Y.N.W.A Thread III: Enter 'The Normal One'

[Captain Apollo]

When Salah went off, the pace LFC played at dropped. To me that enabled Real to get into their flow and control the game. It was noticeable how much slower the game was and it played to Real strengths in midfield as pointed out by other posters.

 

[skeepe]

I hope that deadshit Ramos hasn’t ruined Salah’s World Cup.

 

[DC80]

I agree with most of that.

The thing is that despite that gulf in class, Madrid were still there for the taking, and we were outplaying them until Salah went off. Still could have even won if it were not for Karius and Bale. Tactically Zidane is way below Klopp and that did offset the superior quality Madrid had on paper.

Soon as Mo went off we were toast. Madrid pushed up as the threat from Salah in behind was gone, their central midfield being vastly superior took command, and really we needed a huge slice of luck to win from then on. Our goal came from nothing, a set piece. We had no build up play for the vast majority of the game as we are devoid of class/creativity in midfield. This typifies Henderson:


And this


A quality midfielder plays that ball forward (out to the right wing in the second example), or turns and moves forward (in the first example). Henderson is limited. Milner is similar. You can’t come up against Modric, a maestro, Kroos, another world class passer, Isco, a world class playmaker, and expect to compete.

With the front three we have been able to get away with a very ordinary midfield, as they do so much damage on the break. Against Roma in the 5-2 semi-final win we had almost nothing from midfield. First goal (Salah into top corner), it was Firmino who passed him the ball to the right side of the penalty area. Second goal (Salah chip), long ball upfield from Van Dijk, Salah flicked to Firmino who then ran before playing him in. Third goal (Mane into bottom left corner), pass from right full back area to Salah out wide, he runs and puts it on a plate for Mane. Fourth goal (Firmino tap in), pass from right full back area to Salah out wide, he goes past defender and rolls ball across the goal for Firmino. Fifth goal (Firmino header), header from a corner kick. Not one of the five goals was a through ball from central midfield. The one player capable of doing so (Chamberlain) got injured early in the game. Second leg in Rome, first goal, Firmino ran onto a loose pass and played in Mane, second goal, corner kick, ball came into Wijnaldum’s path and he headed in. Seven goals, not one with central midfield involvement. Roma also completely over-ran us in central midfield, as did Spurs home and away.

The very thing Henderson can’t do (turn, pick a pass) Keita can do, so he will be a massive upgrade. Fekir in the #10 role vacated by Coutinho, another massive upgrade. For me Wijnaldum is the only one of the three midfielders that played yesterday that are good enough for a team that aspires to compete against the best.

 

[saint.nick]

Soon as Mo went off we were toast. Madrid pushed up as the threat from Salah in behind was gone, their central midfield being vastly superior took command, and really we needed a huge slice of luck to win from then on. Our goal came from nothing, a set piece. We had no build up play for the vast majority of the game as we are devoid of class/creativity in midfield. This typifies Henderson:


And this


A quality midfielder plays that ball forward (out to the right wing in the second example), or turns and moves forward (in the first example). Henderson is limited. Milner is similar. You can’t come up against Modric, a maestro, Kroos, another world class passer, Isco, a world class playmaker, and expect to compete.

With the front three we have been able to get away with a very ordinary midfield, as they do so much damage on the break. Against Roma in the 5-2 semi-final win we had almost nothing from midfield. First goal (Salah into top corner), it was Firmino who passed him the ball to the right side of the penalty area. Second goal (Salah chip), long ball upfield from Van Dijk, Salah flicked to Firmino who then ran before playing him in. Third goal (Mane into bottom left corner), pass from right full back area to Salah out wide, he runs and puts it on a plate for Mane. Fourth goal (Firmino tap in), pass from right full back area to Salah out wide, he goes past defender and rolls ball across the goal for Firmino. Fifth goal (Firmino header), header from a corner kick. Not one of the five goals was a through ball from central midfield. The one player capable of doing so (Chamberlain) got injured early in the game. Second leg in Rome, first goal, Firmino ran onto a loose pass and played in Mane, second goal, corner kick, ball came into Wijnaldum’s path and he headed in. Seven goals, not one with central midfield involvement. Roma also completely over-ran us in central midfield, as did Spurs home and away.

The very thing Henderson can’t do (turn, pick a pass) Keita can do, so he will be a massive upgrade. Fekir in the #10 role vacated by Coutinho, another massive upgrade. For me Wijnaldum is the only one of the three midfielders that played yesterday that are good enough for a team that aspires to compete against the best.

Disagree re Wijnaldum, he is not good enough going forward for us. He is certainly adequate as a back up but he is too frequently anonymous on the pitch to be a starting midfielder if we aspire to win major honours. His away form is a really curious problem, he basically hides and does nothing. Occasionally he is good at home but like I said, we need more quality than that. Players who take initiative.

 

[DC80]

Disagree re Wijnaldum, he is not good enough going forward for us. He is certainly adequate as a back up but he is too frequently anonymous on the pitch to be a starting midfielder if we aspire to win major honours. His away form is a really curious problem, he basically hides and does nothing. Occasionally he is good at home but like I said, we need more quality than that. Players who take initiative.

Agree completely with needing “players who take initiative”, something we lack in midfield (I'm amazed we had the season we did after losing Coutinho in January, I genuinely thought our top four hopes had gone then).

The reason I say Gini is good enough is due to his ball retention (highest passing success rate of our midfielders), and his ability to spin around the opposing player and move forward (just what Henderson couldn’t do, as seen in the first video). He keeps the ball, and is able to get away from the opposing player without getting flustered, that’s two major assets. A lot of the work he does is unseen. He’s a link man who keeps things ticking along. He was brought up in the Dutch school where they learn how to keep that round thing under their control under pressure. Three Ginis in midfield would never work, as it needs more of the players you state. But one of them is fine. The two others we have are merely just industrious/hard grafters: Milner doesn’t keep the ball nearly as well, plus doesn’t have the ability to turn a player, Hendo doesn’t have movement and also plays very safe (side pass/back pass).

I had four concerns going into the final

Lovren - would be lose concentration at a crucial moment?
Trent - as a raw youngster would he have a Man City type performance or a Roma type?
Karius - as a suspect keeper would he cope?
Midfield - no creativity, massively inferior in terms of technique, would they be able to compensate for this by outworking the opposing midfield?

The first two passed with flying colours. Trent looked mature beyond his years, our right back for the next 10 years. Lovren was immense, would have him next to Van Dijk next season: it was a Champions League winning display.

Karius, well he was Karius. The second blunder was a re-run of the one in the previous round against Roma which he got away with. The first blunder we have seen similar in that he switches off - game vs Arsenal in August he almost got dispossessed in the box. Lacks focus/concentration and his technique is suspect. When he does make a save he has a habit of pushing the ball straight back into the danger zone when it should be pushed to the left or right and away from the opposing players,

Midfield: with Salah on the field pushing the opposition back our limited midfield doesn’t get exposed as much. When he went off, their backline pushed up, allowing their midfield to also push up, and their superior midfield class told. Had we had a quality midfield losing Salah wouldn’t have been as catastrophic as it was.

 

[saint.nick]

Agree completely with needing “players who take initiative”, something we lack in midfield (I'm amazed we had the season we did after losing Coutinho in January, I genuinely thought our top four hopes had gone then).

The reason I say Gini is good enough is due to his ball retention (highest passing success rate of our midfielders), and his ability to spin around the opposing player and move forward (just what Henderson couldn’t do, as seen in the first video). He keeps the ball, and is able to get away from the opposing player without getting flustered, that’s two major assets. A lot of the work he does is unseen. He’s a link man who keeps things ticking along. He was brought up in the Dutch school where they learn how to keep that round thing under their control under pressure. Three Ginis in midfield would never work, as it needs more of the players you state. But one of them is fine. The two others we have are merely just industrious/hard grafters: Milner doesn’t keep the ball nearly as well, plus doesn’t have the ability to turn a player, Hendo doesn’t have movement and also plays very safe (side pass/back pass).

I had four concerns going into the final

Lovren - would be lose concentration at a crucial moment?
Trent - as a raw youngster would he have a Man City type performance or a Roma type?
Karius - as a suspect keeper would he cope?
Midfield - no creativity, massively inferior in terms of technique, would they be able to compensate for this by outworking the opposing midfield?

The first two passed with flying colours. Trent looked mature beyond his years, our right back for the next 10 years. Lovren was immense, would have him next to Van Dijk next season: it was a Champions League winning display.

Karius, well he was Karius. The second blunder was a re-run of the one in the previous round against Roma which he got away with. The first blunder we have seen similar in that he switches off - game vs Arsenal in August he almost got dispossessed in the box. Lacks focus/concentration and his technique is suspect. When he does make a save he has a habit of pushing the ball straight back into the danger zone when it should be pushed to the left or right and away from the opposing players,

Midfield: with Salah on the field pushing the opposition back our limited midfield doesn’t get exposed as much. When he went off, their backline pushed up, allowing their midfield to also push up, and their superior midfield class told. Had we had a quality midfield losing Salah wouldn’t have been as catastrophic as it was.

I agree with what you say about Ginis attributes but despite that and despite doing work unnoticed i still believe that too often he doesnt affect games enough. You see him turn players around and etc in his best games but too often he hardly does anything at all

I dont think TAA is going to be our long term RB. The club want to ease him into midfield, they feel he would be wasted at right back.

I agree about Karius. I do think there is a natural talent in there but his concentration is way too sloppy and cannot be trusted.

Lovren is another player who has been blighted by concentration. Technically and at his best he is actually a great defender and we saw that against real madrid. I really hope he can improve that aspext of his game.

 

[DC80]

Ball retention does affect the game though. It’s a huge asset. That ability to turn (he’s one of the best at it) when closed down by an opponent and get away from him, then pass it on. With three Ginis we could play keep ball all game. Yes we wouldn’t hurt the opposition much (although as he showed at home to Roma when he came on he’s not shabby), but the opposition wouldn’t hurt us as we would have the ball all day.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...verpool-champions-league-final-player-ratings

“The most inventive of Liverpool’s midfield trio but could not get on the ball often enough truly to hurt his opponents. Drove the team forward to the end.”

Yes he’s not a midfield playmaker (we are after two), but having a third is one too many. He’s a calm head that keeps the ball under pressure.

Henderson is the one for me who needs binned. He’s never been a difference maker. He doesn’t drive the team on. His passing is very safe, often backwards/sideways, he can’t escape players when closed down. Milner is almost a clone of Hendo. Two hard working, honest grafters, but way short of the technical ability to compete against the midfielders they came up against on Saturday. Chamberlain is a much more gifted player than both.

Keita, Chamberlain, Fekir (possibly), Gini, plus a top defensive midfielder. We go in with that next season we are challenging for everything.

 

[DC80]

Keita, Chamberlain, Fekir (possibly), Gini, plus a top defensive midfielder. We go in with that next season we are challenging for everything.

And out of nowhere, that “top defensive midfielder” is Fabinho for 43.7 million.

That’s the end of Henderson as a starter.

Mane - Firmino - Salah
———new #10
——Keita - Fabinho

The upgrade in midfield for next season is immense.

 

[thorson1987]

Won't believe any signing news until I see a Melwood Lean.

 

[DC80]

Look at the composure


From Hendo to that is an outrageous upgrade.

 

[thorson1987]

 

[DC80]

Won't believe any signing news until I see a Melwood Lean.

No lean, but he is sitting down.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/303592-liverpool-fc-agree-deal-fabinho

That’s an insanely good signing. Precisely what we have been crying out for.

Physical presence at 6 foot 2, dominant in midfield in winning the ball back, fabulous technique and vision on the ball. He looks Vieria-esque.

Him alongside Keita is a frightening prospect. Keita next year is in a world XI he’s that good. Now just the #10 (Coutinho’s replacement) needed and that’s the front six sorted.

Focus then turns to a new goalkeeper.

I can see why we are 2nd favourites for the league. Get the #10 and gk in and there’s nothing between us and City.

 

[DC80]

For the first time in my life of watching the club (25 years) I am genuinely giddy at the prospect of what the club can achieve.

Pep said at the end of the season we will be the big challenger to Man City next season, he’s right.

 

[thorson1987]

How good are signings that just come out of nowhere.

None of the bullshit weeks of speculation of that we have signed someone only for the deal to fall through

 

[Jack_Napier]

How good are signings that just come out of nowhere.

None of the bullshit weeks of speculation of that we have signed someone only for the deal to fall through

Usually we gotta take future signings on illegal dates to Blackpool. This is a breath of fresh air

 

[Twizzle]

Usually we gotta take future signings on illegal dates to Blackpool. This is a breath of fresh air

I'd say your UCL campaign probably helped a lot.

 

[Jack_Napier]

I'd say your UCL campaign probably helped a lot.

100%, the “project” so to speak Klopp is undertaking as well as the cl campaign would be helping for us. Now just need to see what it’ll do for our depth which the final cleRly highlighted as a problem as well as the GK.

 

[DC80]

Think Klopp is a major pull. His enthusiasm and likeable personality draws people in, as well as the fabulous attacking football of course.

Plus this is Liverpool FC we are talking about here, one of the two most iconic clubs in England.

The CL run itself wouldn’t have been a determining factor (bar showcasing the exciting play). Fabinho stated he spoke to Firmino, to Klopp, plus he was attracted to the club itself.

It’s weird to say this but the CL final was just a stepping stone for us. Usually it’s the destination. The club got to the final prematurely, we over achieved (i was just happy to get out of the group stage), the team was nowhere near complete. We went into the final with a midfield that Klopp inherited, it’s not his. He stated pre match “we have to drag them down to our level”...he was referring to the gulf in class in midfield between the two teams. There’s no gulf anymore. Fabinho, Keita and possibly Fekir, all in one transfer window, it’s next season that we see Klopp’s team. He’s had to assemble it patiently over five transfer windows.

 

[cb4]

Trip of a lifetime. Head still hurts.
Heart still broken.

Fabinho aye. I don't care at the moment.

 

[Captain Apollo]

Turns out Karius was suffering from a concussion during the CL Final -

http://www.espnfc.com.au/liverpool/...suffered-concussion-in-champions-league-final

Not saying he shouldn't be replaced, but thought people might find the above of some interest is all.