Kilrain down for good. As Sullivan barely got up from his corner to start the 76th round, Kilrain's second, Mike Donovan, threw in the sponge.

Kilrain never forgave Donovan for this "…unauthorized act…" and felt that he could outlast the champion. Donovan defended his actions, stating that the doctor at the fight insisted Kilrain would die if this abuse continued.

Whatever the result, Kilrain deserves more than a passing reference in bare-knuckle history. He stood up to the power of Sullivan and didn't back down. He may have been able to outlast the champion, but thankfully, the fight was ended and he went on to live a full life with his family and ended the latter half of his life in obscurity. He rarely talked about this fight outside his family. He told his grandchildren great tales of this savage day and to the reporters…almost nothing.
 

mud n blood

Juniors
Messages
595
Pretty hard to compare pugs from different eras and of different styles.

But I voted Tyson, sheerly because he threw the textbook out in destroying blokes like no other. (Forget the last 10 years though!)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Ali and Marciano. Watched just about all their bouts on video. Ali was all class. Marciano was as tough as they get.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Sonny Liston is almost certainly the most underated champion of all time. Until he fought Ali, he was considered everty bit as ferocious as Mike Tyson was in his prime. In fact, physically he is more impressive than Mike was. Without the Ali fights, there is no doubt that Liston would have continued his rampage through the heavyweight ranks for some time and probably he would have retired as champion. The two losses to Ali have him branded as a quitter. This is unfair. Firstly, there is no doubt that when Ali fought Liston, he was one of if not the best ever fighters to step in the ring. A loss, even by knockout, is not a disgrace by any means. Secondly, the links to the mafia mean that there is every reason to believe that the losses may not have been legit (I believe they were).

Anyway, the following article is probably the best guage of Listons claim for greatness, even if it does seem somewhat controversial to say the least.

THE SONNY LISTON CONTEST WINNER!

SONNY LISTON. THE FIGHTER AND THE MOB
BY ARAM "ROCKY" ALKAZOFF


Note: This interesting account of Sonny Liston’s relationship with the mob contains many inflammatory and accusatory statements. These statements are impossible to substantiate, and thus we provide this disclaimer that the statements in Mr. Alkazoff's reflect the opinions of the author and not necessarily of the CBZ or its staff. Whether true or not, this article provides an interesting read, and when the mob is involved with the sport…you never know.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sonny Liston's career is impossible to evaluate, because Sonny Liston was never a legitimate fighter. This isn't to say he couldn't fight. Sonny was a great fighter, with knockout power, a fine chin, boxing ability, ring savvy. and stamina. But Sonny as so many other fighters in boxing was not legitimate each time he stepped in the ring. You as a fan just never knew which Liston would show up. When he made mistakes that were too obvious or unbelievable, it destroyed his credibility as a attraction. He got caught in a terrible bind and basically blackballed. He was too dangerous to fight legally, and could not lay down anymore illegally because he and everyone around him were in scrutiny after he lost the title.

Boxing fans don't like to hear this, and neither do sports fans in general, but many fights in boxing are fixed or helped. Whatever you want to call it. I have spent twelve and one half years in Federal Prison for racketeering crimes, and I knew many top named Mob guys. I knew all of them from Chicago during the peak Liston years. Without mentioning names I am still friends with, and correspond with a few of the biggest in that era even today. These are things that we as ex fighters and boxing fans talked about on a regular basis.

"How the heck can a guy like Fritzie Zivic lose sixty five fights and then beat Sammy Angott, Jake Lamotta, Charley Burley, and beat up Henry Armstrong twice?" I asked _____ ________, my buddy from New York.

"Forget about it Rock," said _____. "They took the handcuffs off of Zivic against Armstrong. They let him kill Armstrong twice, then they put the cuffs back on him against Cochrane."

"What the hell happened to Willie Pep against Tommy Collins and Lulu Constantino?"

"He was gambling heavy and he needed the dough."

"What about Cerdan?"

"Cerdan had to make a deal. He fights straight up against Zale and if he wins, he fights twice against Jake. He dumps the first one with a injury, and they fight the next one on the level. It was the only way Cerdan could get a shot. He was the best middleweight in the world all during the war. It was the only way he could get in. He was from France. He had to do business. George Kantner was in on it."

"What about Louis-Conn number two?"

"Conn was done after the war. He partied the whole war through. Louis was about the same, but Conn had no shot. They were buddies and the money was there. Conn wanted the bread before he quit. He dumped without getting hurt. Made a good bet on it. Art Rooney set it up. Louis was in on it too. Easy money."

"How about Leonard and Duran?"

"Are you kidding? Duran hated Leonard. He owed big money in Colombia, and made the deal. Only thing was he wouldn't lay down, so he quit. He had a choice. Either play ball or keep the lightweight title and fight for peanuts in Panama. The Hearns fight was the same, and the third time against Leonard he didn't even try."

"Leonard?"

"Oh he got plenty of gifts. Early on they made Mando Muniz quit in his corner on a faked injury. Muniz got tired of getting hit so he worked Leonard's body a little. They sent him the word to lay off. Leonard didn't like it in the body. They needed Muniz's name on his record, and Muniz was quitting anyhow. He wanted the money."

That's the kind of conversations we used to have. I heard about plenty. Harold Green laying down for Graziano, Graziano giving it up for Chuck Davey, Jake LaMotta betting against himself in a Cecil Hudson fight, and Jack Dempsey throwing the Jim Flynn fight. These guys were in the mob books, and thick with Frank Carbo, Blinky Palermo, and the Chicago bosses. They knew alot, and you could learn alot being around them.

Sonny Liston was a man they all knew well. It wasn't hard to get fistic as well as personal information from them.

Sonny Liston's relationship to the mob was much like Jack Dempsey's relationship to Tex Richard and Doc Kearns. You had a rough, tough, powerful, uneducated young guy who never had anything, and had known terrible times. They got involved with money guys with clout, and for the first times in their lives they had money and became somebody.

These were different days and the power was in different hands. There were no media spotlights and even a talented fighter like Liston could be left behind without the right friends. Liston, like Dempsey was grateful and felt he owed these people everything. He listened to what they said, and did as he was told. Sonny Liston as Jack Dempsey knew the dark side of life. They didn't want to go back. They learned to eat, dress, talk, and live according to what they saw from their benefactors. Sonny Liston knew poverty and prison. He had no love at home, and knew hunger and beatings from his Father. He was taken from being just another poor, big, tough, Black ex convict to expensive suits, respect, and money in his pocket. He listened and did what he was told. Nobody should ever not believe that.

As a fighter Sonny was one of the greatest heavyweights that ever lived. He had a great jab and any boxing expect knows a great jab can take you very far. It was every bit and better than Joe Louis's. Like Dempsey he had a immense reach for his height,and big fists. He also had the left hook of a Dempsey, and a excellent straight right. If you watch his fights in his prime you can see he also had good legs, stamina, a excellent chin, and fine ring generalship and style.

What many people don't consider about Sonny is that prison hardened him, and trained him to be a disciplined man. It was a discipline that few men out of that type of situation can attain. Coming out of prison he went on to defeat every good amateur heavyweight in the United States including gold medal great Ed Sanders. He became the National Golden Gloves Champion.

No doubt had Sonny tried, with his classic style he would have become a Olympic Champion. His jab alone might have won that for him.

But Sonny was grabbed by people who wanted money, not schoolboy glory and he turned pro. Undefeated he was good enough to beat a very good heavyweight named Johnny Summerlin twice in his sixth and seventh pro fights. In his eighth pro fight he had his jaw broken by Marty Marshall in Detroit. He lost the fight, but bravely finished the fight. Sonny had the guts of a champ. He avenged the loss by knocking out Marshall and outpointing him in two future rematches. People forget that when they brand him a quitter.

Following these, Sonny beat up a cop and did a nine month sentence. All this did was harden him further and toughen him up some more. He spent his prison time training and came out in 1957 and started fighting again after a two year layoff. Something that is not well known. Sonny then went on a rampage. The three year rampage Sonny Liston went on in the heavyweight division has very few parallels in boxing history. Maybe the Jack Dempsey march to the title can compare from 1917 to 1919, but that's about it. Even Joe Louis had to win the title to catch up with Max Schmeling to even up what happened to him on the way up No doubt Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier beat up their divisions also, but their greatest moments came after they won the titles.

Sonny like Dempsey left them battered and beaten. He beat every decent heavyweight in the world in getting to the champion Floyd Patterson. His victims read like a list of top ten heavys of the era. Earnie Cab, Wayne Bethea, Julio Mederos, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Howard King, and Cleveland Williams twice. He crushed them all with only Machen and Bert Whitehurst, two excellent boxers, going the distance with him by backpedalling.

When Sonny got his overdue title shot he proved his greatness by destroying a decent champion Floyd Patterson easily in two back to back one round knockout victories. Not a easy feat to knock out Floyd Patterson twice in one round knockouts. Muhammad Ali couldn't do that, and neither could Jerry Quarry. Floyd also holds victories over Archie Moore, Tommy Jackson, Johansson, Cooper, Bonavena, Cooper, Machen, and got robbed against Jimmy Ellis. Floyd was no bum, and Liston handled him like a kid. At that time Sonny was considered a maneater by every boxing expert and trainer in the world.

What hurt Sonny was the timing of his victory. This was the beginning of the civil rights era, and the beginning of the FBI's battle to remove the Mob's stranglehold on labor unions, entertainment, Los Vegas gambling, and sports. Sonny was immediately and secretly, labeled as a undesirable "Black man" by the NAACP and other Black organizations. President Kennedy and his brother the attorney general were also in on this. The heavyweight title as owned by Joe Louis was very important in forming attitudes of Whites towards Blacks. In this important period in the civil rights battles, it was very positive to have a good role model in the heavyweight champion. Certain powers made it known to organized crime, that Sonny was too dark skinned, his prison record unacceptable, his personality too course, and his managerial ties too incriminating. They made it known that Sonny Liston being champ would bring "heat" on his backers, which was organized crime. It was decided to sell the title.

Cassius Clay was young, handsome, light skinned, olympic golden, and had a personality that was bright and clean. He was a good fighter with good legitimate backers from the South. He was a clean liver and a good draw. His family had a good reputation, and Angelo Dundee was in the camp. He was chosen as the man to get the title.

Sonny Liston was told what to do and he was going to follow orders. The title meant nothing to him, because he wanted to be a second Joe Louis, but what he got was a unforgiving public. He was very bitter about that. But knowing the world, he went for the money as usual.

Sonny Liston also disliked Cassius Clay. He had a prison personality, and he thought Clay was a big mouth and a "sissy". His thoughts were if they were in prison, he would have had Clay intimidated. The few moments that they were alone and unsupervised, and Clay went into his "I am the greatest!" act, and put Liston in the "big ugly bear" position, Liston was furious. He quickly let Clay know that he wasn't going for the joke. On one occasion he slapped Clay, and gave him a further verbal threat.

It was no secret that he disliked what Clay represented, and figured he could beat him without any problem. It was also no secret that Clay was a bit in awe of Liston.

If you watch the first fight you will see what I am describing. Liston is boxing, missing, and putting on a show. Clay is swinging very hard with both hands. Liston took some stinging punches and did not appreciate this at all. He was holding back and he expected the same from Clay. He then asserts himself with a tremendous body attack to let Clay feel his power to teach him a lesson. Clay then complains of something in his eyes, and wants to quit! Angelo Dundee has to push him out of the corner to continue.

"Dundee had to promise him that Liston was in the bag and wouldn't hurt him," said a friend of mine, close to the top of the Chicago mob. "The kid wanted to quit right then and there!"

That round is another in which Sonny punishes Clay's body. The lesson was taught. The next round Liston suddenly stops his aggressive attack, and Clay is back in control. He finally quits, with a shoulder injury the next round. He also had a bruised eye from Clay's stinging jabs.

Cassius Clay had the title, became a tremendous performer, changed his name to Muhammad Ali and became part of our sporting history forever. Sonny Liston got a rematch. It was a money thing.

He disliked Ali, belittled his ability, and hated losing his title to him so much. He wanted to show the world in his mind that everything was a fix. He wanted people to know things were not right in the matches. In his mind if he went down from a playful tap early, people would know, and everyone would still get paid. He did, and he was right; everyone did know, deep down.

No man on earth would beg an animal like Sonny Liston to get up after knocking him down. That would be like Marciano telling Joe Louis to get up, or Archie Moore saying the same to Rocky. No way. But Ali did. He knew what Liston was up to, and he wanted the result to be much more impressive. He knew what was set up for him, and wanted it to be right. Liston made it smell on purpose.

Problem was Sonny had bad strategy. The mob had lost it's power and ran for the hills after the terrible looking knockout. Frankie Carbo, Blinky Palermo and others were getting locked up. Things were changing. If it had been the thirties Liston would have continued on a good career. But not today. On the level no contender wanted to fight him. No way. Even if he was over the hill or old or whatever, no supposed great heavyweight in the golden age of heavyweights wanted to fight Sonny Liston. Muhammad Ali never scored a quicker knockout against anyone than Sonny Liston, but no one who fought Ali wanted to fight Sonny Liston. They all knew what happened in the Ali-Liston fights. The iron hearted, brave Chuvalos, Quarrys, Terrells, Fraziers, etc wanted no part of Sonny Liston. He was blackballed.

Hardly training he crushed the lower tier of heavyweights, the Clarks, Lincolns, Joiners, Johnsons, and the Chuck Wepners. Eventually a wicked shot from a spoiling puncher named Leotis Martin stopped him in a fight he was winning. Sonny was still dangerous, but tired and old. Out of frustration he just retired and spent his money.

How old was Sonny? Tough to say. Prisoners from poor families have no problem hiding their ages. Its routine. Same with immigrants and the rural poor. My father took years off of his age when he came here from the old country, and it was found out after he died that Archie Moore was actually younger! The smart money all said that Sonny Liston was about thirty four when he won his title. He could have won it at least three or four years earlier. He was a great natural fighter with every asset and one of the great heavyweights of all time.

How did he die? The word from those in the know was that Sonny seemed to think that he had carte blanche because of his past and because of those he knew, when it came to gambling. He was let off the hook many times after losses he couldn't pay. In the end bookies got tired of his losses and wanted their money. Sonny then returned to his intimidating physical behavior, refusing to pay. Eventually he lost his protectors and was murdered with a drug overdose. Sonny liked his parties, but was never a drug addict.

The mystery about Sonny Liston was that he was a great fighter who committed a bad "fix" in the new mass communication age. Too many people saw it. He got caught and paid for it. The tragedy was that he was a super fighter that never got appreciated, and should not have been blamed for circumstances about his career and life that might have been beyond his control. He was never forgiven.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Blade said:
That post from Infuzer was certainly a gem of a read.

I know Atilla and Javaman are going to head over here when they get the time (I read Atilla's recent LWOS reply), but I wouldn't mind seeing some others that posted on that thread, and other boxing chats, you linked also C-Steve.

That was the thread that kicked the boxing section at LWOS off...if memory serves me correct :?:

The Greatest Heavyweight was certainly great thread indeed.

Blade, Any news on the return of Attilla and Javaman? And actually while i am here, do yourself and El Duque still roam the forums here?
 

Foz

Bench
Messages
4,124
Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

If Ali and Foreman had fought 10 times how many would Ali have won?

Foreman was the baddest meanest heavyweight I ever saw.
Now whenever I see an interview with him he is the funniest.
Why did you name your 5 sons George?
Being bashed in the head a lot -its easier to remember their names.
 
Messages
2,807
Foz said:
If Ali and Foreman had fought 10 times how many would Ali have won?

.

Seven.


Foreman's transformation from a brooding, monosyllabic monster in those days into the genial personality of today is amazing. He turned into something like Ali as a personality.

I often think what a shame it is that Parkinson's prevented Ali from being a TV personality in his retirement years.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,629
Marciano to me was a great fighter but I don't think he'd compare to guys like Ali.
I rate Tyson very highly, still the youngest world champ ever, he was the most feared man in boxing and his knock out power was frightening. Tyson was also very quick and could dodge punches, like ALi I believe Tyson also lost the best years of his career. I think if he was under Cus D'amato his whole career he could've been anything.
 

OVP

Coach
Messages
11,627
Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Louis and Tyson.

Ali - Watch the "When We Were Kings" documentary for why i regard him as the greatest. It was his brain, more than anything else, that made him so dangerous. He invented the strategy that Rocky 2 stole from him of letting his much bigger opponent, Foreman, hit him and hit him and hit him until he was exhausted, and then knocked him out when he was tired. A boxing "genius". Having said that, he was definitely beatable though. Perhaps a flawed genius, but a genius none the less.

Foreman - Definitely right up there. Boy he was powerful. If you got hit by Foreman you stayed hit. It took a genius like Ali to figure out how to beat him. Huge, strong, powerful, tall ... he had the lot.

Marciano - a strange one. Noone managed to defeat him and yet he wasnt the most talented fighter ive seen. He relied on his own fierce determination more than anything, and thats why i rate him so highly. He's like the Jeff Fenech of ther heavyweights, except Rocky never lost.

Louis, the Brown Bomber - ive only seen old footage of this guy so i cant really nominate him as the best ive seen since i never really saw him. But they were tough days when he fought. Not much padding in the gloves back then and was a true champion for sure. If someone nominated him as the greatest ever, i certainly wouldnt argue. My only regret is that i wasnt born in those days and never really had the chance to see this artist in action. However i have faith in the older generation ... most are totally in agreeance ... he WAS the greatest of all time.

Tyson - What a shame he went nuts after his only father figure died (D'amato). Probably the most feared fighter of them all. Raw unbridled power and extreme speed in both attack and defence were his forte. He could have been the greatest and most feared fighter in human history ... but it wasnt to be. He is a pale imitation of what he used to be. But his early days will remain with me forever... fast, furious, agile, powerful ... he's unforgettable when he was in his prime. If Lewis and Holyfield fought him when he was in his prime, he would have hospitalised the pair of them. I think Tyson has the best knock-out record in heavyweights (44 out of 50 wins). Does anyone have a better ko percentage ?

But who would you nominate to represent you if it meant your own life was at stake ? I mean the boxer who has the best chance of beating any other boxer in history ?

If it meant my life, id nominate Tyson in his prime or George Foreman to beat anyone else.
 

OVP

Coach
Messages
11,627
Btw Bender ... i wanted to thank you. That has to be one of the most interesting and enthralling reads ive come across on this forum. Thank you so much for opening my eyes towards Liston, and especially how corrupt boxing has always been. A truly great read and thankyou for that :)
 

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