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World XIII

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Rugby League World magazine have published their world XIII following the completion of the international season .


1. Darren Lockyer
2. Francis Meli
3. Clinton Toopi
4. Keith Senior
5. Brian Carney
6. Brad Fittler
7. Andrew Johns
8. Shane Webcke
9. Danny Buderus
10.Stuart Fielden
11.Adrian Morley
12.Craig Fitzgibbon
13.Luke Ricketson
 

Fairleigh Good!

Juniors
Messages
1,185
I'd roll with that apart from the glaring and frankly laughable decision to have Luke Ricketson at loose forward instead of Paul Sculthorpe.

Scully is the one truely world class player in Super League, and he would destroy the NRL on a regular basis too if he moved.

Ricketson is a hard working grafter and little more.

And there is a prize for the first person who says it's because he did not play at loose forward during the Ashes, because Fittler has retired from representative games yet still warants selection because of his club form.

Danny Buderus looks out of place in that side too. Did nothing in the Ashes of any note.
 

gaterooze

Bench
Messages
3,037
Agreed on Sculthorpe -- and if they chose a bench, there'd definitely be a few more NZers in the team.
 

In-goal

Bench
Messages
3,523
All in all it's looking positve for our game with more Brits and kiwis in the side now, hopefuly we will see another kiwi or 2 next year so we can have a more international balanced side.

Roll on Tri nations 2004.
 

nqboy

First Grade
Messages
8,914
Fairleigh Good! said:
I'd roll with that apart from the glaring and frankly laughable decision to have Luke Ricketson at loose forward instead of Paul Sculthorpe.

Scully is the one truely world class player in Super League, and he would destroy the NRL on a regular basis too if he moved.

Ricketson is a hard working grafter and little more.

And there is a prize for the first person who says it's because he did not play at loose forward during the Ashes, because Fittler has retired from representative games yet still warants selection because of his club form.

Agreed.

Fairleigh Good! said:
Danny Buderus looks out of place in that side too. Did nothing in the Ashes of any note.

Yeah, but who would you pick instead?
 

clives_bootlace

Juniors
Messages
81
YOU JOKE!!!!! :lol:
I WOULDNT HAVE ONE SAD POMMY LEAGUE PLAYER ANYWHERE NEAR A WORLD TEAM, THEY ARE ALL VERY ORDINARY, RICKO CRAPS ON SCULLTHORPE!!!
 

Mad Dogg

Juniors
Messages
2,359
nqboy said:
Fairleigh Good! said:
Danny Buderus looks out of place in that side too. Did nothing in the Ashes of any note.
Yeah, but who would you pick instead?
I'd go Priddis or Wing. But because Buderus was picked ahead of them for the Australian team, they were never going to make it.
 

Fairleigh Good!

Juniors
Messages
1,185
nqboy said:
Fairleigh Good! said:
Danny Buderus looks out of place in that side too. Did nothing in the Ashes of any note.

Yeah, but who would you pick instead?

I couldn't think of anyone to be honest, it just looks like hooker is a position in which there isn't a wealth of talent at the moment. Keiron Cunningham would be an automatic choice if it weren't for his horrific injury last season which has potentially rbbed us of seeing him in his prime.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Danny Buderus is not only the best hooker by a long way, but is also close to the best player in the world at the moment.

Everyone is saying how well Kimmorley played, and by some strange coincidence he always has a great game when he plays beside Buderus. By another strange co incidence a guy named Johns has built up a pretty good reputation ever since he has had Buderus feeding him the ball.

Blokes like Wing and Cunningham certainly look flashy when they run the ball, but the job of the hooker is to give the ball to the guys who can use it best - and guys like Johns and Kimmorley can certainly look good when they get the ball on their chest every time they want it.

Buderus gives the forwards a clean ball on their chests when they are doing hitups and he gives the ball to the playmakers when and where they want it. He also goes for a run himself when it is the thing to do.

Added to that, he plays hard for 80 minutes and tackles anything that moves.

If you think two or three runs a game from Wing or Cunningham is a fair tradeoff for a hooker who does the dummy half work so well that he makes your whole side run like a well oiled machine, good, but I don't think you would be able to get Johns or Kimmorley to swap.
 

PB

Bench
Messages
3,311
Keith Senior...

He was the best centre (arguably) in the test series, but he didnt actually play against any centres of any credability did he....

And anyone who thinks Buderus isnt up to standard doesnt watch much NRL football...
 

The Observer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,742
PB said:
Keith Senior...

He was the best centre (arguably) in the test series, but he didnt actually play against any centres of any credability did he....

And anyone who thinks Buderus isnt up to standard doesnt watch much NRL football...

Whatever. Buderus may be a decent player, but he is possibly the most overrated player in the competition. There are half a dozen hookers at least as good as he (Craig Wing and Luke Priddis being two).
 

Fairleigh Good!

Juniors
Messages
1,185
The role of the hooker in the modern game has surely got to be more than simply passing it safely to the next runner?

Buderus did this effectively enough, but so could half the players in the pub leagues on a Sunday! He isn't a threat with the ball in his hand (On the evidence of the Ashes at least) and didn't do a thing from dummy half himself.

Cunningham at his best is in another league. He has sadly gone to pot since his injury but a few years ago he was liable to make 50 yard breaks a few times per game and was absolutely deadly near the line either himself, or with passes to people like Sculthorpe to run onto. He also tackled better than any prop forward. He was miles ahead of any hooker.

Damn shame what happened to him. I would have loved to have seen a fit Cunningham play in this Ashes Series.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Fairleigh Good! said:
The role of the hooker in the modern game has surely got to be more than simply passing it safely to the next runner?

Buderus did this effectively enough, but so could half the players in the pub leagues on a Sunday! He isn't a threat with the ball in his hand (On the evidence of the Ashes at least) and didn't do a thing from dummy half himself.

Cunningham at his best is in another league. He has sadly gone to pot since his injury but a few years ago he was liable to make 50 yard breaks a few times per game and was absolutely deadly near the line either himself, or with passes to people like Sculthorpe to run onto. He also tackled better than any prop forward. He was miles ahead of any hooker.

Damn shame what happened to him. I would have loved to have seen a fit Cunningham play in this Ashes Series.

Buderus doesn't just pass the ball to next runner as you put it - he has the ability to read the play to know who should get the ball and when. He has this ability because Andrew Johns has spent years training him up.
Buderus delivers the ball with perfect timing to the guy who is running into the gap or to the forward who has his momentum up but is still in good position to take the pass comfortably, or to the kicker who is in best position.

The problem with Buderus is that he does his job so well and with so little fuss that people don't even see him doing it - they just see forwards not dropping the ball and playmakers seeming to have all day to do their work without recognising that those guys can do that because of the quality of Buderus' work.

Buderus' first rep game was for NSW Country against city in which he played beside Kimmorley for the first time. Kimmorley revelled in the conditions so much that people were seriously talking about him being better than Johns, and the Kimmorley/Buderus combination this series has people saying the same thing.

When Mal Rielly came to Newcastle as a coach he brought an English hooker leigh Jackson with him. Jackson was a bit of a playmaker at hooker and Johns eventually refused to play with him because Johns needs a hooker who feeds him the ball when and where he needs it, so he trained up Buderus for the job.

In SOO Buderus has made guys like Timmins, Barratt, Johns, Minichello, Hodgson and others all look like bloody champions because they get the ball when they have a gap in front of them, perfectly, on their chests.

Buderus is also a well known runner from dummy half, but he only does it when it is the best option, which means he mostly does it when the rest of the side is not doing their job and are not giving him a better option.

Wing is a one trick pony, priddis is good but not in the same class, and cunningham is not even playing from the same playbook, because he is an oldfashioned 'small prop' type hooker rather than the new style 'big halfback' type favoured in Australia at the moment.

A lot of fans hate the fact that 'flashy' hookers who go for big runs in games are not preferred to Buderus, but any coach would take a hooker who will make every set play and every playmaker run like a well oiled machine every time.
 

The Observer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,742
roopy said:
Wing is a one trick pony,

Dealing with the rest of your post later, you have just provided clear evidence that Buderus is the one trick pony. Wing is anything but a one trick pony. Winning a premiership at halfback, clinching an Ashes series at centre and excelling both as a hooker and an impact player demonstrate that he has a bag of tricks.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Joker said:
roopy said:
Wing is a one trick pony,

Dealing with the rest of your post later, you have just provided clear evidence that Buderus is the one trick pony. Wing is anything but a one trick pony. Winning a premiership at halfback, clinching an Ashes series at centre and excelling both as a hooker and an impact player demonstrate that he has a bag of tricks.
As a hooker (which is what we are talking about) he is a one trick pony, that being he has a good run from dummy half. The problem is that most teams are wide awake to his one trick now, so coaches have moved on are are playing him at hooker less and less, and only towards the end of the game when forwards are tired too. Wing was used well in SOO to give a bit of impact at hooker for short periods and to give some impact out wide at other times, but for most of the time Buderus was used to keep all the 13 players on the field involved.

Wing is a good player for many reasons, but he is not a complete 80 minute hooker who you can build a game plan around every week.
 

roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
Joker said:
[] you have just provided clear evidence that Buderus is the one trick pony.
I suppose by that you mean that passing the ball is his 'one trick'. Fair enough, his 'one trick' is to have a hundred variations from dummy half to get the ball to the right man in the right position. He is used to having a single playmaker outside him (Johns) who is the most marked man in football, but who still manages to find room to be the best playmaker in the game. If 'one trick' Buderus just picked up the ball and threw it to Johns on every play you could book Johns a permanent bed at the John Hunter Hospital, because five forwards would be on him every time.

Buderus can read the play well enough to see when the defence is rushing up on Johns and cuts him out every time for the man in the gap where those defenders have come from. The Knights can exist with just one playmaker because Buderus knows when to give him the ball and, more importantly, when not to give him the ball, and even more importantly, what to do with the ball when he is not giving it to Johns. Every team in the comp has been trying to close down Johns for years, and the reason they can't is not because of anything Johns does, it is because Buderus punishes them when they rush up on Johns.

Buderus does run from dummy half, but it is usually to draw the defence to make a gap to put someone else through, which he does far better than any other hooker. He also does the long cut out pass better and more effectively than any other, but only when it is 'on'.

Many hookers just pass as they rise from dummy half, but Buderus will rarely do this. He generally takes a few steps forward before moving the ball along the line, but he still moves the ball with plenty of time and delivers perfect passes. It is an artform to get the timing of passes perfect, and he is the master of the artform IMO.
 

yakstorm

First Grade
Messages
5,709
roopy said:
He generally takes a few steps forward before moving the ball along the line.

I think that is one of his very large negatives in his play, he is moving forward and then puts the ball back 6 - 8 meters meaning the players running onto the ball are still behind the advantage line, but unlike hookers who pass it quickly from the play the ball, the defence has already caught up preventing the number of yards a player can make forward.

I'm not denying he is a good player, he is consistent, just like Ricketson, but he does lack alot of creative flair. When you have Johns or Kimmorley to pass to, they can do all the creative work, but when you don't have those players around you, you need the hooker to stand up.
 

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