Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

[Perth Red]

Lol! Are you serious?.You actually think Melbourne was the in for North Sydney being exiled? Are you aware that their were 22 top flight clubs in Australia in 1997? The Storm was created out of the carve up of the Mariners, Adelaide Rams and Perth Reds. Melbourne Storm WAS THE ONLY POSITIVE FROM THE SUPERLEAGUE WAR!
In Australia we don't do level 2 crap mate! It's first grade or your club is nothing! That's the way it is. Your relentless and ignorant attack on the Sydney clubs is astounding. And all the Sydney clubs including North Sydney should be respected and maintained/supported in the top flight. You still dont get it! The implosion theme is stuck in that head of yours and it cant see the massive damage it would do to the competition. Once again YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!

What you d9nt get is the nrl has given every indication it will not go beyond 16 clubs. 8 years we’ve been waiting. Another 5 yers before they’ll even consider it again. All the signs is they don’t want more slices of the pie. SO it’s what we’ve got and do nt grow the game, or make some room for new markets.

I’d love to see a 20club 19 game season but it will not happen in the next 40 years, if ever!

 

[Stallion]

There was only so many places, they could have kept ns and not had Melbourne, regardless it was more the point I was making that IF the nrl is to remain at 16 clubs then losing two Sydney clubs is likely more than offset by bringing in new bigger markets

Yes. There was a place and still is a place they could base North Sydney Bears! It's called North Sydney along with the very easy to travel to (direct railway access line)modern Central Coast ground in Gosford ! It's astounding how the answer was already looking at these administrators and they could not work it out? They had to re admit South Sydney through shear weight of public opinion and readmitted the Gold Coast through strategic necessity. The designated number of clubs figured from the "superleague" agreement was wrong and reckless from the disastrous 14 number decision! It cost the code more by carving up 8 clubs in total from 22 than is realised. When I heard the first initial split announcement in 1995 I was shocked and shook my head and said to myself "Something dodgy is going on." I had the same reaction when they officially announced the reduction of clubs in 1998! However this time, I said under my breath," The bad guys have got their way!" A dismantling of one the great sports competitions of the world!

 

[Stallion]

What you d9nt get is the nrl has given every indication it will not go beyond 16 clubs. 8 years we’ve been waiting. Another 5 yers before they’ll even consider it again. All the signs is they don’t want more slices of the pie. SO it’s what we’ve got and do nt grow the game, or make some room for new markets.

I’d love to see a 20club 19 game season but it will not happen in the next 40 years, if ever!

What you fail to acknowkedge is the pie can get bigger. With more teams and more 'slices' will leave a stronger and tasty range of pie slices! (So to speak ) Your head in the sand stance of "no more teams" is repeatedly negative and is reflective of the poor administration outlook within the code. Additional clubs will absolutely add worth and "flavour " to this competition. It’s a given that North Sydney should be where it should have been (Central Coast/and North Sydney itself) and Brisbane should have maintained a second team. Both of these simple and common sense decisions would have increased the codes footprint in sponsorship, local derby crowds, tv ratings, junior player numbers and consolidated the code in these areas with minimal upsetting and outrage to a great competition. With 18 clubs (we assume the idiotic retracted decisions re South Sydney & Gold Coast were fixed )then a dedicated effort to bring in a club based in WA should have been an absolute strategy along with another expansion club over a calculated and phased in period with franchise sponsorship, business plans, logistics, junior development in place! But no these incompetent administrators sat on their hands and did a few 'must do' quick fixes and let this very attractive competition and the Australian sports public down.

 

[Perth Red]

I think it can, you think it can, but the NRL does not agree, and they are the one making the decisions. IF the game is to stay at 16 clubs it needs to find space to bring in new markets. Only way to do that is rationalisation of existing structure and best place to do that is in a city with nine teams. If the NRL has a long term plan to get to 20 clubs all well and good, but 8 years on, and with a confirmed 5 years more of no growth, I see no sign that it does and all the communication from the NRL is that it will not go beyond 16 clubs.

 

[Stallion]

I think it can, you think it can, but the NRL does not agree, and they are the one making the decisions. IF the game is to stay at 16 clubs it needs to find space to bring in new markets. Only way to do that is rationalisation of existing structure and best place to do that is in a city with nine teams. If the NRL has a long term plan to get to 20 clubs all well and good, but 8 years on, and with a confirmed 5 years more of no growth, I see no sign that it does and all the communication from the NRL is that it will not go beyond 16 clubs.

I'd suggest stick with the "all well and good" line of thought! As pontificating and trying to justify the flawed implosion option is not wise. You only give those 'bad' administrators that are within the NRL more fuel for incompetent strategies and decisions. Don't trumpet the crap as the bad muso will play its tune!

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Ok insults out of the way (and tbh I cant be arsed to go into the increase in crowd avg, TV audience, NRL revenue, Broadcast value etc etc to prove you wrong since 1995) , now answer the question

If the NRL can not go beyond 16 clubs would you rather see
A) no new growth in the NRL and stick with what we have for the foreseeable future
B) Relegate, relocate or merge a Sydney club or two to allow us to capitalise on the value and growth in other markets that expansion will bring

Come on, A or B ?

B.

The Sydney clubs that are no longer up to NRL standard can live on in NSW Cup where their brand survives in tact and fans can attend their games at suburban grounds against traditional Sydney rival clubs. Then a spot opens up in the NRL for a big city club without a presence (like Perth) to start to grow into the next Melbourne Storm.

 

[Perth Red]

B.

The Sydney clubs that are no longer up to NRL standard can live on in NSW Cup where their brand survives in tact and fans can attend their games at suburban grounds against traditional Sydney rival clubs. Then a spot opens up in the NRL for a big city club without a presence (like Perth) to start to grow into the next Melbourne Storm.

Stallions not going to like that lol

 

[siv]

There are only 3 real options

1 - status quo 16 teams - where NRL props up regional clubs that fall over

2 - expand to a conference based system until you get to 20-24 teams and do something like what happens in the ESL

3 - promotion / relegation

But the elephant in the room is the QRL

Who have a desire to return to the equal footing with the NSWRL and have their comp on par with anything the NSWRL or NRL arrange

I still think we should just go there by disbanding the NRL in the same manner we have done with the NYC

 

[Stallion]

B.

The Sydney clubs that are no longer up to NRL standard can live on in NSW Cup where their brand survives in tact and fans can attend their games at suburban grounds against traditional Sydney rival clubs. Then a spot opens up in the NRL for a big city club without a presence (like Perth) to start to grow into the next Melbourne Storm.

Notice you are not using total aggregate crowd numbers, junior participation numbers and host of indicators that show a code in decline. So perpetuate the myth. The only benefactor will be the other codes encroaching in on rugby league heartlands and minimising genuine expansion. Well done mate! If that rocks your boat? Go for it. Forget those generational fans, forget those many fans outside of Sydney that follow Sydney clubs , forget that the reason why the NRL is a top flight competition is because of the Sydney clubs. Mind you the AFL know this for their Melbourne clubs and laugh everytime RL reduce its Sydney footprint. And by the way so does rugby union. They will go to any lengths to see RL become weaker in Australia. Great work champ! If that's what you want it will happen with the implosion logic.

 

[Stallion]

There are only 3 real options

1 - status quo 16 teams - where NRL props up regional clubs that fall over

2 - expand to a conference based system until you get to 20-24 teams and do something like what happens in the ESL

3 - promotion / relegation

But the elephant in the room is the QRL

Who have a desire to return to the equal footing with the NSWRL and have their comp on par with anything the NSWRL or NRL arrange

I still think we should just go there by disbanding the NRL in the same manner we have done with the NYC

Option 2 is correct!

 

[siv]

Option 2 is correct!

And how do you get past the QRL veto vote

 

[Stallion]

And how do you get past the QRL veto vote

Where their is a will their is a way. If the administrators are fair dinkum and their to see the code prosper and grow it will happen. Otherwise why bother? !

 

[flippikat]

I think it can, you think it can, but the NRL does not agree, and they are the one making the decisions. IF the game is to stay at 16 clubs it needs to find space to bring in new markets. Only way to do that is rationalisation of existing structure and best place to do that is in a city with nine teams. If the NRL has a long term plan to get to 20 clubs all well and good, but 8 years on, and with a confirmed 5 years more of no growth, I see no sign that it does and all the communication from the NRL is that it will not go beyond 16 clubs.

Are the NRL even aware that THEY are inadvertently stoking the fires of "anti-Sydney club" sentiment by steadfastly refusing to commit to expansion?

I haven't seen anything explicit from them saying that they WON'T go beyond 16 clubs, and that's expansion needs to be a zero-sum game. (Now that would REALLY stoke those flames).

However, the idea that "all current clubs need to stand on their own feet before we expand" - which appears to be the current thinking - is open to criticism.

The AFL have shown that expansion grow the overall league's revenue, which means increased grants to clubs, which helps the poorest most of all.

All that the current NRL's stance does is exacerbate the frustration at Sydney clubs ("it's because of an oversaturated market that they're not expanding. They'll NEVER get all clubs to stand on their own feet, because it's oversaturated. We need to rationalise that market")

I think we can manage 18 teams in the short term, and with work 20 (getting the depth for that should be the goal, investing in State leagues is key here). Yet to be convinced about more than 20, but hey - 4 expansion teams over the next 10 years can certainly get us a basic footprint that cranks up the revenue from where we are now.

 

[Stallion]

Are the NRL even aware that THEY are inadvertently stoking the fires of "anti-Sydney club" sentiment by steadfastly refusing to commit to expansion?

I haven't seen anything explicit from them saying that they WON'T go beyond 16 clubs, and that's expansion needs to be a zero-sum game. (Now that would REALLY stoke those flames).

However, the idea that "all current clubs need to stand on their own feet before we expand" - which appears to be the current thinking - is open to criticism.

The AFL have shown that expansion grow the overall league's revenue, which means increased grants to clubs, which helps the poorest most of all.

All that the current NRL's stance does is exacerbate the frustration at Sydney clubs ("it's because of an oversaturated market that they're not expanding. They'll NEVER get all clubs to stand on their own feet, because it's oversaturated. We need to rationalise that market")

I think we can manage 18 teams in the short term, and with work 20 (getting the depth for that should be the goal, investing in State leagues is key here). Yet to be convinced about more than 20, but hey - 4 expansion teams over the next 10 years can certainly get us a basic footprint that cranks up the revenue from where we are now.

You have introduced another compelling point about the AFL benefitting from expansion clubs and still maintaining their Melbourne based foundation clubs! About time someone noticed and brought this crucial fact into the discussion! The NRL are procrastinating and this does fuel frustration basically everywhere. Its wrong and its reckless. Well done!

 

[flippikat]

You have introduced another compelling point about the AFL benefitting from expansion clubs and still maintaining their Melbourne based foundation clubs! About time someone noticed and brought this crucial fact into the discussion! Well done!

The vision of the AFL couldn't be further from the NRL.

Putting aside the 1980s and 1990s, since the turn of the century the AFL have been quite clear they wanted a 2nd team in Sydney, and they worked through a number of options before they struck the right solution. Likewise with the Gold Coast. They were open that they wanted it, worked towards it, and made it happen.

By comparison, the non-commital attitude of the NRL is appalling, and if it wasn't for the TV pressure for an 8th game, they wouldn't have expanded at all.

 

[Stallion]

The vision of the AFL couldn't be further from the NRL.

Putting aside the 1980s and 1990s, since the turn of the century the AFL have been quite clear they wanted a 2nd team in Sydney, and they worked through a number of options before they struck the right solution. Likewise with the Gold Coast. They were open that they wanted it, worked towards it, and made it happen.

By comparison, the non-commital attitude of the NRL is appalling, and if it wasn't for the TV pressure for an 8th game, they wouldn't have expanded at all.

The NRL have amazingly innept administrators. It looks like they are sitting on their hands and looking for excuses for not genuinely adding much needed clubs to the competition.
Another aspect is that news of additional clubs creates positivity and greater markets with increased junior participation. So yes, these guys within the NRL are either deliberately holding the game back or are incompetent.

 

[Perth Red]

Example of the oversaturation of the past that made it difficult for clubs to survive, aggregate may be lower but club sustainability of remain8ng clubs is boosted by greater crowd avg’s. 20 club 1995 crowd avg for the comp approx 14k

Balmain 6254
Canterbury 11341
Cronulla 11901
Manly 14722
Norths 11514
Parramatta 8300
Penrith 8022
Souths 7709
St George 9074
Sydney Roosters 9188
Wests 8556

2017 on a 16 team comp avg 15k

Canterbury 14039
Cronulla 12953
Manly 13493
Parramatta 14346
Penrith 12922
Souths 10903
St George Illawarra 13334
Sydney Roosters 15387
Wests Tigers 13551


Clearly reducing Sydney clubs has led to larger fanbases for the remaining clubs.

 

[siv]

Example of the oversaturation of the past that made it difficult for clubs to survive, aggregate may be lower but club sustainability of remain8ng clubs is boosted by greater crowd avg’s. 20 club 1995 crowd avg for the comp approx 14k

Balmain 6254
Canterbury 11341
Cronulla 11901
Manly 14722
Norths 11514
Parramatta 8300
Penrith 8022
Souths 7709
St George 9074
Sydney Roosters 9188
Wests 8556

2017 on a 16 team comp avg 15k

Canterbury 14039
Cronulla 12953
Manly 13493
Parramatta 14346
Penrith 12922
Souths 10903
St George Illawarra 13334
Sydney Roosters 15387
Wests Tigers 13551


Clearly reducing Sydney clubs has led to larger fanbases for the remaining clubs.

Clearly your wrong

Memberships and better stadiums and closer tesults have brought in the crowds

One thing that did happen were fans in Sydney didnt want to go watch out of town teams

While regional fans enjoyed seeing the RL brands from Sydney

It was not the case in reverse

 

[Stallion]

Example of the oversaturation of the past that made it difficult for clubs to survive, aggregate may be lower but club sustainability of remain8ng clubs is boosted by greater crowd avg’s. 20 club 1995 crowd avg for the comp approx 14k

Balmain 6254
Canterbury 11341
Cronulla 11901
Manly 14722
Norths 11514
Parramatta 8300
Penrith 8022
Souths 7709
St George 9074
Sydney Roosters 9188
Wests 8556

2017 on a 16 team comp avg 15k

Canterbury 14039
Cronulla 12953
Manly 13493
Parramatta 14346
Penrith 12922
Souths 10903
St George Illawarra 13334
Sydney Roosters 15387
Wests Tigers 13551


Clearly reducing Sydney clubs has led to larger fanbases for the remaining clubs.

Lol. With a reduced total attendance overall! That's not progress. For example count St George on its own along with Illawarra on its own and see if the total aggregate is greater. When you combine a club it looks to the lazy eye bigger 'average attendance' however combining two clubs to a figure of one is misleading and a 'smiling assassin way' of saying "Everything is fine but in reality the actual/ real interest in the code has decreased. " Hard and real numbers is whats required not a combining of clubs then ignoring that two clubs were in place drawing bigger total crowds in past times! Meanwhile other codes are waiting to further encroach on the virtual 'abandonment ' of highly and widely regarded and familiar top flight clubs in Sydney and nearby cities. The AFL sheepishly know that imploding their code in their top flight competition is lunacy but they wont let the dumb idea prevail in their comp. They will however happily let rival codes (NRL)do so. What do I call PR? : The "used car salesman or "Mr Implosion" ?Take your pick. You "combine" well for either label.

 

[flippikat]

The NRL have amazingly innept administrators. It looks like they are sitting on their hands and looking for excuses for not genuinely adding much needed clubs to the competition.

I'd call it recklessly incompetent - they are effectively driving a wedge between Sydney and interstate fans.