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SDM

First Grade
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7,600
To be fair, religion has always had a massive say in politics. Realistically it wasn't until America's formation that the idea of secular governments found any real foundation. But at one stage the best way people knew how to light a fire was to bash two rocks together


lol@twizzle
 
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2,966
I'm talking about any place that indulges in state-sponsored oppression of religion. Like China, for example.

To correlate "state sponsored oppression" as being synonymous with atheism is totally laughable.

The only reason that atheism is a "threat" is because of reason itself.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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92,323
China haven't oppressed religion since the 80s. Their government is just separate from all churches (how it should be. I'm looking at you Messrs Abbott and Fielding). If you are merely talking about the past, then I take back my comments

No, China is oppressing religion right now.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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92,323
Exactly. And that's why we need to move away from these third world countries where the dominant religion influences government policies. And as multicultural as Australia is, having the five main religions attempting to influence policies is bad enough, let alone the smaller ones.

If the majority of people are fairly represented by the government then they should have a majority of a say in the formation of policy. This is the foundation of democracy.

There are all manner of (self-)interest groups attempting to influence policy in Western states. Why should only the religious ones be excluded? Or more to the point, who has the right to decide who is and isn't excluded from influencing government policy? It is either representative or it isn't.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
If the majority of people are fairly represented by the government then they should have a majority of a say in the formation of policy. This is the foundation of democracy.

There are all manner of (self-)interest groups attempting to influence policy in Western states. Why should only the religious ones be excluded? Or more to the point, who has the right to decide who is and isn't excluded from influencing government policy? It is either representative or it isn't.

Well I was sort of going down the angle of where government policy influences or forces a person to follow a particular religion if they want to be accepted into that country, some countries do that unfortunately.

In Australia we don't have a majority religion anymore. You can say the majority are Christians but in reality the majority of Australians are non religious, and out of those who are religious the majority may be Christians.
 

84 Baby

Referee
Messages
29,953
No, China is oppressing religion right now.
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/zjxy/t36492.htm
I know it's over a decade old, but the extent of their religious oppression is saying those of religion can only be of Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, Catholic and/or Protestant faiths. Obviously there is some oppression there because noone can organise a gathering to worship Hinduism or any other religion. But essentially if you're Roman or Greek Catholic, you just say you're Catholic, if you're Sunni or Shia, you just say you're Islamic. Some oppression but hardly militant. In fact I see it as a great way to harmonise intra-religion hostility, seriously if you were Shiite and the only temple in 1000kms was Sunni and you were truly religious, would you forsake going to that temple just because they give more importance to a single text than you do?
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,323
Well I was sort of going down the angle of where government policy influences or forces a person to follow a particular religion if they want to be accepted into that country, some countries do that unfortunately.

In Australia we don't have a majority religion anymore. You can say the majority are Christians but in reality the majority of Australians are non religious, and out of those who are religious the majority may be Christians.

And does that make it acceptable for the atheist majority to vilify the minorities? As far as I can tell we have laws in place to protect minorities from the kind of vilification you describe. Certainly these minority groups - even large minorites - shouldn't be excluded from representation in a pluralist government.
 

JoeyJoJo83

Juniors
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787
HelenLovejoy.jpg
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
And does that make it acceptable for the atheist majority to vilify the minorities? As far as I can tell we have laws in place to protect minorities from the kind of vilification you describe. Certainly these minority groups - even large minorites - shouldn't be excluded from representation in a pluralist government.

Absolutely not. But how do you define the term athiest and athiest majority?

I don't have religious beliefs at this stage in my life but I don't like being called an athiest. That is a term derived for people that don't necessarilly believe in a god, but they shouldn't be lumped into one whole category and called a 'majority'.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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92,323
http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/zjxy/t36492.htm
I know it's over a decade old, but the extent of their religious oppression is saying those of religion can only be of Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, Catholic and/or Protestant faiths.

Not only that, but you have to belong to the government approved branch of each of those religions, and have your specific beliefs subject to scrutiny and approval.

Obviously there is some oppression there because noone can organise a gathering to worship Hinduism or any other religion. But essentially if you're Roman or Greek Catholic, you just say you're Catholic, if you're Sunni or Shia, you just say you're Islamic. Some oppression but hardly militant.

Except when you consider that any form of protest against this oppression is met with intimidation, if not outright violence.

In fact I see it as a great way to harmonise intra-religion hostility, seriously if you were Shiite and the only temple in 1000kms was Sunni and you were truly religious, would you forsake going to that temple just because they give more importance to a single text than you do?

Religion doesn't work that way - a religion is a holistic ideology that needs to be expressed and understood in its entirety. It is much greater than the sum of its parts which is why religion isn't able to be analysed piecemeal. Every part of it needs to be considered in context of the rest. This is why artistic and social thinkers have always had more success understanding religion than scientific minds have.

Therefore if you feel those people are perverting your religion, despite it being 'sort of' like your own then you're probably not going to feel comfortable experiencing their religion with them. In many ways it's similar to the uncanny valley of robotics, and why the hostilities within a religion can be more vicious than those between them.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
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92,323
Absolutely not. But how do you define the term athiest and athiest majority?

I don't have religious beliefs at this stage in my life but I don't like being called an athiest. That is a term derived for people that don't necessarilly believe in a god, but they shouldn't be lumped into one whole category and called a 'majority'.

Yeah that's quite a modern phenomenon - to not want to be considered part of the majority. I suspect part of the appeal for many atheists is the desire to feel persecuted without actually having to experience persecution.

Because in the soft gentle West, nobody is actually persecuted any more. Still, they hurry to bring up the crusades and the inquisition.

Look, now I've gone and done it. :(
 

SDM

First Grade
Messages
7,600
As long as we have mormons and scientologists, you don't need to fear your religon is the stupidest on earth.
 

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