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Cricket Crap

TheParraboy

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I said innocent until proven guilty...

interesting isn't it

Begs the question why was he stood down from side then, in particular the ashes tour if that was the case?

He lost sponsors and money
 

Bazal

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99,802
interesting isn't it

Begs the question why was he stood down from side then, in particular the ashes tour if that was the case?

He lost sponsors and money

The footage is pretty damning. Obviously he's been acquitted of any criminal charge, but what is undeniable is that he chased after two blokes and rearranged their faces. Whatever got him off the affray charge is inconsequential to a sponsor (for eg) because the footage shows a bloke they endorse snotting two dudes, one of whom isn't actually fighting back at that point...it's about image for sponsors and even the ECB and, guilty of the legal offence he was charged with or not, the image is very clear.

Anyway I still find it mind-blowing that blokes can tamper with a ball and be suspended for a year, while a guy can belt the shit out of two men and be allowed to play.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
interesting isn't it

Begs the question why was he stood down from side then, in particular the ashes tour if that was the case?

He lost sponsors and money

Actually begs the question whether he will get back in the team, or who will be dropped for him to return.

Stokes and Curran were brilliant in the first test. Curran had a good second test and Woakes had a dream performance really.

Rashid did not nothing at all, like seriously didn't bowl nor face a single ball nor even take a catch. So he could miss out.

There's no point at all in playing 6 bowlers for these short rain interrupted games.

Jimmy is the England attack core, and Broad got it together in the last test.

Curran is the likely one to be squeezed out, but it must be tempting to keep him and replace someone else.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
The footage is pretty damning. Obviously he's been acquitted of any criminal charge, but what is undeniable is that he chased after two blokes and rearranged their faces. Whatever got him off the affray charge is inconsequential to a sponsor (for eg) because the footage shows a bloke they endorse snotting two dudes, one of whom isn't actually fighting back at that point...it's about image for sponsors and even the ECB and, guilty of the legal offence he was charged with or not, the image is very clear.

Anyway I still find it mind-blowing that blokes can tamper with a ball and be suspended for a year, while a guy can belt the shit out of two men and be allowed to play.

It would be mind-blowing to say the sandpapering of the ball was done in self defence ;)
 

Twizzle

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150,959
Anyway I still find it mind-blowing that blokes can tamper with a ball and be suspended for a year, while a guy can belt the shit out of two men and be allowed to play.

It really is mind blowing, cuz in all other countries its just a 1 match suspension.

Hardly a level playing field.
 

Bazal

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99,802
It really is mind blowing, cuz in all other countries its just a 1 match suspension.

Hardly a level playing field.

I've got no problem with the board coming down hard on ball tampering. My problem is that it's just our board, and what Stokes did is unquestionably worse, whether it fits the legal definition of affray in court or not.

No one with a brain reckons that rubbing some sandpaper on a ball is in any way worse than king-hitting someone, ESPECIALLY in light of the tragic one punch deaths that have happened all over the world. Stokes could have killed someone, in real terms. I'm not suggesting the court erred, by any means. He is not guilty and that's the verdict. But the fact that he's not guilty of affray doesn't mean he never punched the blokes and I just think the ECB have been incredibly spineless.
 

Twizzle

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If Sutherland were in charge of the ECB, Stokes would have got a life ban
 

Bazal

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If Sutherland were in charge of the ECB, Stokes would have got a life ban

Mate Sutherland is so clueless he'd have probably given the ball tamperers a year and stoically defended his decision to allow Stokes to play in the very next breath...
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
I've got no problem with the board coming down hard on ball tampering. My problem is that it's just our board, and what Stokes did is unquestionably worse, whether it fits the legal definition of affray in court or not.

No one with a brain reckons that rubbing some sandpaper on a ball is in any way worse than king-hitting someone, ESPECIALLY in light of the tragic one punch deaths that have happened all over the world. Stokes could have killed someone, in real terms. I'm not suggesting the court erred, by any means. He is not guilty and that's the verdict. But the fact that he's not guilty of affray doesn't mean he never punched the blokes and I just think the ECB have been incredibly spineless.

That's not how law works. The fact he's not guilty of affray, and wasn't charged with assault, is because he had a defence of self defence, which isn't just an excuse for punching someone, it is a total justification for it. People have the right to punch people - if its done in self defence, or consented to in a boxing/MMA/whatever else ring. Heck you're allowed to shoot people with self defence. The issue is whether the force used was reasonable. If unreasonable, the defence fails, if reasonable, the defence succeeds and the actions are justified.

As for the ECB, they suspended and stood down a person, despite the presumption of innocent until proven guilty, and now he has been found not guilty of any crime. The jury found Ben Stokes to be acting in self defence. So what should the ECB do, ban anyone who lawfully defends themselves or someone else? That makes no sense.

Stokes either used excessive force, or he did not. Excessive force is not justified under self defence. He wasn't charged with assault, nor convicted with affray because the jury found his actions amounted to self defence, which means they believe he did not act unreasonably with the severity of force used nor alleged continuation of the fight.
 
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Twizzle

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150,959
39208371_2166084557000610_6722474337728724992_n.jpg
 

Pommy

Coach
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14,657
The footage is pretty damning. Obviously he's been acquitted of any criminal charge, but what is undeniable is that he chased after two blokes and rearranged their faces. Whatever got him off the affray charge is inconsequential to a sponsor (for eg) because the footage shows a bloke they endorse snotting two dudes, one of whom isn't actually fighting back at that point...it's about image for sponsors and even the ECB and, guilty of the legal offence he was charged with or not, the image is very clear.

Anyway I still find it mind-blowing that blokes can tamper with a ball and be suspended for a year, while a guy can belt the shit out of two men and be allowed to play.

Some were guilty one wasn’t.
Plus one is outside the game and one really brings the sport in to question. I’ve no issue with him being stood down from the ashes but it’s not compatible to what smith did.
 

ANTiLAG

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8,014
I’ve no issue with him being stood down from the ashes.

I did, and still do. Innocent until proven guilty has to mean more than suspending someone for "bringing the game into disrepute until found innocent".

But, as it was an away series, it probably spared Ben Stokes suffering a possible visa press circus trying to get into Australia. So there may have been more to this. But I am speculating.
 

Bazal

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Some were guilty one wasn’t.
Plus one is outside the game and one really brings the sport in to question. I’ve no issue with him being stood down from the ashes but it’s not compatible to what smith did.

You're right, it's not comparible, it's infinitely worse.

Look, I'm actually happy that he's been found not guilty in the courts, but I definitely think that there needs to be a bigger on-field consequence for his actions. He absolutely punched two guys. A member I am now ignoring once tried to argue that David Warner giving Joe Root a love-tap in a bar made him the worst human being in cricket...well that was outside the game, and I'm not arguing that Warner isn't a f**kwit, but Stokes has done much worse here. The ECB have been spineless in allowing him to play IMO.

As I said before it's about image as much as anything. He may not be guilty of affray, but there is clear video footage of him punching two blokes lights out. How does that not bring the game into disrepute? Walk away. It was completely unnecessary.

There is a huge inconsistency in the way that indiscretions are punished in cricket, I suppose is my gripe. If it was Warner there'd be calls for a life ban from all quarters.
 

Pommy

Coach
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14,657
You're right, it's not comparible, it's infinitely worse.

Look, I'm actually happy that he's been found not guilty in the courts, but I definitely think that there needs to be a bigger on-field consequence for his actions. He absolutely punched two guys. A member I am now ignoring once tried to argue that David Warner giving Joe Root a love-tap in a bar made him the worst human being in cricket...well that was outside the game, and I'm not arguing that Warner isn't a f**kwit, but Stokes has done much worse here. The ECB have been spineless in allowing him to play IMO.

As I said before it's about image as much as anything. He may not be guilty of affray, but there is clear video footage of him punching two blokes lights out. How does that not bring the game into disrepute? Walk away. It was completely unnecessary.

There is a huge inconsistency in the way that indiscretions are punished in cricket, I suppose is my gripe. If it was Warner there'd be calls for a life ban from all quarters.

It doesn’t bring the core of the game in to disrepute.
Sure it’s a bad look for the sport but he wasn’t trying to alter the outcome of a game. This is a matter outside the sport which is why I find Smith’s much worse.
You’re talking about banning someone for not committing a crime. They are up there with Tim Simona who was banned for life from the NRL.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
It doesn’t bring the core of the game in to disrepute.
Sure it’s a bad look for the sport but he wasn’t trying to alter the outcome of a game. This is a matter outside the sport which is why I find Smith’s much worse.
You’re talking about banning someone for not committing a crime. They are up there with Tim Simona who was banned for life from the NRL.

Yeah it is pretty simple.

Ben Stokes - not guilty, therefore his punches are found to be justified and lawful self defense.

Sandpaper boys - broke the rules of cricket. CA didn't need to ban them for so long, but they chose to, and the players didn't appeal the decision of ban length through the courts.

Trying to compare Ben Stokes not being still banned who has now even been cleared in a court with people who have admitted their guilt and accepted their ban for ball tampering is just absurd. Stokes' had a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and he has now been found not guilty!

To suggest punishing people in employment for acting in lawful self defense is utterly ridiculous. The right to self defense isn't given up just because someone has a high profile and well paid job. Nor can it be given up as terms of employment. Nor should they lose their job or be sanctioned for executing that right.

If ECB or ICC try to ban him now for punching someone, they're in violation of the law. They have to try and claim it was for public drunkenness or something else that brought the game into disrepute. Not the lawfully justified punches as found by the jury. That's how the law works.

The moral of the story, don't attack people with a bottle around Ben Stokes, he'll knock you for six. (Stokes could really cash in on this event now with sponsorship and merchandise deals).
 
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JJ

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31,778
In other news, Gary Stead is the new NZ coach - starting September...
 

TheParraboy

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That's not how law works. The fact he's not guilty of affray, and wasn't charged with assault, is because he had a defence of self defence, which isn't just an excuse for punching someone, it is a total justification for it. People have the right to punch people - if its done in self defence, or consented to in a boxing/MMA/whatever else ring. Heck you're allowed to shoot people with self defence. The issue is whether the force used was reasonable. If unreasonable, the defence fails, if reasonable, the defence succeeds and the actions are justified.

Are you able to shoot people trying to run away, in self defence?

I suggest it is relative and soley based on the jurastiction , which can be varied greatly pending on how the jury analyse the events.

With Stokes verdict, it appears excessive force ie running after cowards and belting them was deemed appropriate and allowable to claim self defence. As was Hales, who self defence included stomping and kicking a bloke on the ground.

I’d love to know who was on the jury, were some of them cricket nuts , some gay/lesbians etc...
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
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8,014
Are you able to shoot people trying to run away, in self defence?

I suggest it is relative and soley based on the jurastiction , which can be varied greatly pending on how the jury analyse the events.

With Stokes verdict, it appears excessive force ie running after cowards and belting them was deemed appropriate and allowable to claim self defence. As was Hales, who self defence included stomping and kicking a bloke on the ground.

I’d love to know who was on the jury, were some of them cricket nuts , some gay/lesbians etc...

1 Jurisdiction in trial refers to the courts ability to hear and determine a matter within a region of the sovereign's law. It has nothing to do with juries. It basically means the HCA and Australian Government legislation for example, doesn't determine what happened in Bristol. Nor would an Employment Court in the UK be able to determine the matter.

That said, self defense is the same in NZ, Aus, and UK. We borrow each other's judgments on deciding it. Self defense is fairly universal in all law.

2 Excessive force is never deemed appropriate (the word is reasonable). If force is excessive, it is not self-defence, but assault or affray.

3 Hales wasn't charged. You do realize the aggressors had a bottle which initiates the fracas, right? Then one guy went and grabbed steel bar.

4 The jury was purged for being cricket fans. I would be surprised in a Human Rights era whether people could be thinned for their sexual orientation, but hey - all white jury and all that, the common law has been there. The parties don't have to give a reason to exclude a potential juror, so profiling still happens, but the jurors may not be asked that question directly (and not in the USA since 2014). They were asked about cricket. But in a recent poll of UK kids, stuff all could identify Joe Root. Cricket isn't big there. Football is.
 
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