Expanding the NRL through Promotion and Relegation

[siv]

Too many teams.
If there were to be P/R you would at least want to improve the standard of the top division.
10 top division teams and 10 second division.
There are not enough TV time slots for 28 teams. If you had 20 teams there would be enough times slots for all of them to be on free to air or fox.

The concept of improving a division by reducing teams is a farce

All that actually happens is a well known fact that someone has to lose

Less teams means teams higher up the ladder lose more often

Less games and teams mean less crowds and less product to sell

NFL has 32 teams
EPL 20 teams

And when RL had 20 teams in 1995 RL was at a all time high before the SL war over pay-tv rights

 

[T-Boon]

The concept of improving a division by reducing teams is a farce

All that actually happens is a well known fact that someone has to lose

Less teams means teams higher up the ladder lose more often

Less games and teams mean less crowds and less product to sell

NFL has 32 teams
EPL 20 teams

And when RL had 20 teams in 1995 RL was at a all time high before the SL war over pay-tv rights

What I am talking about is my belief (which I think is widely held) that the quality of players are not there to justify the 16 teams we currently have.
If we go to P/R we should take the opportunity to reduce the number of top division teams to 10.

 

[CC_Roosters]

The concept of improving a division by reducing teams is a farce

All that actually happens is a well known fact that someone has to lose

Less teams means teams higher up the ladder lose more often

Less games and teams mean less crowds and less product to sell

NFL has 32 teams
EPL 20 teams

And when RL had 20 teams in 1995 RL was at a all time high before the SL war over pay-tv rights

The NRL would have 20 teams in two divisions, two ultra competitive cut throat leagues with movement between the two annually based on sporting merit plus the opportunity to host a competition with integrity in terms of the fixture and schedule. There would be 10 games a week to sell to television most of which would still involve the 16 established clubs on top of teams in markets in New Zealand, Perth, South Queensland etc.....

You have also contradicted yourself. Yes the NFL has 32 teams, but those teams only play 16 regular season games which is one of the lowest numbers in professional sports leagues around the world but has the highest average (I think). So less games is not necessarily less crowds as each game takes on more significance.

Also in my mind the season would only be reduced from 24 matches to 22 matches (see my earlier posts about splitting the ladder after home and away for the 10 teams to determine the final 4 fixtures to make 22 all up. And this is 22 matches which have an impact on who wins the premiership and who survives, rather than the current devalued compromised schedule

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

I think any more than 12 per division is to many. It important for the competition integrity that each team plays each other home and away. If there is say 14 or 16 teams in a division I think it's unreasonable to ask a team to play 26 or 30 games a year, especially if u want them to fit in rep games and finals. When you looking at something as important as getting promoted or relegated it's not fair to have a team play the number 1 team in the comp twice while another team only has to play them once

 

[Perth Red]

What I am talking about is my belief (which I think is widely held) that the quality of players are not there to justify the 16 teams we currently have.
If we go to P/R we should take the opportunity to reduce the number of top division teams to 10.

I don't believe quality has anything to do with playing numbers. It is about elite pathways. More teams should equal more elite pathways. The failing is in the clubs/NRL not investing enough in this area.

 

[siv]

What I am talking about is my belief (which I think is widely held) that the quality of players are not there to justify the 16 teams we currently have.
If we go to P/R we should take the opportunity to reduce the number of top division teams to 10.

RL in general has gone backwards since we moved away from a 3 senior grade and 4 grade junior structure

We force into retirement too many players when they turn 21 rather than giving them a NRL aligned reserve grade and even a potential u23s option

Like in 1992 when Perth entered a RG team so they could prepare players for FG in 1995

Any team below the elite group will alwyas be heavily dependant on developing "waves" of junior players - not just picking up discards

 

[siv]

The NRL would have 20 teams in two divisions, two ultra competitive cut throat leagues with movement between the two annually based on sporting merit plus the opportunity to host a competition with integrity in terms of the fixture and schedule. There would be 10 games a week to sell to television most of which would still involve the 16 established clubs on top of teams in markets in New Zealand, Perth, South Queensland etc.....

You have also contradicted yourself. Yes the NFL has 32 teams, but those teams only play 16 regular season games which is one of the lowest numbers in professional sports leagues around the world but has the highest average (I think). So less games is not necessarily less crowds as each game takes on more significance.

Also in my mind the season would only be reduced from 24 matches to 22 matches (see my earlier posts about splitting the ladder after home and away for the 10 teams to determine the final 4 fixtures to make 22 all up. And this is 22 matches which have an impact on who wins the premiership and who survives, rather than the current devalued compromised schedule

Main.issue is c that the NRL clubs will never vote for a proposal that relegates 6 clubs

Thats why if this is going to work you would need to "promote" 2 teams and make it a 18 team 25 round comp

With a relegations final series

Eg spoon team, nsw cup winners, qld cup winners, nz cup winners 3 round robin series

Winner promoted

 

[Marlins]

Main.issue is c that the NRL clubs will never vote for a proposal that relegates 6 clubs

Thats why if this is going to work you would need to "promote" 2 teams and make it a 18 team 25 round comp

With a relegations final series

Eg spoon team, nsw cup winners, qld cup winners, nz cup winners 3 round robin series

Winner promoted

Have to have a separate 2nd division Comp can't have Nsw cup n Qld cup teams being promoted because they are feeder clubs. You would have take teams out of them 2 Comps so they can't be feeder clubs.

 

[Perth Red]

20 team comp, 19 game season with knock out cup featuring NRL and non NRL teams and break for rep weekends.

 

[siv]

Have to have a separate 2nd division Comp can't have Nsw cup n Qld cup teams being promoted because they are feeder clubs. You would have take teams out of them 2 Comps so they can't be feeder clubs.

Become feasible if we have National RG

 

[flippikat]

20 team comp, 19 game season with knock out cup featuring NRL and non NRL teams and break for rep weekends.

That's the competition I'd like to see.

Player depth issues aside, any more than 20 teams, and you strike problems with scheduling - only so much time in the weekends, so you'd have a lot of games running at the same time. With 20 teams you might have 1 or 2 timeslots where games run at the same time, but that's about it.

Next 4 teams for mine would have to be Perth, Brisbane (next expansion, taking it to 18 teams), then NZ 2 and Adelaide to go to 20.

That, coupled with the odd game taken to the likes of Darwin, Cairns, Central Coast etc (Heck even Tasmania) would do the job. Look to relocate a Sydney team (partially or completely) to the Central Coast.

 

[adamkungl]

That's the competition I'd like to see.

Player depth issues aside, any more than 20 teams, and you strike problems with scheduling - only so much time in the weekends, so you'd have a lot of games running at the same time. With 20 teams you might have 1 or 2 timeslots where games run at the same time, but that's about it.

Next 4 teams for mine would have to be Perth, Brisbane (next expansion, taking it to 18 teams), then NZ 2 and Adelaide to go to 20.

That, coupled with the odd game taken to the likes of Darwin, Cairns, Central Coast etc (Heck even Tasmania) would do the job. Look to relocate a Sydney team (partially or completely) to the Central Coast.

This is probably about right. Then if a Sydney team was to fall down some time in the future you would open the possibility for Central Coast or a 4th SE QLD or 3rd NZ team.

I'd love to see Central Coast Bears given a shot but I think that ship has sailed.
In my ideal world Manly moving their first grade up the coast full-time and keeping their 2nd division on the beaches would be good for them imo but I doubt the club or fans agree at all.
Also Tigers would shift most games to Campbeltown and Dragons to Wollongong.

It's worth noting that the 'every game must be at different timeslots and watchable live' concept is a very recent Australian one. I wouldn't say it's completely necessary.

 

[flippikat]

This is probably about right. Then if a Sydney team was to fall down some time in the future you would open the possibility for Central Coast or a 4th SE QLD or 3rd NZ team.

I'd love to see Central Coast Bears given a shot but I think that ship has sailed.
In my ideal world Manly moving their first grade up the coast full-time and keeping their 2nd division on the beaches would be good for them imo but I doubt the club or fans agree at all.
Also Tigers would shift most games to Campbeltown and Dragons to Wollongong.

It's worth noting that the 'every game must be at different timeslots and watchable live' concept is a very recent Australian one. I wouldn't say it's completely necessary.

Cheers, I think you've raised a few points there that are worth some expanding on. (No pun intended..hehe)

The Central Coast was originally a solution to the over-saturated Sydney market - Norths had the wisdom to see the writing on the wall, and tried to be proactive.. but as you said that ship has sailed. The Central Coast Bears doesn't solve a problem that was one of that move's big selling points.

The solution is that the Central Coast should be earmarked as the destination for a CURRENT NRL Sydney club to relocate to. The NRL could put incentives there for partial or full relocation, and failing that if a Sydney club goes broke just make it a bottom line for any bailout package. I know that sounds harsh, but the club would still be relatively close to Sydney & "away" memberships can be arranged for Sydney-based fans of the club to attend their away games that are in Sydney.

Put it this way - it's an easier pill to swallow than asking a club to move interstate. (Which has been suggested for Sydney clubs in the past on this forum)

As for the Bears themselves, got to feel for them. They lost out on a truly visionary gamble to relocate, endured a trainwreck of a joint venture, watched their rival get the license when it fell apart, been strung along by the NRL re:expansion, and now the Titans are travelling well I'm not sure whether their bid to buy them will pan out.

Totally agree on Tigers to the Campbelltown & Dragons to Wollongong. Stop spreading their home games around so many venues, and get them to establish their own base, their own fortress. As per above, "away" memberships for Dragons fans in Sydney helps here.

Good point on the overlapping games & timeslots. Many other competitions in the world run games at the same time, but we just need to be careful that overlapping games doesn't erode the TV rights value due to divided audiences.

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

That's the competition I'd like to see.

Player depth issues aside, any more than 20 teams, and you strike problems with scheduling - only so much time in the weekends, so you'd have a lot of games running at the same time. With 20 teams you might have 1 or 2 timeslots where games run at the same time, but that's about it.

Next 4 teams for mine would have to be Perth, Brisbane (next expansion, taking it to 18 teams), then NZ 2 and Adelaide to go to 20.

That, coupled with the odd game taken to the likes of Darwin, Cairns, Central Coast etc (Heck even Tasmania) would do the job. Look to relocate a Sydney team (partially or completely) to the Central Coast.

I like the look of this although I would have the Central Coast over Adelaide. Adelaide has very little junior program and interest. The NRL would be looking at investing a great deal of money to get a team up and running at this stage. In my opinion far more beneficial to invest in the game at lower levels to make sure it ca sustain a team. The Central Coast is an area ready to go and would need little financial backing. I understand the NSW argument however the Central Coast is its own growing region and with the extra Bears fans that would return they are a smarter option at this stage.

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

This is probably about right. Then if a Sydney team was to fall down some time in the future you would open the possibility for Central Coast or a 4th SE QLD or 3rd NZ team.

I'd love to see Central Coast Bears given a shot but I think that ship has sailed.
In my ideal world Manly moving their first grade up the coast full-time and keeping their 2nd division on the beaches would be good for them imo but I doubt the club or fans agree at all.
Also Tigers would shift most games to Campbeltown and Dragons to Wollongong.

It's worth noting that the 'every game must be at different timeslots and watchable live' concept is a very recent Australian one. I wouldn't say it's completely necessary.

I strongly agree with making Campbeltown and Wollongong the base for the Tigers and Dragons. I have no problem them taking the odd game to Leichardt, Kograh or even ANZ. Both areas are thriving and deserve a full time team not 3 or 4 games a year. Not to mention it gives the 2 clubs a strong point of difference from the other sydney clubs

 

[CC_Roosters]

To me

Cheers, I think you've raised a few points there that are worth some expanding on. (No pun intended..hehe)

The Central Coast was originally a solution to the over-saturated Sydney market - Norths had the wisdom to see the writing on the wall, and tried to be proactive.. but as you said that ship has sailed. The Central Coast Bears doesn't solve a problem that was one of that move's big selling points.

The solution is that the Central Coast should be earmarked as the destination for a CURRENT NRL Sydney club to relocate to. The NRL could put incentives there for partial or full relocation, and failing that if a Sydney club goes broke just make it a bottom line for any bailout package. I know that sounds harsh, but the club would still be relatively close to Sydney & "away" memberships can be arranged for Sydney-based fans of the club to attend their away games that are in Sydney.

Put it this way - it's an easier pill to swallow than asking a club to move interstate. (Which has been suggested for Sydney clubs in the past on this forum)

As for the Bears themselves, got to feel for them. They lost out on a truly visionary gamble to relocate, endured a trainwreck of a joint venture, watched their rival get the license when it fell apart, been strung along by the NRL re:expansion, and now the Titans are travelling well I'm not sure whether their bid to buy them will pan out.

Totally agree on Tigers to the Campbelltown & Dragons to Wollongong. Stop spreading their home games around so many venues, and get them to establish their own base, their own fortress. As per above, "away" memberships for Dragons fans in Sydney helps here.

Good point on the overlapping games & timeslots. Many other competitions in the world run games at the same time, but we just need to be careful that overlapping games doesn't erode the TV rights value due to divided audiences.

Promotion and relegation between two tiers in the NRL really solves the problem of saturation in Sydney. Obviously there isn't the money/sponsors to go around to meet the needs of 8.5 clubs in a 16 team premiership with other professional structure to retreat if they suffer from chronic poor form or finances. But if you reduce that demand for top dollar to only a few clubs at a time as splitting the league would do then you can have everybody playing at the level appropriate to their current circumstances. Circumstances which they can change through sporting merit, i.e winning promotion. We can also then bring in the Central coast as a club in its own right (bears or other) into the second division.

Really, what has been discussed ticks all the boxes
-Embraces all or most of the playing regions and outposts- expansion of professionalism
-Schedule with integrity
-Regular season with meaning at both ends of the table
-More games to sell to TV
-Preservation of existing brands
-High quality premier division

I feel that 20 teams split into 2 divisions is achievable immediately if not in the short term if the clubs could see beyond then end of their nose and the next dollar.

What would the funding model look like is the biggest unknown. I think both should operate under the same salary cap, so as to not restrict ambitious clubs who can spend the cash to chase promotion, with maybe the added measure of only spending a percentage of revenue on football. As an example for funding grants, give the premiership clubs $11-12m p.a and the championship $6-7m p.a.

 

[umina panther]

Clubs going broke every year would do wonders for the game

 

[alien]

Based on the current NRL ladder:

Division 1
1. Melbourne Storm
2. Cronulla Sutherland Sharks
3. Canberra Raiders
4. Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs
5. North Queensland Cowboys
6. Brisbane Broncos
7. Penrith Panthers
8. Gold Coast Titans
9. Auckland Warriors
10. St George Illawarra Dragons

Division 2
1. Manly - Central Coast Sea Eagles
2. Eastern Suburbs Roosters
3. South Sydney Rabbitohs
4. Parramatta Eels
5. Newcastle Knights
6. Western Magpies (Perth)
7. Adelaide Tigers
8. Sunshine Coast Bears
9. Christchurch
10. Wellington


Each team plays the other teams in it's division twice.

Division 1: Teams finishing 9th and 10th are relegated.

Division 2: The 2 teams that make the Grand Final are promoted.

Top 4 Finals System in each Division. Week 1: 1 v 4. 2 v 3. Winners to play in the Grand Final in Week 2 of Finals.

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

Based on the current NRL ladder:

Division 1
1. Melbourne Storm
2. Cronulla Sutherland Sharks
3. Canberra Raiders
4. Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs
5. North Queensland Cowboys
6. Brisbane Broncos
7. Penrith Panthers
8. Gold Coast Titans
9. Auckland Warriors
10. St George Illawarra Dragons

Division 2
1. Manly - Central Coast Sea Eagles
2. Eastern Suburbs Roosters
3. South Sydney Rabbitohs
4. Parramatta Eels
5. Newcastle Knights
6. Western Magpies (Perth)
7. Adelaide Tigers
8. Sunshine Coast Bears
9. Christchurch
10. Wellington


Each team plays the other teams in it's division twice.

Division 1: Teams finishing 9th and 10th are relegated.

Division 2: The 2 teams that make the Grand Final are promoted.

Top 4 Finals System in each Division. Week 1: 1 v 4. 2 v 3. Winners to play in the Grand Final in Week 2 of Finals.

I think the Central Coast, Adelaide and Perth all deserve there own identities. Not really sure the Sunshine Coast would really attract a place in the comp. I personally still prefer 2 comps of 12 but where certaintly on the same page.

 

[alien]

I think the Central Coast, Adelaide and Perth all deserve there own identities. Not really sure the Sunshine Coast would really attract a place in the comp. I personally still prefer 2 comps of 12 but where certaintly on the same page.

The Sunshine Coast has a population of nearly 300,000 people, but I'd be happy if Brisbane got a second side instead, playing their home games at Suncorp Stadium, scheduled so there is a game at Suncorp Stadium every week.

Those 20 teams was just my idea for a promotion/relegation system, but I think we should just have the 1 comp but have 3 relocations from Sydney.

Roosters to Perth
Bulldogs to Brisbane
Sharks to Adelaide

Manly Warringah Sea Eagles to change their name to Manly - Central Coast Sea Eagles, and to play half of their home games at Gosford Stadium. They would take over the Central Coast and North Sydney areas as their junior districts.

Wests to play at least half of their home games at Campbelltown or at a new Liverpool Stadium in the future.

St George Illawarra should be playing half of their home games at Wollongong Stadium.

No doubt this would piss off some fans but some hard decisions have to be made. You can't have so many Sydney clubs and then have all these other teams in areas where there should be teams because there would then be too many teams and there isn't enough talent for that. The comp and product would be too weak. At least with relocations you still keep the same mascot, colours, jerseys, and it's a continuation of the records.