THE RED V NOSTALGIA THREAD

[Dragon David]

Lord Ted . Magical drop kick
Wow. He had no room. No time
Yet managed to drop it. Kick it.
In one motion. Leather heavy ball as well
He was so special Lord Ted
One of my favourite players ever
The fans loved Lord Ted
Such an exciting player
Was it recorded in the score. Or I'm confused
1 point ?

Hi Blue Bags

Here are the details of scorers etc below.
Dragons:
3 x tries x 3 points per try = 9 points
6 x try conversions x 2 points per goal = 12 points
1 x field goal x 1 point = 1 point

Total points: 22

Eels:
A big fat 0

NSWRFL 1977 - Grand Final Rep. - St George Dragons 22 def. Parramatta Eels 0 - RLP

Match info page for the St George Dragons vs. Parramatta Eels game in the Grand Final Rep. of the 1977 NSWRFL season. Dragons won 22 to 0 at Sydney Cricket Ground.

www.rugbyleagueproject.org

 

[Willow]

The St George District Rugby League Football Club, which celebrated its century almost four years ago, was officially formed at the Kogarah School of Arts on November 8, 1920.
The newly formed club's team wearing red and white stripes, played their first Premiership match on St George’s Day (how prophetic), April 23, 1921 against Glebe at the Sydney Sports Ground.
The 13 players to take the field that day were: Lyall Wall, Norm Shadlow, Reg Fusedale, Herb Gilbert (c), George Carstairs, Frank Gray, Tommy Burns, Tony Redmond, Clarrie Tye, Sid Field, Roy Bossi, Ernie Lapham, Jack Clark.
Glebe won the encounter 4–3. In fact St George's inaugural season was not a happy one with them winning only two matches , yet they avoided the dreaded wooden spoon, a victory in itself for a new club..

View attachment 93832
Saints 1921 players and officials.

For a more detailed source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1921-1925.php
Larger pic with player names: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/history_team1921.php

Due to its close proximity to Kogarah Oval, the Carlton Hotel became the local watering hole for the players after training.

That'd be the Royal Hotel in Carlton.

Yes known as the Dragon Slayer's
And some called them the Red n Whites
And the Illawarra club

We were never called the Illawarra club. However, there were two publications that briefly mention the name "Illawarraites". It seems that this never caught on.
Dragon Slayers was probably coined by the press (Newspaper: The St George Call most likely first source), and fans took it up to some degree. The Dragons simply evolved from this between the 1930s-1950s.
The most enduring nickname has been "Saints". Fans were calling us the Saints since 1921 and possibly before 1921 when we had a third grade team in the NSWRL.

The RED V won every minor premiership during their GOLDEN ERA with the only exception being 1961 when the NSWRL split the minor premiership prize money between Saints and their bitter rival at the time Wests.

There is some conjecture over this 'exception'. The 1961 Minor Premiership prize money of £250 was indeed shared between Saints and Wests and this supports the view that they were equal Minor Premiers in name and record keeping. Plus keep in mind that there was no for-and-against to decide finalists in those days, if semi-final teams were equal on the ladder they would have play-offs (regardless of the for-and-against). This was true in earlier seasons and subsequent seasons. So therefore, and in my opinion, there no 'exception' here. Both teams were Minor Premiers and Saints had a clean streak as per the rules and conventions of the day.

IMO, the notion that St George came second in the MP in 1961 came about in more recent years as records were getting unearthed. Writers were seeing the old records through modern eyes, when they should be looking at it in the same way that people looked at it in the 1960s. I know I made that same mistake myself, but after digging around I have changed my view.

This means we won 12 Minor Premierships in a row (1956-1967), which is more than an amazing effort.

Such was their dominance up till 1966, the law makers of our game were forced to end the no limit tackle rule to finally halt this rugby league juggernaut.

I believe this to be a myth. They did not bring in the limited tackle rule to stop St George. For a start, the limited (4) tackle rule in Rugby League was first introduced in Great Britain in 1966. The NSWRL in Australia was merely following suit in 1967.
Secondly, Saints had every chance to win another premiership, they adjusted to the new rule and were still the team to beat in 1967.

They still finished as minor premiers and scored more tries than anyone else. The Dragons had every chance to make it 12 premierships in a row.
Source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1967-1969.php

And thirdly, every team had to deal with the new 4 tackle rule. Players from numerous clubs didn't like it but they all had to adjust.

So no, it wasn't the new rule that stopped St George. There were a number of other factors and these are outlined in the link above.

Brian Smith was one of those. The same plonker who selected his useless brother ahead of Peter Coyne and said we had "the smell of Newtown" about us.

I'm pretty sure the "smell of Newtown" quote was in reference to the board.

I had forgotten the sneak thief try by Robert Stone that totally demoralised the Eels and sealed it for us.

Lot of people think that Stone grabbed it from the second row, which i think is incorrect. Reddy after he done his first half collateral damage wasn’t on for most of the second half. So I think you’ll find Stoney went to lock and Beath was in the second row and when the scrum screwed Stone grabbed it and ran which often happened in those days. .

Its interesting that we had Goodwin, Reddy and Shulman three of our most dominate players off for considerable time periods over both the two ‘77 Grand Finals it was a fair effort!

This try happened right in front of me (that is, at the SCG it was in my line of view). Years later, I had the pleasure of meeting Stoney a few times. At our first meeting I simply had to tell him about what I saw in 1977, and that I witnessed him making that break of 30 yards. He immediately insisted it was much further, "at least 40 yards... and it gets longer every year!" lol. The great man had an even greater sense of humour.

And well done to baggygreen man on starting a fine thread. I'm sorry if I came across as 'Adam Ruins Everything' with some of those corrections, but I can't help myself.

 

[baggygreen man]

They did not bring in the limited tackle rule to stop St George.

That was my brothers view actually. In any case why did the NSWRL follow English league with the 4 tackle rule as the no tackle rule had been used successfully since the leagues inception. It is a fair assumption that they as administrators saw that it made the comp more competitive and limited one team from dominating as the Saints had done for the past 11 years. I expect everyone, the administrators, other teams, their supporters, everyone, bar Saints supporters and players, wanted change.

 

[baggygreen man]

Secondly, Saints had every chance to win another premiership,

Naturally they did as they were so good even with adjusting to the new tackle rule. But unlike the past 11 years they fell at the last two hurdles. So the new rule had proven a bridge too far as two other teams better adjusted..

 

[Inisai Toga]

Not sure Baggygreen ….I would say the loss of Kevin Ryan and not being able to replace with the same forward quality as in previous years to accomodate the next rival (Souths) had more impact than the rule change. Not sure about everyone wanting change either. Despite the dominance Saints drew huge crowds and alot didn’t like the 4 tackle rule due to the hurriedness of the play.
After a brief tenure (4 years) they went to six tackle and believe we saw one of the best Grand Finals in 1971.

 

[Dragon David]

For a more detailed source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1921-1925.php
Larger pic with player names: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/history_team1921.php

That'd be the Royal Hotel in Carlton.

We were never called the Illawarra club. However, there were two publications that briefly mention the name "Illawarraites". It seems that this never caught on.
Dragon Slayers was probably coined by the press (Newspaper: The St George Call most likely first source), and fans took it up to some degree. The Dragons simply evolved from this between the 1930s-1950s.
The most enduring nickname has been "Saints". Fans were calling us the Saints since 1921 and possibly before 1921 when we had a third grade team in the NSWRL.

There is some conjecture over this 'exception'. The 1961 Minor Premiership prize money of £250 was indeed shared between Saints and Wests and this supports the view that they were equal Minor Premiers in name and record keeping. Plus keep in mind that there was no for-and-against to decide finalists in those days, if semi-final teams were equal on the ladder they would have play-offs (regardless of the for-and-against). This was true in earlier seasons and subsequent seasons. So therefore, and in my opinion, there no 'exception' here. Both teams were Minor Premiers and Saints had a clean streak as per the rules and conventions of the day.

IMO, the notion that St George came second in the MP in 1961 came about in more recent years as records were getting unearthed. Writers were seeing the old records through modern eyes, when they should be looking at it in the same way that people looked at it in the 1960s. I know I made that same mistake myself, but after digging around I have changed my view.

This means we won 12 Minor Premierships in a row (1956-1967), which is more than an amazing effort.

I believe this to be a myth. They did not bring in the limited tackle rule to stop St George. For a start, the limited (4) tackle rule in Rugby League was first introduced in Great Britain in 1966. The NSWRL in Australia was merely following suit in 1967.
Secondly, Saints had every chance to win another premiership, they adjusted to the new rule and were still the team to beat in 1967.

They still finished as minor premiers and scored more tries than anyone else. The Dragons had every chance to make it 12 premierships in a row.
Source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1967-1969.php

And thirdly, every team had to deal with the new 4 tackle rule. Players from numerous clubs didn't like it but they all had to adjust.

So no, it wasn't the new rule that stopped St George. There were a number of other factors and these are outlined in the link above.

I'm pretty sure the "smell of Newtown" quote was in reference to the board.


This try happened right in front of me (that is, at the SCG it was in my line of view). Years later, I had the pleasure of meeting Stoney a few times. At our first meeting I simply had to tell him about what I saw in 1977, and that I witnessed him making that break of 30 yards. He immediately insisted it was much further, "at least 40 yards... and it gets longer every year!" lol. The great man had an even greater sense of humour.

And well done to baggygreen man on starting a fine thread. I'm sorry if I came across as 'Adam Ruins Everything' with some of those corrections, but I can't help myself.

A great input, thanks Willow.

 

[baggygreen man]

I would say the loss of Kevin Ryan

.. plus Poppa Clay and it was the last season for Ian Walsh and the great Reg Gasnier, no doubt this played a significant part. They, a committed Canterbury and the new rule all combined to end our world premiership dynasty.

 

[Willow]

That was my brothers view actually. In any case why did the NSWRL follow English league with the 4 tackle rule as the no tackle rule had been used successfully since the leagues inception. It is a fair assumption that they as administrators saw that it made the comp more competitive and limited one team from dominating as the Saints had done for the past 11 years. I expect everyone, the administrators, other teams, their supporters, everyone, bar Saints supporters and players, wanted change.

The evidence doesn’t support the assumption.

Rugby League already had a history of not being afraid to change rules to make the game more competitive.

Historically, the administrators want the game to be more entertaining to attract more crowds, make more money and to attract more players. This is in line with the professionalism that culminated in the schism of 1895. The reasons probably lie deep rooted in there.

If you look at the evolution of rugby football and the various codes (including Rugby League, Australian Rules and American Football) that are linked to the origins of the game, it's easy to see that 'radical' change isn’t really that unusual. In 1895, the Northern Rugby Football Union immediately made changes to make the game more competitive. So we're no strangers to this.

There's of course an argument that limited tackle was invented by the Americans with their downs rule, and this influenced the British decision. After all, all the football codes have a common link.

Naturally they did as they were so good even with adjusting to the new tackle rule. But unlike the past 11 years they fell at the last two hurdles. So the new rule had proven a bridge too far as two other teams better adjusted..

Again, there were other reasons.

How do you know other teams were better adjusted to the four tackle rule on 1967? These things should be evidence based.

There's enough to say St George adjusted just as well, if not better, than other teams. Scoring more tries than any other team and being Minor Premiers provides the evidence that supports this view.

 

[Trifili13]

Hey Willow, have you accidentally stumbled into this thread and quoting evidence? Surely with over 100k posts you should know we don't talk about evidence on the Dragon's forum. Let us poor souls fantasise about the good old days when we dominated. Don't take it away from us, we don't have much else these days.

 

[Willow]

Hey Willow, have you accidentally stumbled into this thread and quoting evidence? Surely with over 100k posts you should know we don't talk about evidence on the Dragon's forum. Let us poor souls fantasise about the good old days when we dominated. Don't take it away from us, we don't have much else these days.

G'day Trifili.
I'm reading stuff here every other day. Mostly just for the laughs nowadays.

Here's something that’s not backed by evidence... flimsy at best...

Some years ago, we had a couple of players from the 1977 grand finals that posted in the forums. They didn’t advertise this fact but a couple of us knew.

One of them was a former Parramatta forward.

I asked about the phantom biter, but they were tight lipped and wouldn't dob anyone in. But after some prodding I got this answer: "Mate, they ate us alive that day." lol.

Hope this gets things back on track.

 

[denis preston]

For a more detailed source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1921-1925.php
Larger pic with player names: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/history_team1921.php

That'd be the Royal Hotel in Carlton.

We were never called the Illawarra club. However, there were two publications that briefly mention the name "Illawarraites". It seems that this never caught on.
Dragon Slayers was probably coined by the press (Newspaper: The St George Call most likely first source), and fans took it up to some degree. The Dragons simply evolved from this between the 1930s-1950s.
The most enduring nickname has been "Saints". Fans were calling us the Saints since 1921 and possibly before 1921 when we had a third grade team in the NSWRL.

There is some conjecture over this 'exception'. The 1961 Minor Premiership prize money of £250 was indeed shared between Saints and Wests and this supports the view that they were equal Minor Premiers in name and record keeping. Plus keep in mind that there was no for-and-against to decide finalists in those days, if semi-final teams were equal on the ladder they would have play-offs (regardless of the for-and-against). This was true in earlier seasons and subsequent seasons. So therefore, and in my opinion, there no 'exception' here. Both teams were Minor Premiers and Saints had a clean streak as per the rules and conventions of the day.

IMO, the notion that St George came second in the MP in 1961 came about in more recent years as records were getting unearthed. Writers were seeing the old records through modern eyes, when they should be looking at it in the same way that people looked at it in the 1960s. I know I made that same mistake myself, but after digging around I have changed my view.

This means we won 12 Minor Premierships in a row (1956-1967), which is more than an amazing effort.

I believe this to be a myth. They did not bring in the limited tackle rule to stop St George. For a start, the limited (4) tackle rule in Rugby League was first introduced in Great Britain in 1966. The NSWRL in Australia was merely following suit in 1967.
Secondly, Saints had every chance to win another premiership, they adjusted to the new rule and were still the team to beat in 1967.

They still finished as minor premiers and scored more tries than anyone else. The Dragons had every chance to make it 12 premierships in a row.
Source: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1967-1969.php

And thirdly, every team had to deal with the new 4 tackle rule. Players from numerous clubs didn't like it but they all had to adjust.

So no, it wasn't the new rule that stopped St George. There were a number of other factors and these are outlined in the link above.

I'm pretty sure the "smell of Newtown" quote was in reference to the board.


This try happened right in front of me (that is, at the SCG it was in my line of view). Years later, I had the pleasure of meeting Stoney a few times. At our first meeting I simply had to tell him about what I saw in 1977, and that I witnessed him making that break of 30 yards. He immediately insisted it was much further, "at least 40 yards... and it gets longer every year!" lol. The great man had an even greater sense of humour.

And well done to baggygreen man on starting a fine thread. I'm sorry if I came across as 'Adam Ruins Everything' with some of those corrections, but I can't help myself.

Agree wholeheartedly Willow. Walsh & Clay were shadows of the players they were and Raper & Gaz were on the down slide. Ryan should have replaced Walsh as captain but him leaving did not help.
Normally Facer would open the cheqbook and buy whoever he wanted but other teams licenced clubs were providing opposition in the market for signatures. Two new sides in the comp didn’t help either. Facers game was slipping too with strange decisions like paying huge money for two 5/8ths in Branson & Hawthorn & a winger in Trevor Lake. Anyhow I degrees, 4 tackle had nothing to do with our demise.

 

[baggygreen man]

Walsh & Clay were shadows of the players they were and Raper & Gaz were on the down slide.

Agree Denis that being the main reason. Did not know about Facers problem replacing our retiring greats. Reckon Raper still had plenty to offer, as only four years since his demolition of England at Swinton. His absence at the GF was a telling reason too why we lost.

 

[baggygreen man]

edit

 

[Slippery Morris]

Hoping someone can confirm if true. Apparently Facer played a role in changing borders to allow Saints to poach players from other clubs. Back then players from certain areas can only represent a club in that district. Facer somehow decided to move borders around to suit Saints to bring in certain players from other regions. Another was that there was an emerging Wests team that was coming through and Facer was able to get most of that team to come to Saints and then had them play in reserves to eliminate any threat to the Saints. If true, Bullfrog & Gus are amateurs compared to the great Frank Facer.

Would love someone to clarify this. I was $hit talking his club and then this came up and not sure if it was true of BS to support his clubs cheating ways.

 

[denis preston]

Residential rule. Signed players had to live on the area. Raper listed in unit at Ramsgate but really never left his Revesby home . this unit must have had 10 players living in it !
Whilst Dragons had very strong Reggie’s they never brought Wests players for the simple reason that Wests themselves went on a major buying spree in the early 60’s buying Diamond , Oshea, Kelly, Summons, Wells & Mobray So that statement from your mate is bullshit. We did buy Huddart so nobody else could!

 

[Willow]

Hoping someone can confirm if true. Apparently Facer played a role in changing borders to allow Saints to poach players from other clubs. Back then players from certain areas can only represent a club in that district. Facer somehow decided to move borders around to suit Saints to bring in certain players from other regions. Another was that there was an emerging Wests team that was coming through and Facer was able to get most of that team to come to Saints and then had them play in reserves to eliminate any threat to the Saints. If true, Bullfrog & Gus are amateurs compared to the great Frank Facer.

Would love someone to clarify this. I was $hit talking his club and then this came up and not sure if it was true of BS to support his clubs cheating ways.

The now defunct residential rule had plenty of flaws and loopholes, it didn’t need a Club Secretary to fiddle with it.

Money was ONE lure and St George were posting 400% profit figures in the 1960s. This enabled them to get Johnny Raper away from Newtown and pay him to sit out a year. This is often used as an example.

But Raper wasn't initially interested in the money. He was also attracted by the training and coaching methods at St George, which were far superior at the time.

He said it was "a completely different ball game" at St George. I'm sure other players felt the same way.

Audio of Johnny Raper: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/sound/sh_raperspeaks.wav

A mate gave Raper the advice: "You'll only end up with broken shoulders at Newtown, but at St George you'll get ahead in life." Raper himself is the source (audio above), he re-quoted it for years afterwards.

Wests were known as the millionaires because they bought so many players, but were ultimately unsuccessful. So you needed more than money to win a premiership. This is probably the reason why they were so pissed off with losing the 1963 grand final - three years of investment for nothing, easier to blame the ref than the boardroom.

Never heard about border shifting. Without any proof, it sounds like gossip. You'll find there's a lot of jealously out there, even after all these years.

More: https://jubileeavenue.com/history/1956-1959.php

 

[zombiebloodlust]

Supposedly he was with someone (Ross Cameron) who pulled a gun on the Club Secretary.

Someone said he went on the field.
Not sure many moons ago.

 

[justadragon]

Hey you old diehards, can someone please tell me who was our first mascot, I can only remember the happy dragon, or did we even have one ?

 

[baggygreen man]

Some rubbished my post/pic about Saints running players up/down sand hills as part of their training regime, saying that it was fitness guru Percy Cerutty who did that with his athletes, one of which was Olympic champion Herb Elliot. Norm Provan introduced the same training method when he became captain/coach, choosing Cronulla/ Wanda hills.
Can you confirm this @Willow.

And well done to baggygreen man on starting a fine thread. I'm sorry if I came across as 'Adam Ruins Everything' with some of those corrections, but I can't help myself.

Just a touch @Willow, apology accepted. I have been unable to change my u/n but prefer to be called by my signature name of REDVHEARTBEAT instead.

 

[baggygreen man]

For those that missed this when first announced, below is the:

‘Never Before, Never Again Team Of The '56-'66 Era:

Starting Team
Fullback: Graeme Langlands
Wing: Eddie Lumsden
Centre: Reg Gasnier
Centre: Billy Smith
Wing: Johnny King
Five-Eighth: Brian Clay
Halfback: Bobby Bugden
Prop: Kevin Ryan
Hooker: Ken Kearney
Prop: Billy Wilson
Second-Row: Harry Bath
Second-Row: Norm Provan
Lock: John Raper

Interchange
Ian Walsh
Monty Porter
Elton Rasmussen
Brian Graham

Cant argue with this, except I'd have had Billy Smith at half over Bobby Bugden, purely due to brilliant the partnership developed between Smith and Raper. Bugden or Johnny Riley then slot into centre.