Ultrathread I: Thread of the Year - 2014

[RHCP]

I presume you are referring to his stance on guns. Answer me one question (quote from David in the article): why should criminals and the state be the only ones to possess guns? Gun control takes weapons away from law abiding citizens only.

A better question: what is a killer before he pulls the trigger? A law abiding citizen...

I'm happy to not have access to a gun if it means my kids won't be at risk of having their schools and universities attacked.

 

[Jason Maher]

That last statement is pure fallacy. While it's true that some criminals have access to guns via illegal channels, it makes it vastly more difficult (and more expensive) for those outside of law enforcement to get their hands on them.

We still get the occasional shooting in Australia, but that number would surely rise if every dude with a grievance or petty criminal could get his hands on them easily.

I assume you're not questioning the concept of law enforcement having weapons but citizens not, since it's basically what organized civilisation has been based on since well before guns existed.

If an armed person breaks into your house and you are unarmed, law enforcement will be no use to you, other than investigating the cause of your demise.

And yes, I am very much questioning the state being armed while the citizens are unarmed. That way lies tyranny.

 

[Jason Maher]

A better question: what is a killer before he pulls the trigger? A law abiding citizen...

I'm happy to not have access to a gun if it means my kids won't be at risk of having their schools and universities attacked.

Strict gun laws did nothing to protect the young people murdered by Anders Behring Breivik. If anything, they made his job easier, as there was no chance of an armed response.

 

[Misanthrope]

If an armed person breaks into your house and you are unarmed, law enforcement will be no use to you, other than investigating the cause of your demise.

How many armed people are breaking into houses right now in Australia? I'm talking guns - not knives and hammers.

I can guarantee you that the number goes up if guns are made easier to purchase.

And seriously, if people who look at the world differently to you fill you with fear or make you ill, I'd suggest the problem lies with you.

Nice try.

Nobody has said a man with a different opinion fills them with fear or makes them ill.

They've said a man in a position to influence policy with those kind of opinions does.

I don't fear you and your opinions - but I'd fear for our country if guys like Bat-Shit McGunNut were suddenly in a position to bring them back.

There are people out there who think incest is cool. They're welcome to that opinion - but I don't want them introducing it into Australian government policy.

 

[Jason Maher]

People have an inalienable right to defend themselves and their family however they see fit. The government has no legitimate right to take away the legal right nor the means to do so (our government has done both - there is no legal right to self defence in Australia).

 

[Misanthrope]

People have an inalienable right to defend themselves and their family however they see fit. The government has no legitimate right to take away the legal right nor the means to do so (our government has done both - there is no legal right to self defence in Australia).

I agree with you on the fact we have an inalienable right to defend ourselves. I find the idea that if somebody attacks me and threatens my well-being and I beat them to death with a brick - I could go to jail, to be completely abhorrent.

But when did guns become a part of that right? They've hardly been a part of human society since the dawn of civilization.

Why not swords? Bring back swords, I say. Let skill at arms decide who lives and who dies, rather than eyes squeezed shut and trigger squeezed.

P.S. I'm only against incest because my relatives are ugly. I support your right to sibling love, whoever you are!

 

[Drew-Sta]

I presume you are referring to his stance on guns. Answer me one question (quote from David in the article): why should criminals and the state be the only ones to possess guns? Gun control takes weapons away from law abiding citizens only.

Martin Bryant was a law abiding citizen until Port Arthur. Your argument is pathologically flawed.

The whole left-right paradigm is bullshit. The correct paradigm is individual freedom and autonomy vs collective state power.

Again, bullshit. Government is the formation of people to organise themselves. Its perversion is damaging, true, but name me the last country to run on the ideology you purport?

Oh, wait - it doesn't exist...

And seriously, if people who look at the world differently to you fill you with fear or make you ill, I'd suggest the problem lies with you.

He doesn't scare me. The effects of his ideology scares me.

If an armed person breaks into your house and you are unarmed, law enforcement will be no use to you, other than investigating the cause of your demise.

And yes, I am very much questioning the state being armed while the citizens are unarmed. That way lies tyranny.

Two armed people always come to blows. One person being armed and another being unarmed tends, funnily enough, to end with less conflict.

Also, we've had armed cops since we were formed. Has Australia been a tyranny?

People have an inalienable right to defend themselves and their family however they see fit. The government has no legitimate right to take away the legal right nor the means to do so (our government has done both - there is no legal right to self defence in Australia).

The government aren't taking away the right to defend yourself, JM. They are taking away weapons. I can defend myself quite happily. I might use my brain in doing so though, rather than just expect a gun to solve all my issues when I'm threatened.

 

[afinalsin666]

I've been on the end of gang violence, and i thank f**k that guns aren't around every day. Sure, my dad could have kept a gun and blown them away when they came at us, attacking my old nan with a screw driver and throwing a steel rod at a pram that my 6 month old cousin was in. Sure, it would have been great if we had more to defend ourselves with than our own strength, and me being 11 at the time, there wasn't much there.

Would have been great if the cops did anything about it, even though their squad car drove past a group of 15 people armed to the hilt still facing us and screaming. Would have been great if they didn't threaten to arrest and mace me when i told them they are f**king useless.

But the fact is, Dad would be in jail, the thugs would have been armed with more than shed tools, and chances are a couple of us would have been dead. Philosophical arguments are all well and good, but in actual reality, guns are f**ked.

 

[Misanthrope]

I've been on the end of gang violence, and i thank f**k that guns aren't around every day. Sure, my dad could have kept a gun and blown them away when they came at us, attacking my old nan with a screw driver and throwing a steel rod at a pram that my 6 month old cousin was in. Sure, it would have been great if we had more to defend ourselves with than our own strength, and me being 11 at the time, there wasn't much there.

Would have been great if the cops did anything about it, even though their squad car drove past a group of 15 people armed to the hilt still facing us and screaming. Would have been great if they didn't threaten to arrest and mace me when i told them they are f**king useless.

But the fact is, Dad would be in jail, the thugs would have been armed with more than shed tools, and chances are a couple of us would have been dead. Philosophical arguments are all well and good, but in actual reality, guns are f**ked.

Sweet f**k, where did this happen?

 

[HowHigh]

It's not like criminals can't get guns easily enough already.

I think you should be able to do whatever it takes to defend yourself and family if someone enters your home meaning to do you harm.

 

[HowHigh]

I've been on the end of gang violence, and i thank f**k that guns aren't around every day. Sure, my dad could have kept a gun and blown them away when they came at us, attacking my old nan with a screw driver and throwing a steel rod at a pram that my 6 month old cousin was in. Sure, it would have been great if we had more to defend ourselves with than our own strength, and me being 11 at the time, there wasn't much there.

Would have been great if the cops did anything about it, even though their squad car drove past a group of 15 people armed to the hilt still facing us and screaming. Would have been great if they didn't threaten to arrest and mace me when i told them they are f**king useless.

But the fact is, Dad would be in jail, the thugs would have been armed with more than shed tools, and chances are a couple of us would have been dead. Philosophical arguments are all well and good, but in actual reality, guns are f**ked.

Damn that's f**ked up dude, lucky you are all okay.

 

[afinalsin666]

The Terrace. Shithole of a place.

 

[Misanthrope]

The Terrace. Shithole of a place.

One of my good mates lives out there these days. Surprised to hear it's that bad.

We always joke about it being a shithole, but I never thought of it as dangerous. Sorry you and your family had to go through that.

 

[afinalsin666]

It's not as bad as the old days, early 2000's was f**ked. Cops wouldn't touch anyone because they were aborigine and under 18. Not a good mix, especially when they know they are untouchable. No idea how i'm not racist coming from all that :lol:

It's backed off since one of the boys i went to school with got gunned down a few years back.

 

[Drew-Sta]

It's not like criminals can't get guns easily enough already.

I think you should be able to do whatever it takes to defend yourself and family if someone enters your home meaning to do you harm.

Explain to me how it is easy for criminals to get guns? Especially when the only legal way to get gins means you have to take a criminal background check.

Which means they have to get them illegally. And that makes it harder to get them.

Also, we seem to assume every criminal has a gun. This is also not true.
Most burglars do not possess them.

 

[thorson1987]

Explain to me how it is easy for criminals to get guns? Especially when the only legal way to get gins means you have to take a criminal background check.

Which means they have to get them illegally. And that makes it harder to get them.

Also, we seem to assume every criminal has a gun. This is also not true.
Most burglars do not possess them.

They seem to do a pretty bang up job of getting them illegally Drew.

 

[afinalsin666]

Criminals are, by and large, great networkers. Every guy worth a shit knows a guy who can hook him up. I'm pretty sure i could put my hands on one, and i definitely ain't shit.

It's pretty hard to imagine just how tight it all is. Everyone knows everyone.

 

[HowHigh]

Explain to me how it is easy for criminals to get guns? Especially when the only legal way to get gins means you have to take a criminal background check.

Which means they have to get them illegally. And that makes it harder to get them.

Also, we seem to assume every criminal has a gun. This is also not true.
Most burglars do not possess them.

No offence but your post seems a little ignorant. I'm not going to go into detail but it really isn't that hard. Just look at the gun crimes in Sydney for example, do you think they all went and applied for a gun license?

And not every criminal has a gun, who assumes that?

 

[Misanthrope]

No offence but your post seems a little ignorant. I'm not going to go into detail but it really isn't that hard. Just look at the gun crimes in Sydney for example, do you think they all went and applied for a gun license?

And not every criminal has a gun, who assumes that?

Your argument has a fundamental flaw. Just because some criminals are able to get guns now, we should make it easier by legalizing them again?

As it is now, a person wishing to buy a gun runs the risk of being caught buying one illegally. Having one on his person is, likewise, a crime.

If guns were made readily available again, you eliminate two very real opportunities for law enforcement to catch a potentially violent offender.

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Both you and thorson give the impression that there are criminals all over the place carrying guns, when statistically those with guns and using them violently at this point in time are a minority in a much larger group.

That would change pretty quickly if they were more readily available.

 

[HowHigh]

Your argument has a fundamental flaw. Just because some criminals are able to get guns now, we should make it easier by legalizing them again?

As it is now, a person wishing to buy a gun runs the risk of being caught buying one illegally. Having one on his person is, likewise, a crime.

If guns were made readily available again, you eliminate two very real opportunities for law enforcement to catch a potentially violent offender.

---------

Both you and thorson give the impression that there are criminals all over the place carrying guns, when statistically those with guns and using them violently at this point in time are a minority in a much larger group.

That would change pretty quickly if they were more readily available.

lol when did I ever say I wanted to legalise them?
What you're saying is correct but you're arguing against a point that I never made.

For John Citizen yeah, getting a gun illegally would be hard, but if you know the right people it isn't. I'm not saying in any way that I do but it's still true regardless.

And to add to that, the availability of them doesn't mean that everybody who can get one does, just saying that the availability is there for a certain minority if they chose to.