Union v League. Why League will win.

[imported_Roopy4246]

League has always been a game focused on pleasing fans who view the game from the stands, while Union has always been a game focused on pleasing the players of the game. Union has managed to gain a playing base in many countries around the world, while League has developed a stronger support base in any area where the two games have gone head to head (Northern England and Australia). The reason behind these facts is that League has always been professional and Union has always been amatuer. League has been focused on making money for the players, while Union has been focused on making the players happy with the game.
All this changed when Union went professional. The two games are now trying to fulfill the same role - i.e. they are trying to 'sell' a product. Union has made dozens of subtle changes over the last 5 years, and all of these changes have been designed to make the game more attractive to the fans in the stands. The end result of all these changes is to make the game more 'League-like.'
The point I am trying to put across is that Union is rapidly changing into a pale imitation of League. They are stealing our players, our coaches, our tactics and our rules. The end result is that they are proving that we have the best players, coaches, tactics and rules.
We set out to develop a game for the fans 90 years ago, while Union set out on the same journey 5 years ago. It is no surprize that they are now imitating us for all they are worth.
As I see it, the end result of all this will be the two games coming together. The final game will far more resemble League than Union.
All we have to do to win the Rugby war is to wait till they capitulate by taking on our rules in their entirety.
The more players who go to Union the better. Andrew Walker and Jason Robinson are doing their bit to make Union look more and more like a pale imitation of League, and Sailor, Rogers and Paul will just add to this impression.
Going professional was the death knell for Union. It survived as an amatuer game in a world that had gone beyond that point, but it is doomed as a professional sport.

 

[G@v]

I agree Roopy! I am amased at the stupidity of the prophets of doom who claim that our sport is finished. They (Union) seem to think that League fans will follow the players and coaches over to the inferior code. All RL fans need do is wait, just a few years, see how Union starts to develope, we can be smart about this, or act dumb in a reactionary manner.

Union needs fans at club level to sustain any more growth, and unless they change their rules, the way their game is perceived by the casual sports fan, then they are the one's in most trouble. League has survived for 106 years, it is a game which seems to thrive on adversity, how many times over the past century has League's demise been predicted?

Union buffs can argue until the cows come home about their supposed multi-dimensional game, the fact is, that style of Rugby that they cherish is on the way out, notout of choice, but because of the hard facts of lifeas aprofessional sport. Welcome to the real world should be phrase on everyones lips. Whereasour gamedeveloped and evolved over 90 odd years, they are being compelled to do a crash course in Rugby evolution, and I feel it's maybe a bit too fast for them, hence the need for League talent to help them along, and the more talent means faster change!

Meanwhile, back in the club bar all is not well. Players are no doubt discussing what future for them in this new game, with the threat of interlopers invading their territory. Could there be a breakaway Union plan B on the cards if this blows up in their sorry faces? After all, which players will be best suited to an evolved Rugger, those coached in the League game, or those coached in the old ways of kick and clap?

 

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[imported_Roopy4246]

Tekaha,
You are obviously a Kiwi who has a lifelong knowledge of Union and a deep appreciation of the skills of the game.
I'm sorry to say that the arguments you put up only convince me more that neophyte fans will never take to Union in its present form and administrators will be forced to make drastic changes to appeal to the 'great unwashed.'
Arguing these points on the Union board the other day eventually produced the responce that Union fans did not want changes to take place and definately did not want League fans to 'invade' their game, but commercial realities dictate that Union must attempt to attract more fans if it wishes to grow.
Kiwi fans have been raised on a diet of top quality Union and this has given you all an understanding of the finer points of the game, but these finer points will always be a mystery to most of us.

 

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[imported_kier]

Badminton, table tennis, squash, racketball, basketball, volleyball and waterpolo are played in more countries than RU (and RL)

These sports are also played "seriously" in far more countries than RU (or RL).

I'm not trying to debunk all you've said Tekaha - but the whole situation is far more complicated than you've stated.

For example I'm sure if you added togethor all the RL players in Aus (including all school, Oz tag and touch players) and subtracted all the Aus RU players (whichDO include all schoolboys.....etc) - then I'm sure the difference would be similar to ALL the RU players outside of Australia, NZ, SA, France and GB.

 

[imported_Lord Ted]

The first indication that a change is likely will be when the number of players on the field is subject to a media campaign.That may apply to either code.After all it was only a few years ago that there was a kite flown about altering League from a13 man game to an 11 man game.

 

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[imported_kier]

Again I'm not really disagreeing Tekaha - I think perhaps we're at slight cross purposes.

It seems to me that RU has taken the decision to create a pro CLUB structure - when the bedrock of this, a dedicated/tribal fanbase does not exist.

Here in the UK all the revenue being created is going backwards to clubs to pay for wages that are not being sustained. Since 1995 the top UK RU clubs have spent (wasted?) over £150,000,000.........approx NZ$500,000,000!

Now - RU does have an incredibly viable international structure - good crowds, good sponsorship, good TV deals.

It seems to me that this is the choice RU faces - does it focus itself as an international game - like athletics, swimming, hockey......where the national teams are the only real consideration. Or does it continue to attempt to produce fully pro domestic comps?

Looking at attendances - I'd say I have to agree with much of what Roopy says......the week in week out support will only come with changes to the rules of RU.

It doesn't have to "become" RL - there are always other options - and it will perhaps alwaysretain nuances (lineouts, rucks....etc), but I think it is fair to say that RU has already changed.

It is totally different to the sporrt I played until I was 20........and it isn't even the same as it was in 1995.

The "economic considerations" that Peter Wheeler spoke about also have brought about their own changes to the game of RU - just as they have done to ALL codes of football that have had to take into account the needs of spectators.

 

[Marcus]

Roopy,

Going professional was the death knell for Union. It survived as an amatuer game in a world that had gone beyond that point, but it is doomed as a professional sport.

You are so wrong that it sounds funny. Rugby Union is so damn successful. Club Rugby in Europe is very healthy. The Super 12 is awesome, and it will be expanding to Super 14 in 2003. Going professional was the best thing that ever happen to Rugby, and I was so thrilled when it did.

The NRL in Australia is crappy. Score lines have been huge. Fans can't be bothered going to the games, and now the NRL is going to have 15 or 16 teams next year. But the thing is they are broke. Which team will get the 15th spot? Manly or Norths. Don't care really, but I bet this matter will go to the courts.

The Storm might be moving back north and abandoning Melbourne. Why? Because if Manly gets the license for the 15 team, they will want to play their games at Brookevale not Gosford. Thus leaving the Central Coast unattended. The most likely senario to follow would see the Storm play at Gosford thus leaving Melbourne for the 4 Australian Super 14 team.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

Keep talking Marcus, you have talked yourself into believing it, so someone else has to believe sooner or later.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

BTW, I think the game that was Rugby Union before it went professional is already dead and buried. The game has already changed dramatically and the process has only just begun. Rugby Union in 2005 will have almost nothing in common with Rugby Union of 1995.

 

[G@v]

And many Union fans who were against change will no doubt try and pretend that the new game is the bees knees. The rest will have defected to field hockey or rowing! )

 

[G@v]

For yet more unbiased crap from those RU apologists at the Sunday Times......is there a Goebbels award for journalism?
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/frontpage.html?999

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

Roopy, GavBT - why are you wasting your time arguing with our little friend, Marcus? He is clearly out of your league. I fail to see how either of you could have the arrogance to believe that you can combat arguments such as "The Super 12 is awesome" and "The NRL in Australia is crappy". Of course, Marcus doesn't provide any credible reasons to prove his point. But he doesn't need to, does he? After all, it's there for all to see. Look at the huge presence that the Super 12 has on free-to-air television - sometimes you can even see a match before midnight. And don't forget the big one - the Super 12 grand final. I think we all remember what a ratings bonanza that was for the seven network. Also, don't forget how the Super 12 is able to turn seemingly average league players into representative stars. After all, Andrew Walker never played state of origin and, in fact, spent quite a lot of time on the Sydney Roosters bench. However, aftertwo seasons of Super 12 he is already an integral part of the mighty Wallabies. And what about Junior Pelesasa - you know, Junior Pelesasa. Last year he was languishing in the Queensland Cup, playing for the Toowoomba Clydesdales - this year, due to the extreme quality of the players surrounding him in the Queensland Reds side, he was able to represent his state in a Super 12 semi-final. Quite a leap, don't you think? Reserve grade to state level in the spaceof a year. It's amazing the way union can elevate a player's ability in such a short space of time, even if there is no discernible difference in their performance of the field.

Basically, what I'm trying to tell you guys is that our new-found buddy, Marcus, is in possession of an incredible mind. His argument's are concise, well-thought out, and are so obviously right that they are in no need of any supporting evidence. Let's not embarrass ourselves by trying to debate him, hey?

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

I almost forget - as Marcus alluded to in another post, he is a diehard league man. These views of his are straight from the heart and it kills him to share them with us.

 

[Hass]

I posted this in the "time for a hybrid game" thread. Well, tough luck- I'm posting it here as well.

That's it. I've had enough and I'm not gonna take it any more!

This year I have watched every Parramatta match either via Foxtel (or Ch9) or at the Ground

This year I have watched every Warratahs match either via Foxtel or at the Ground

I have watched the State of Origin Series. I have watched the Lions Tour Matches.

I watched the Aussies v Kiwis in League. I watched the Aussies v Lions in Union.

I've barely missed an episode of NRL on Fox and I didn't go to bed until 3am this Sunday morning because I was watching the Tri-Nations.
<hr>

What can I say, I'm crazy for al things football. If I had to choose between an NRL Grand Final or a Rugby World Cup Final I'd choose the League GF- but I'd love to go to both.

I've just read the other thread (the one Marcus started), discussing League and Union. I'm sick of all the squabbling. I want to see both these games grow big, and the cheap shots are annoying me. I know everything about the history and the backroom politics that has divided these codes, but it doesn't stop me, I just love my footy.

If only more people stuck to loving footy, both codes might be more succesful.

Cheers.

 

[imported_kier]

Going professional was the best thing that ever happen to Rugby, and I was so thrilled when it did.

The paradox is that a pro RU has had huge benefits to RL.......it's just that these are rarely reported in national media - possibly because they'd get in the way of a good story!

To use the example of the UK - since 1995 RU has had to drop all of its' by-laws against RL. The net result is a rapidly growing RL throughout the country.

Since 1995 RL has become a recognised sport in the UK armed forces........prior to this time it was BANNED. (not frowned upon, ignored or treated poorly but actually ILLEGAL under UK military rules!). The first ever armed forces RL test took place less than 6 months ago!

In a similar manner the civil service RL has flourished and this organisation has teams throughout the UK.

The Student RL had two teams in 1980........this had only increased to 18 in 1990/91. Since 1995 it has boomed - todayit is very rare for there to be a university without a RL side.......again there are teams all over the UK.

Since 1995 amateur club teams and competitions have spread to all of the home nations in the UK. The biggest competition being the Rugby League Conference (summer conference). This began with 14 clubs and has already expanded to 30 within 3 years.........all clubs in the comp have to meet minimum criteria based on facilities and youth teams. Below this structure there are numerous regional competitions.

The net benefit to RL has been huge - rapid strides inless than 6 years. There is still a lot of ground to make up, but a great start.

 

[Johnsy]

I will tell you the biggest problem RU has, look at the "pinnacle" of RU games the trinations. The first 2 games of this competition were nothing but a wrestle and goal kicking competition, interupted only by blatanly obvious inept refeering. If this is the appeal of the international game then make way it will not last long. I would be dissapointed if I paid 40 odd dollars to see that type of game. These 2 games show that ru is not an attacking game by nature more a defensive game. As a spectator, this is not a spectacle in any way, shape or form.

Johnsy

 

[Marcus]

Johnsy, under 'dry' conditions RU can be a thrilling sport to watch. But the fact that the 1st Tri-Nations game was played in wet weather constituted the match to be plagued by poor standards. I saw some of the NRL games this week, and because of the wet conditions all of the games was played at a poor standard.As a general rule - games played in wet weather will result in poor display 80% of the.(80/20 rule).