Unpopular Opinions

[Det.Wojciehowicz]

I'm definitely in the minority here but I would have preferred if he had stayed as Mean Mark and never became The Undertaker.

 

[Marshall_magic]

I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion here, but it seems on the wider internet it is.
Undertaker and Triple H's match at WM17 was WAY better then their other two WM matches.

The hell in a cell match for me is a classic (although it would depend on your tolerance of Shawn’s theatrics). Their match at 27 is incredibly overrated. It’s half an hour long and could have easily been 10-15 minutes shorter and lost nothing, the last 10 minutes or so minutes are fantastic. The match at 17 is very good, but gets lost in the shuffle as there was probably 3-4 better matches on the night (TLC, main event, Angle/Benoit, Vince/Shane).

The phrase “could have easily been 10-15 minutes shorter and lost nothing” aptly describes most of HHH’s mania work (most of which are horrible and self indulgent).

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

I think, like Lesnar, Kane was mishandled. Like, he was legitimately terrifying when he first came out. Wrestled under that red light. Randomly came out and destroyed people. How did he go from that to being a goof?

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion at all.
Good point though

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

- Not necessarily an unpopular opinion but Goldberg losing his streak, followed by the finger poke of doom as well as Vince Russo is what killed WCW. Russo should never have been an on-screen character.

Was thinking about this more.
Can add in the lack of respect of the titles from the Fingerpoke of doom onwards.


The WHC belt from that
Hogan holding it for 2 months
Flair for 1 month
DDP for 2 weeks, only for Sing to take it and drop it back to DDP on the same night
2 weeks later, Nash has it
2 Months later, Savage wins it, and holds it for a single day.
Back to Hogan, who'll hold it for 2 months until losing it to Sting.
Sting holds it for about 7 weeks before it's vacated. Hart wins a tournament, holds it for a month before it gets vacated again. Hart then re-claims it, only for it to be vacated once again (due to a legit injury)
Benoit then wins it at Souled out, but it's vacated as he goes to the WWE
Sid is then crowned champion a week later, only for..you guessed it, it gets vacated. Nash awards himself the title, only for Sid to win it the same night.
He holds it for about 3 months until...guess what... VACATED AGAIN.
Jarrett wins a tournament the following week, but then drops it to DDP a week later. 2 days later, on thunder, DDP then loses it to....David Arquette... He's champ for 2 weeks before Jarrett wins it, who drops it to Flair the following week...who gets the title VACATED the next week.
Jarrett is then champ, for 2 days before Nash wins is - holding it for 5 days before giving the title to Flair, who loses it that same night to Jarrett. (Keeping up still?)
Booker T wins it a month or so later at Bash at the Beach after the infamous Jarrett lying down for Hogan.
Booker holds it for 6 weeks, until Nash wins it, who then drops it back to Booker after 3 weeks. A week later and Russo is champion..and for the last time, it's VACATED. Booker then wins it, to drop it to Steiner 6 weeks later who holds it until the last Nitro and dropping it back to Booker

 

[Big Pete]

Even by the standards of the time, WCW was far too loose with it's World Championship.

If you change the channel to the WWF, they weren't much better with the WWF Championship. The key difference was the babyface/heel dynamic in the company.

When you tuned into RAW you knew you were watching Austin raising hell and McMahon dealing with the aftermath. That was followed up by the McMahon-Helmsley regime with The Rock stepping up to face off against his long-time rival.

WCW had that in 1997 with Sting and the nWo. As much as the nWo ran riot, fans tuned in waiting for the day Sting would get Hogan 1-1. They had something similar with Goldberg, but never really pulled the trigger. Hogan was too busy mucking around with NBA players, late night hosts and Warrior to engage with Bill.

Still, WCW had it's most successful year in '98. Things only started to sour when they completely undid all their hard work.

In 1998, they spent so much time turning Kevin Nash babyface only to have him bend the knee to Hogan. Whatever appeal he had as an outlaw was just completely diminished.

The fans were irate that Flair was suspended from the company and couldn't wait to cheer him. Hogan-Flair was a massive success in early '99 and actually out-sold the Austin-McMahon PPV. Instead of capitilising on it and allowing the fans to get behind Ric, they turned him heel, turned him into a joke and plastered him all over their TV.

Diamond Dallas Page was one guy that had consistently improved year on year and while he may not have been a huge star he had a very similar appeal as Mick Foley. He was just a likeable personality and he was the epitome of hard work and dedication. DDP winning the World Title could have been their equivalent of Mankind beating The Rock, instead they turned him heel, threw him into a Fatal Four-Way and had him win via a screwjob.

You could keep going through the list. Bret Hart, Buff Bagwell, Macho Man, Lex Luger and eventually Sting, Goldberg, Billy Kidman etc.

The characters have to remain consistent. The more you turn them, the harder it is to build a connection with the audience.

 

[Marshall_magic]

I feel like the Foley winning the title moment was also a huge part of the demise of WCW, seems like a small thing but history shows a load of people changed the channel when that was announced, and never looked back.

It was a product of a bigger picture, that the powers that be in WCW were out of touch.

The Bash at the Beach debacle also can’t be understated. The Dark Side of the Ring episode on this is very good, basically Russo and Bishoff telling you how it all should have happened….both sides were absolutely dogshit.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

I feel like the Foley winning the title moment was also a huge part of the demise of WCW, seems like a small thing but history shows a load of people changed the channel when that was announced, and never looked back.

It was a product of a bigger picture, that the powers that be in WCW were out of touch.

The Bash at the Beach debacle also can’t be understated. The Dark Side of the Ring episode on this is very good, basically Russo and Bishoff telling you how it all should have happened….both sides were absolutely dogshit.

The Foley winning the title was hurrendous for WCW, but made so much worse by the fact they announced it (as mentioned). Completely and utterly backfired.

I think a big thing that was that WWF were forced into a period of transition throughout the MNW. Whether it be through losing Diesel, Luger, Hart to WCW, HBK getting injured. They put faith in the likes of Stone Cold, the Rock, Kane, Angle, Triple H at the top of the card. They evolved Taker. Where as WCW did have certain stars rise like Goldberg, DDP... there was an over reliance (or in some cases politics) on veteren stars like Nash, Flair, Hogan, Savage, Piper, Warrior.

It felt the ceiling for non-established stars was no where near as high as they were in WWF. New exciting faces were carrying the WWF, it felt fresh. Austin and Rock are both commonly on peoples 'Mount Rushmores' while both having fairly brief in-ring careers at the top. - It could be attributed that their characters were consistant or relatable. They made sense (as Pete was alluding to)

WCW with it's roster should have been a much better product than it turned out to be. 96-98 were prime for me, but by then I feel it was time for new stars to start carrying the company - and I don't mean Jarrett. One example of someone who was over with the crowd, but went no where was Wrath. Hear the pop at World War 3 98, from memory he made it to like the last 7 or 8...and he was just fed to Nash on his way to Goldberg while on an undefeated streak. He never recovered, and then found mild success as part of Kronik. Jericho was over, see his 1004 holds promo or his work with Ralphus but it wasn't until he moved to WWF that he was properly pushed. The Giant should have been used far more effectively but was nothing more than a pawn in the nWos game.

At the time, I was a full on WCW fan boy (and tbf, there's still ALOT that I admire from it) but it's as i've got older, I can truly see how flawed they were

 

[mozza91]

I was in Calgary recently and stopped into Hart’s bar. Talk about a monument to Bret’s narcissism

I’m currently reading his book and concur. It’s a decent read and there’s some good stories there but f**k me Bret fell in love with himself at an early age and has remained faithful ever since.

 

[Marshall_magic]

I’m currently reading his book and concur. It’s a decent read and there’s some good stories there but f**k me Bret fell in love with himself at an early age and has remained faithful ever since.

The Bret and Goldberg feud is also a battle between who is the biggest mark for themself in wrestling history.

Then again, Triple H would run them both close.

 

[Big Pete]

I had some issues with the Death of WCW, but one point I agreed with was that WCW made some mistakes in '98 that eventually led to their downfall.

In business you always have to push the new product. In Pro Wrestling, that's the talent so the focus ought to be on Bret, Goldberg, Raven, Hennig etc.

Instead the show revolved around Hogan, Nash, Bischoff and DDP.

To make matters worse, personal issues got in the way of business. Hogan refused to work with Nash, so the show remained in limbo while Hogan worked all these outrageous matches. The match with the NBA stars was one thing, but by the time they got to the Warrior feud fans had seen enough and what should have been a successful period for WCW completely backfired.

See back then the WWF and WCW would trade turns when it came to ratings. In May, WCW would often get interrupted by the NBA play-offs so the WWF could counter-program. That spring they came up with the DX Invasion which was a massive hit and swung momentum the WWF's way.

Then in the fall (yeah yeah I know, but it's a US company so work with me here) WWF had the US Open and Dog Show to compete with giving WCW a chance to counter-program. The Warrior feud was an utter disaster, so much so, Warrior was quietly kept off TV for the remainder of his contract and Hogan disappeared to chase a career in politics.

So by the time they get to '99 the company was in disarray. There were so many injuries and there was nobody who was able to fill the void. Guys like Jericho, Bagwell, Booker T, Raven etc. who could have filled that void weren't in a position to get over.

I could keep going all day. I will say it wasn't through a lack of effort and if you go back and watch those '99 shows they're doing everything to entice viewers. However they're so desperate for ratings that they miss the bigger picture and WCW becomes this parody of the WWF.

When what brought WCW to the dance was the grittier presentation. It did a better job of suspending the audience's disbelief and making them passionate about the show. When they started to do more backstage skits and MTV style filler segments it hurt the quality of the show.

I'll stop it there, but there was no bigger task than trying to stay up till midnight to get through an entire episode of Nitro. By the time Regal and co. came out, I was tapping out.

 

[Valheru]

The death of WCW came down to the fact that time warner/AOL didnt want wrestling on their stations any more and it really is as simple as that.

All the things ypu guys are mentioning are valid and certainly led to the WWF comprehensively winning the MNW but WCWs death was really a business decision. Bischoff was willing to buy it but warner/AOL wouldn't honour the TV contract so it became worthless. There is a good chance WCW would still exist if someone bought it who could also afford a TV contract.

McMahon came over the top because he saw the value of the tape library which is really the only reason he bought it. From that point he essentially owned the history of North American Wrestling. It was a wonderful bit of foresight because it didnt pay off for another 10-15 years when the network came along.

 

[Valheru]

The Bret and Goldberg feud is also a battle between who is the biggest mark for themself in wrestling history.

Then again, Triple H would run them both close.

No one comes close to Bret.

Plenty of guys protected their character and all the rest of it but Bret is next level. He believes it's all real because for him it is.

 

[Marshall_magic]

The death of WCW came down to the fact that time warner/AOL didnt want wrestling on their stations any more and it really is as simple as that.

All the things ypu guys are mentioning are valid and certainly led to the WWF comprehensively winning the MNW but WCWs death was really a business decision. Bischoff was willing to buy it but warner/AOL wouldn't honour the TV contract so it became worthless. There is a good chance WCW would still exist if someone bought it who could also afford a TV contract.

McMahon came over the top because he saw the value of the tape library which is really the only reason he bought it. From that point he essentially owned the history of North American Wrestling. It was a wonderful bit of foresight because it didnt pay off for another 10-15 years when the network came along.

Whilst that’s true, if WCW had been a ratings hit and drawing money it would have stayed on the air.

 

[Marshall_magic]

No one comes close to Bret.

Plenty of guys protected their character and all the rest of it but Bret is next level. He believes it's all real because for him it is.

I would say Hogan was in the same class, although his insanity was more due to rampant dishonesty than a huge opinion of self.

 

[Valheru]

I would say Hogan was in the same class, although his insanity was more due to rampant dishonesty than a huge opinion of self.

At least he drew though, he is still the biggest draw in North American wrestling history and it's not particularly close.

He definitely held on well past his use by date in 99/00 for sure.

 

[Marshall_magic]

At least he drew though, he is still the biggest draw in North American wrestling history and it's not particularly close.

He definitely held on well past his use by date in 99/00 for sure.

Would agree with that, only person in the ballpark is Austin.

I understand Bret’s saltiness to an extent. Considering a lot of his peers had prolonged runs after his injury (Michaels, Hunter, Taker and Kane) and how much guys get paid for nostalgia spots, the bloke probably ended up with generational wealth left on the table.

 

[Valheru]

Would agree with that, only person in the ballpark is Austin.

I understand Bret’s saltiness to an extent. Considering a lot of his peers had prolonged runs after his injury (Michaels, Hunter, Taker and Kane) and how much guys get paid for nostalgia spots, the bloke probably ended up with generational wealth left on the table.

Taking inflation in to account, Austin really isnt close. Rock drew more in 2000 than Austin did prior having said that it's very arguable that Austin was the cause of that.

That's not to diminish Austin at all who IMO is in the conversation for all round GOAT. If you havent already, listen to some of the original something to wrestle with podcasts and Pritchard mentions how big a draw hogan was. To that point in his career before he went back to WWE, Mania 5 was his biggest pay day in aggregate which is quite stunning given he worked for Vincent up until 2008 in that stint.

Yeah Bret just didnt seem to ever get over the screw job. Don't get me wrong, he had a right to be pissed but at the end of the day he had a huge contract with WCW, he acted as if someone was killed. He can be filthy with Vincent and Shawn but one would think you get over it after a few months. Deadset took him 7 years to agree to the HoF and a DVD and then a further 6 to make an angle out of it.

 

[Marshall_magic]

Austin is huge because he was the catalyst behind turning the tide in the war. Austin 3:16 tshirts are still probably the all time grossing merch (only NWO would come close).

I always say, Hogan is the reason wrestling is a thing today. Austin is the reason it’s WWE and not WCW.

 

[Big Pete]

I agree that the merger was the beginning of the end. The one major advantage WCW had was Turner's backing and once he started to lose control that effectively sunk WCW.

However I don't think it was an inevitability. Had WCW been successful in 1999, Bischoff likely would have kept the reigns. Bischoff had good rapport with the other executives, but the failures of '99 took their toll on Eric and from there it became easy for Warner to strip WCW of their funding.

Without Ted and Bischoff, what was WCW? It'd be like trying to run AEW without Shahid's money.

 

[Pippen94]

I agree that the merger was the beginning of the end. The one major advantage WCW had was Turner's backing and once he started to lose control that effectively sunk WCW.

However I don't think it was an inevitability. Had WCW been successful in 1999, Bischoff likely would have kept the reigns. Bischoff had good rapport with the other executives, but the failures of '99 took their toll on Eric and from there it became easy for Warner to strip WCW of their funding.

Without Ted and Bischoff, what was WCW? It'd be like trying to run AEW without Shahid's money.

Lol, Bischoff had no money. You've been listening to too much 83 weeks.