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What's the matter with Parramatta? SMH

apeman

Juniors
Messages
211
What's the matter with Parramatta?

July 18, 2008

They've spent all week up a dirty, smelly creek after their only paddle snapped. They've crawled on elbows and knees through a city's sewerage, like Andy Dufresne in The Shawshank Redemption.
But instead of escaping to freedom, Parramatta run out tonight in front of a packed, partisan Brookvale Oval to face the competition leaders.
As confidence in his side has drained, Eels coach Michael Hagan has argued for weeks that his team - which took the NRL by the scruff of the neck at the end of last season, pushing Melbourne hard in the preliminary final - is there or thereabouts.
But facts don't lie. This time last season Parra were third. They start tonight 10th and, if there's a bullet, it's pointed at them.
The redoubtable Nathan Hindmarsh - cited by Hagan as proof his team does not lack desire - tackled the problem head-on after last Saturday's 32-20 loss to Souths. Asked where the side was, Hindmarsh was clear. "Up sh*t creek, mate," he said. "We've got one paddle left."
That paddle was star five-eighth Feleti Mateo, missing with a knee injury from tonight's encounter, which the Eels enter as $5.10 outsiders.
The Herald convened a round table to answer the hard questions - Eels halfback Brett Finch, Eels greats Peter Sterling and Ray Price, former coach and Fairfax columnist Phil Gould and lifelong Parramatta fan Adam Daniel. Hagan declined the opportunity to take a seat.
1Can Parramatta still make the top four? Are they alive in this competition? I don't think they can make the top four. To be honest, I have questions about whether they can make the top eight. I haven't seen any consistent play all season, and it's not something you turn on like a tap.
Peter Sterling:
Brett Finch: We're definitely still alive to make the semi-finals but the top-four sides seem to be kicking away from most teams.
Ray Price: I don't know about the top four but they can get into the eight.
Phil Gould: You can't write them off because of the talent they have but, as a team, they've given me no indication they're going to rally. If anything, they should be a lot further down the ladder than they are; they've had a couple of lucky escapes.
Adam Daniel: Top four is a stretch, but although we are riddled with bullets we are still breathing.
2What has happened to the side that finished third in 2007?You'd have to ask each individual player what's happened but, from the outside looking in, it looks as if they've been playing as individuals. They've got to pull their finger out and start playing as a team. And playing a little bit better.

RP:
PS: I've always believed there was a sameness about their forward pack, and the game these days is dominated so much by what happens in the middle corridor. I don't think Parramatta have the forward pack to play a power game, but they also don't have the athleticism to play a style more like the Tigers.
BF: We've had a few tough decisions go against us and a few tight games we've lost on the bell. But we certainly set high standards for ourselves and we've fallen short of them.
AD: We've been asking this question since scraping through game one. I think last year led to overconfidence in the squad.
PG: You could see it from the opening game - they look soft in the head and soft in the body. It takes 18 months to destroy a good culture and 18 months to repair a bad one. Look at Newcastle and Parramatta, where they were and where they are now, and I think the answer is fairly obvious. The Eels have lost their hard, competitive culture.
3Is the team suffering from bad attitude, poor personnel or poor technique and tactics?Attitude rules the world. They've lost their intensity, they've lost their competitiveness, they've lost their ability to concentrate for a full 80 minutes.
PG:
AD: Their intermittent bursts of flair and invention show the personnel are still capable but the on-field attitude has lacked focus and the game plans have been too stagnant.
RP: It could be a bit of all. The coach reckons he's happy with how they're going.
PS: I can't dispute the effort, but I do think the personnel they have haven't been able to suit to what is winning football these days. It's not from lack of effort.
BF: I don't think it's any of them. Sometimes that's just the way it goes. The competition's that close you just can't afford to lose the close games, and we've lost the ones we would have won last year.
4Is there a quick fix that might save the Eels' season? Is there light at the end of the tunnel, or is that a train with Manly's name on it?I am terrified of Manly, especially without Mateo. A win there will make a huge difference to how the Eels play the remainder of the season.
AD:
BF: We're going over the bridge certainly believing we can win it. They're an extremely good team but there's no use putting the boots in the bag and paying the toll if we don't believe we can win it.
RP: There can be a light at the end of the tunnel but it's got to be turned on by the individuals in the team.

PS: There's never a quick fix but if you can't go to Brookvale on a Friday night ready to play the game of your life then you shouldn't be playing first-grade football. They've got to do what the Gold Coast did last week against the Roosters; they've got to defy expectations.
PG: Parramatta have the talent to beat anyone but there's got to be a massive shift in attitude to trouble a side like Manly, who've been steeling themselves for this stuff for five years.
5Can you remember a playing roster as talented as the Eels' (eight Test players and two Origin reps) performing this poorly?At the Roosters, I was in a pretty handy team that didn't make the semis in 2005-2006. We understand the talented roster we've got and we set high expectations, and we haven't lived up to them.
BF:
AD: Not in my memory. I'm sure there are other teams in the league who would swap squads for players of the Eels' calibre, but it means nothing unless they show it on the turf.
RP: No. They've had a few things go against them in each game but you can't keep harping on that.
PS: No, probably not. There was probably criticism levelled at the Dragons a few years ago but at least they got there at the end [of the competition]. For whatever reason, the talent that is there hasn't translated on to the football field this year.
PG: There's been plenty of examples. Talent is not the be all and end all. Talent's not enough, attitude is the key.
THE TROUBLE WITH THE EELS …


PETER STERLING
'I don't think they can make the top four … I have questions about whether they can make the top eight.'
BRETT FINCH
'We understand the talented roster we've got and we set high expectations and we haven't lived up to them.'
RAY PRICE
'It looks as if they've been playing as individuals. They've got to pull their finger out and start playing as a team.'
PHIL GOULD
'If anything, they should be a lot further down the ladder than they are - they've had a couple of lucky escapes.'
ADAM DANIEL
'The personnel are still capable but the on-field attitude has lacked focus and the game plans have been too stagnant.'
http://leaguehq.com.au

http://leaguehq.com.au
 

Tank30

Juniors
Messages
776
RP: It could be a bit of all. The coach reckons he's happy with how they're going.
PS: I've always believed there was a sameness about their forward pack, and the game these days is dominated so much by what happens in the middle corridor. I don't think Parramatta have the forward pack to play a power game, but they also don't have the athleticism to play a style more like the Tigers.
Phil Gould: You can't write them off because of the talent they have but, as a team, they've given me no indication they're going to rally. If anything, they should be a lot further down the ladder than they are; they've had a couple of lucky escapes.
PETER STERLING: I don't think they can make the top four … I have questions about whether they can make the top eight. I haven't seen any consistent play all season, and it's not something you turn on like a tap.

These quotes sum us up if you ask me...Some pretty good judges making those calls too.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,814
The only thing that I would add to that is that the talent does not lie in the forwards.
 

Snoochies

First Grade
Messages
5,633
I may be a little bit optimistic but I think we will finally see a different Parramatta tonight. I don't think we'll win but I think the effort will improve 100%. I hope they come out like they did against the Broncos. Alot of teams this year who have brought in young talent have really lifted so hopefully KK can bring some excitement to tonight game. You only need to look at the Panthers and Souths to see what a fresh face can do. I would think that the players are sick and tired of hearing how bad they have been all year and would come out for all guns blazing tonight......but this has been said week after week.
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
76,595
We may have had a few lucky escapes Gus, but we also got pipped on the bell twice by the Broncs & Sharks.

Anyway, who the f**k is Adam Daniel ?
 

FROSTY319

Juniors
Messages
324
The only thing that I would add to that is that the talent does not lie in the forwards.

So true. I'm so sick of hearing about how much talent the team has and most of it sits with the backline.
I don't care how good your backs are and Hagan can make as many changes and swap positions in the backs as he likes, but it won't change the fact that we have no go forward other than Fui.
Manly will still beat us by 30 tonight.
 

fish eel

Immortal
Messages
42,876
It takes 18 months to destroy a good culture and 18 months to repair a bad one. Look at Newcastle and Parramatta, where they were and where they are now, and I think the answer is fairly obvious. The Eels have lost their hard, competitive culture.

If we ever had that culture under Smith, it started to be killed off in 06 before smith pulled the pin
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
13,683
If we ever had that culture under Smith, it started to be killed off in 06 before smith pulled the pin

Surely Phil is not suggesting that 18 months ago Newcastle had a crap culture that is only now on the mend and that 18 months ago Parra had a good culture that has now been turned off. That would suggest that:
1) Hages develops crap cultures
2) B Smith develops good cultures

I cant for the life of me imagine Phil insinuating that :roll: :roll:
 

walker smith

Juniors
Messages
462
At the Roosters, I was in a pretty handy team that didn't make the semis in 2005-2006. We understand the talented roster we've got and we set high expectations, and we haven't lived up to them.


i like brett finch. i dont think hes a star, but i do think he has value.

However, this comment highlights that he has been involved in some terrifically underforming teams.

I wonder if it is his off-field influence or something about his on-field form......or is it plain coincidence?
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
At the Roosters, I was in a pretty handy team that didn't make the semis in 2005-2006. We understand the talented roster we've got and we set high expectations, and we haven't lived up to them.


i like brett finch. i dont think hes a star, but i do think he has value.

However, this comment highlights that he has been involved in some terrifically underforming teams.

I wonder if it is his off-field influence or something about his on-field form......or is it plain coincidence?

The Roosters sides in '05 and '06 were nothing to get excited about. Over the hill players living on past glories. I don't think it's fair to criticize Finch too much, he's obviously putting in and showing leadership on the field. I don't think it's fair of myself, you, or anyone else to comment on his off field influence.
 

walker smith

Juniors
Messages
462
The Roosters sides in '05 and '06 were nothing to get excited about. Over the hill players living on past glories. I don't think it's fair to criticize Finch too much, he's obviously putting in and showing leadership on the field. I don't think it's fair of myself, you, or anyone else to comment on his off field influence.

As i said, im not out to crucify finch - essentially i like him. But i am raising the connection from his own quote for discussion and putting possible relevant parameters for the discussion.

And yes it is fair to comment if it impacts on the team or club...thats what this forum is designed for....dont be such a PC Nazi.
 

walker smith

Juniors
Messages
462
The Roosters sides in '05 and '06 were nothing to get excited about. Over the hill players living on past glories. I don't think it's fair to criticize Finch too much, he's obviously putting in and showing leadership on the field. I don't think it's fair of myself, you, or anyone else to comment on his off field influence.

And i agree with this actually - which makes me think that it may be just coincidence and bad luck on finch's behalf to be associated with "underperforming teams"
 

Bigfella

Coach
Messages
10,102
It jumps off the page but as usual any analysis of his involvement in the teams performance completely absolves him. Finch Sterilng and Matthew Johns refuse to criticise him for any reason.

Bizarre.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
And i agree with this actually - which makes me think that it may be just coincidence and bad luck on finch's behalf to be associated with "underperforming teams"

I think he's in the same situation every other experienced halfback in the NRL is under, he's expected to be a great halfback week in and week out. Orford's copped it in the past for losing big games, Kimmorley's been told on numerous occasions he's never to play rep footy again. Gower and Sherwin were also getting a fair bit of criticism before the left for overseas. Unfortunatley for Brett, if you're an experienced halfback, and your side is struggling, you're still expected to do better.

A forward can play well in a struggling team, as can a hooker, as can any of the backline. It's extremely difficult for a halve or 5'8th to do this if the other guys aren't playing well.
 

eel4life

Juniors
Messages
1,432
Honestly, Brian smith always gets a club moving on the right track, problem he has is for whatever reason the bloke can not win a premiership.

in 2001 we should of won the comp, even in 2005 we should of won the comp.

building up a club getting structures in place, arguably he is the best coach to do so .. winning a comp ... diff story ...

Hagan, won a comp does this mean he was lucky cause he had johns and the rest and we were unlucky because we played them ... who knows .. but what i have noticed is that hagan is a nice guy, maybe thats the problem he is to nice and the players maybe need a coach that has the agro and is able to make a tough decision earlier on who to cut.

Taylor had the same problem, he cut players and then all of a sudden they got on a roll ...

in terms of a club needing to make the tough calls smithy done that well with the knights, but look at the player we have lost over the years, a whole heap, now we need a coach that can lift our players to the next level and hagan will not do that, we are no better than last year.

we need a coach that can lift us to the next level, time to cut losses and get someone who can do it, i can only think of 1 coach who can, and that looks like anderson
...
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
Honestly, Brian smith always gets a club moving on the right track, problem he has is for whatever reason the bloke can not win a premiership.

in 2001 we should of won the comp, even in 2005 we should of won the comp.

building up a club getting structures in place, arguably he is the best coach to do so .. winning a comp ... diff story ...

Hagan, won a comp does this mean he was lucky cause he had johns and the rest and we were unlucky because we played them ... who knows .. but what i have noticed is that hagan is a nice guy, maybe thats the problem he is to nice and the players maybe need a coach that has the agro and is able to make a tough decision earlier on who to cut.

Taylor had the same problem, he cut players and then all of a sudden they got on a roll ...

in terms of a club needing to make the tough calls smithy done that well with the knights, but look at the player we have lost over the years, a whole heap, now we need a coach that can lift our players to the next level and hagan will not do that, we are no better than last year.

we need a coach that can lift us to the next level, time to cut losses and get someone who can do it, i can only think of 1 coach who can, and that looks like anderson
...

I agree with most of what you say. I think the main reason Hagan was hired was because he was laid back and a nice guy, someone less structural and more honest with the players. The complete opposite of Brian Smith in other words. I think thsi was a poor decision because the best coaches are the ones in between. They are the leaders but get on with the players at the same time.

I think one of the main problems with Hagan is his refusal to drop players due to poor form. All this does is lead the guys into a comfort zone. They know they're not going to be dropped if they win or lose and thus footy just becomes a job. Hagan should be laying down the law and making it known that poor performances, from the side, and individuals are not to be tolerated.
 

diab0lik

Juniors
Messages
518
hmm when will the papers get the simple facts right?

2What has happened to the side that finished third in 2007?
if i remember correctly we finished 5th not third and had to play warriors away the first week
5Can you remember a playing roster as talented as the Eels' (eight Test players and two Origin reps) performing this poorly?
cansome one tell me who our 8 test players and 2 origin are?
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
13,683
hmm when will the papers get the simple facts right?

2What has happened to the side that finished third in 2007?
if i remember correctly we finished 5th not third and had to play warriors away the first week
5Can you remember a playing roster as talented as the Eels' (eight Test players and two Origin reps) performing this poorly?
cansome one tell me who our 8 test players and 2 origin are?

This is off the top of my head and so might be wrong.
Test Players:
1) Hindmarsh
2) Inu (NZ)
3) Cayless (NZ)
4) Galavou (NZ)
5) Grothe
6) Hayne
7) Moi Moi (NZ)
8) Mateo (Tonga)

SoO:
1) Finch
2) Wagon
 

walker smith

Juniors
Messages
462
This is off the top of my head and so might be wrong.
Test Players:
1) Hindmarsh
2) Inu (NZ)
3) Cayless (NZ)
4) Galavou (NZ)
5) Grothe
6) Hayne
7) Moi Moi (NZ)
8) Mateo (Tonga)

SoO:
1) Finch
2) Wagon

Hindmarsh, groth and hayne are also origin players.....also, has Moi Moi played for NZ?
 
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