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If the Western Force get cut

papabear

Juniors
Messages
973
The NRL should immediately work with the lesser supported Sydney Clubs to relocate on of them to perth immediately to commence 2018.

There will be a massive void in:-
news papers - sports reports
rugby interest league / union
people from eastern states going to watch?

Blind freddy knows there is too many nrl teams in sydney.

IMO - the following teams appear to have the greatest local support and therefore should stay:-
- Parramatta
- Souths
- Canterbury
- St George

After that the support is all relatively dependent on success, but imo in order from most popular to least.

- Wests Tigers - big support in inner west and decent following outwest, though its name matches well with a move.
- Penrith - well support in local community and well entrenched there.
- Easts - name matches terribly with a move, but imo has the least local support, least local juniors, but lots of pull with channel nine. This would probably be my choice - Perth Roosters
- sharks - strong support in a small enclave of sydney, a little bit of support elsewhere, but really would be more way more succesful in perth.
- manly - This would be my choice had norths still been in the comp, but to be fair the nrl needs manly to pull its finger out and work something out with the bears so it services more of northern sydney and not just its tiny little area and tiny fan base it currently services.

IMO the NRL should first say, look no more loans from the NRL, if you go broke your gone, and we are shipping ur license and whatever west. Then there is the option go west on your own accord get $10M and all away sydney games will be held at your old home ground for the next 3 years and then re-evaluate.

Then if noone else goes you look at the following and send the team with the least local support west.

I am sure everyone else has some thoughts!!
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,402
Based on support and membership, one would send the Titans west.
There are virtually zero juniors in Nth Sydney,so the Bears should go West using that name instead of the Pirates.

Blind Freddy also knows all about the repercussions of cutting and joint venturing teams.Union,soccer and fumble ball say thanks a lot, we gain more support with no effort.
Check their crowds pre and post SL.

The Sharks apparently more successful in Perth .A $400-$500m development and resultant income from retail and apartment sale profits, for the initial sole purpose of underpinning the financial future of the football club, they would somehow be better off in Perth,where the Force to use a pun is spent.
And if the Pirates get intro financial difficulties ,should we punt them?

It's very easy to put pins on maps, it's the long term viability that counts.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,411
The best thing the NRl could do if the Force are cut is massively increase funding to the NRLWA and get the best under Union 18's and under 16's into the Pirates development systems and encourage take over of grass roots RU clubs or at least joint code clubs like has happened at Kwinana Wolves.
 

davi

Juniors
Messages
1,932
Based on support and membership, one would send the Titans west.
There are virtually zero juniors in Nth Sydney,so the Bears should go West using that name instead of the Pirates.

Blind Freddy also knows all about the repercussions of cutting and joint venturing teams.Union,soccer and fumble ball say thanks a lot, we gain more support with no effort.
Check their crowds pre and post SL.

The Sharks apparently more successful in Perth .A $400-$500m development and resultant income from retail and apartment sale profits, for the initial sole purpose of underpinning the financial future of the football club, they would somehow be better off in Perth,where the Force to use a pun is spent.
And if the Pirates get intro financial difficulties ,should we punt them?

It's very easy to put pins on maps, it's the long term viability that counts.

Right move a Gold Coast Teams west when we already have over-crowded amount of Sydney teams. I've read an article where Sharks and Tigers have been thrown up as relocation targets. But the Titans are not anywhere been close to the mark with the exception of the drivel thats been written about the Bears taking over.

For the record I would prefer Perth just get their own team. Forcing them get another team and they have to keep their logo and possibly colours is not really fair for an expansion team considering they want to get their own name and colours based on geography, history, and market research.

Perth will be so hard in terms of recruitment of players in my opinion. If a players in Sydney gets cut from their team, all they have to do is drive to the next suburb to find a team. Yes Townsville and Melbourne may have the same problem, but Perth is so further away in travel for the East coast talent of QLD and NSW that it's still a big hurdle.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,723
Or we could not relocate a Sydney club and instead simply revoke their licence and give the licence to a new Perth based club.

That way we aren't force feeding the people of Perth an old brand that they aren't interested in, to appease the old supporters in Sydney who aren't going to follow the team anyway because it's relocated and they don't consider it their team anymore.

This way the (insert Sydney club here) fans can still follow their team in the lower leagues if they so choose, the people of Perth/wherever get their own team who represents them, and the NRL comes out looking relatively rosy with a team in a new market after they have strip searched and audited the (insert Sydney club here) and dug up all the dirt that everybody already knew about the club and brought it to the surface all at once and used it as an excuse to revoke their NRL licence after an 'anonymous tip off'.

Win - win - win, the NRL gets a new TV market to sell to broadcasters, Sydney is rationalised a little bit making life easier on the clubs left in Sydney, and the sport gets a chance to grow to a new region in Australia.

Only people that are angry are the supporters of the old club, but it doesn't matter what you do they're gonna be pissed off so you may as well get the best result possible if you are gonna piss them off.
 

Diesel

Coach
Messages
19,918
Can you imagine the meltdown for any one in the media if they touched a Sydney club... Mr Sydney-centric Gould comes to mind
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,411
If they had any intention to do so the nrl could have easily let one of them fall over by now. They've bailed out Wests and dragons. Sydney is over crowded and will remain so, some of those clubs are going to go through tough times and struggle, too many mouths to feed in a city that isn't mad for nrl Like Melbourne is for afl. It will hold back expansion sadly as taipan says you have to expand from a position of strength and we have a shed load of clubs that live hand to mouth and dont think throwing money at them like confetti is going to resolve the underlying problems.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,270
Or we could not relocate a Sydney club and instead simply revoke their licence and give the licence to a new Perth based club.

That way we aren't force feeding the people of Perth an old brand that they aren't interested in, to appease the old supporters in Sydney who aren't going to follow the team anyway because it's relocated and they don't consider it their team anymore.

This way the (insert Sydney club here) fans can still follow their team in the lower leagues if they so choose, the people of Perth/wherever get their own team who represents them, and the NRL comes out looking relatively rosy with a team in a new market after they have strip searched and audited the (insert Sydney club here) and dug up all the dirt that everybody already knew about the club and brought it to the surface all at once and used it as an excuse to revoke their NRL licence after an 'anonymous tip off'.

Win - win - win, the NRL gets a new TV market to sell to broadcasters, Sydney is rationalised a little bit making life easier on the clubs left in Sydney, and the sport gets a chance to grow to a new region in Australia.

Only people that are angry are the supporters of the old club, but it doesn't matter what you do they're gonna be pissed off so you may as well get the best result possible if you are gonna piss them off.

See Norrth Sydney Bears fans...

I mean the 100 that choose to watch them run around the lower grade each week..

Most of the rest went to Union and AFL...

It's so simple right to kill off another team? Makes you wonder why they haven't done it again already...

Win-win-win... The only ones that can't see it are those stupid NRL admin I suppose...

Like our WA mate has said, they could have let Sydney teams die but have chosen not too... They are either idiots or think that the benefits of keeping them outweigh the pain and perhaps opportunities for other codes of letting them go...

At least for now anyway...
 
Last edited:

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,723
See Norrth Sydney Bears fans...

I mean the 100 that choose to watch them run around the lower grade each week..

Most of the rest went to Union and AFL...

It's so simple right to kill off another team? Makes you wonder why they haven't done it again already...

Win-win-win... The only ones that can't see it are those stupid NRL admin I suppose...

Like our WA mate has said, they could have let Sydney teams die but have chosen not too... They are either idiots or think that the benefits of keeping them outweigh the pain and perhaps opportunities for other codes of letting them go...

At least for now anyway...

See Glebe and Annandale, if they hadn't been killed there wouldn't have been room in the competition at the time for St. George and Canterbury, both clubs that were significantly larger then the other two ever could have been and directly spread the game to more people then the others ever could have as well.
The removal of Glebe also allowed space for Balmain to grow larger and stronger then was possible when they were competing with Glebe, I'm sure that other clubs were positively effected by the removal of Annandale and Glebe as well.

Sure there'll be short term pain, but in the long term it's in our best interest to remove some clubs in Sydney, and most of that pain is generational as not only Glebe and Annandale show, but as Newtown and yes even the Bears show.

For example, removing the Roosters would free up space for the Rabbitohs to grow into over time, making the Rabbits a stronger club with a stronger and larger base, while at the same time freeing up space in the competition for a new area to enter a team allowing the game a chance to grow as well.
It's like cutting the dead wight in the roster to free up room in the salary cap to bring in new players, no body at the Raiders wanted to see Campo go the way he did, but it had to happen so that the Raiders could build a stronger team.
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,270
So why haven't the NRL cut a Sydney team yet or allowed one to fall over?

You think it makes so much sense but they haven't done it... Why?
 

T to the T

Juniors
Messages
460
The idiots advocating moving an existing team. Have you not learnt anything in the last 20 years? :rolleyes:

Culling/moving clubs does more harm than good, just look at the North Shore for example.

If you left them (North Sydney) in and they died naturally, people wouldn't take it as hard, you forcibly kick them out and people do. Fans of broke teams wouldn't have turned away from the game like fans of shafted teams did, hence RU's strength and the growth of AFL in Sydney.

It is somewhat like "a lover spurned" - the response of fan who has lost their club is at first all wrath and vindictiveness. In changing codes they are looking for a fresh start. To stay with RL they are constantly lamenting their lost club. They are deliberately turning their back on the sport that has betrayed their loyalty.

Perth & Brisbane 2 for 2020
CC Bears & Wellington for 2022
 

BuffaloRules

Coach
Messages
14,270
They haven't learnt the lessons of 20 years ago because they either weren't born yet or were living in Huddersfield at the time....
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,411
Did they really switch to Union? Did they really start following the Swans even though the Swans are not in their neighbourhood and representing them? Can you really argue that the Bears in the NRL would be more valuable than the Storm are? Even in AFL land the overcrowding in Melbourne is causing significant financial problems for clubs and they get 30-70k crowds. Its unsustainable in the modern era to have 9 clubs in one city and expect them to flourish and grow, that's not opinion its a fact, take a look at how they are performing.

its sucks to lose your club or see it relocated, I know I've watched mine be relegated, go into administration and rise from the ashes only to end up relegated again but sometimes the greater good for the game has to come first.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,402
See Glebe and Annandale, if they hadn't been killed there wouldn't have been room in the competition at the time for St. George and Canterbury, both clubs that were significantly larger then the other two ever could have been and directly spread the game to more people then the others ever could have as well.
The removal of Glebe also allowed space for Balmain to grow larger and stronger then was possible when they were competing with Glebe, I'm sure that other clubs were positively effected by the removal of Annandale and Glebe as well.

Sure there'll be short term pain, but in the long term it's in our best interest to remove some clubs in Sydney, and most of that pain is generational as not only Glebe and Annandale show, but as Newtown and yes even the Bears show.

For example, removing the Roosters would free up space for the Rabbitohs to grow into over time, making the Rabbits a stronger club with a stronger and larger base, while at the same time freeing up space in the competition for a new area to enter a team allowing the game a chance to grow as well.
It's like cutting the dead wight in the roster to free up room in the salary cap to bring in new players, no body at the Raiders wanted to see Campo go the way he did, but it had to happen so that the Raiders could build a stronger team.

Please mate Glebe and Annandale,let's bring modern history into the equation.They had little pro competition from other codes then if any.
Sydney then was far more compact, did not have the traffic issues that exist now, did not have a cashed up AFL pouring money into Sydney nor a strong Wanderer's club.Much larger numbers of kids playing rl.

The removal of North Sydney did zilch, to grow any other Sydney club including the Tigers.

Of course there is short term pain for the NRL club involved and long term gain for the other codes involved.The Swans never had it so good when we flicked a club and joined others.If there had been no SL war Swans would be struggling.AFL fans are different to NRL fans ,they still follow their club,rl fans are too fickle.

Also I understand a fair swag of Rabbitoh's fans reside outside the Eastern Suburbs now, due to rising housing costs.

I've witnessed the ups and downs of clubs here and interstate .The Raiders were kings when Mal was in his prime, then the Brumbies came along and ate into their support.Only now with the Brumbies failing and the Raiders doing well are their crowds rocking.RL crowds are fickle, no matter where the code is played.

If the Raiders have say 5 bad years and crowds drop dramatically ,then what.Find another expansion area?
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,402
Right move a Gold Coast Teams west when we already have over-crowded amount of Sydney teams. I've read an article where Sharks and Tigers have been thrown up as relocation targets. But the Titans are not anywhere been close to the mark with the exception of the drivel thats been written about the Bears taking over.

For the record I would prefer Perth just get their own team. Forcing them get another team and they have to keep their logo and possibly colours is not really fair for an expansion team considering they want to get their own name and colours based on geography, history, and market research.

Perth will be so hard in terms of recruitment of players in my opinion. If a players in Sydney gets cut from their team, all they have to do is drive to the next suburb to find a team. Yes Townsville and Melbourne may have the same problem, but Perth is so further away in travel for the East coast talent of QLD and NSW that it's still a big hurdle.

I was being sarcastic with the Titans mate.In fact it is well known I want no club to be relocated or flicked.I want expansion,b but expansion to be decided when the liabilities are removed from the NRL finances Meaning selling off the Tits and Knights).I also want the grassroots hasbving far more funding.

If the NRL has money left over to burn ,they can bring in Perth ,Brisbane,Warnambool,Darwin.
I just had enough of the past crap thrown up by the SL war.I want stability in the code.It's forever shooting itself in the foot.
 

Jetka100

Juniors
Messages
74
I think sometimes you need to spend a bit of money to make money, especially when you are going for a growth strategy. A lot of successful companies use properly considered debt arrangements to grow themselves, not just wait around for a pool of money to be sitting in a bank account. Perth and Brisbane 2 will actually grow the game of rugby league in this country. I'm afraid, North Sydney Bears will remain one of those teams we view through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia, but there would be negligible benefit in trying to resurrect them. It would be like the AFL trying to bring back Fitzroy. They should be concentrating on trying to build themselves up as a second tier team.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,723
So why haven't the NRL cut a Sydney team yet or allowed one to fall over?

You think it makes so much sense but they haven't done it... Why?

They haven't done it for two reasons-
1. The majority of the people running the game (naturally) have prior experience in the game and aren't truly independent (no body is truly independent), each of these people hold biases for the clubs (and states, countries, etc) they supported/played at/worked for and don't want to see them go through hard times because we have a culture in our sport (and in Australian sport in general) of loving the club before the sport and not the other way around.

2. The sport at the NRL level is effectively ruled by the media, because the NRL/ARLC are so scared of negative publicity that they let the media dictate to them how to run their business, strangely they haven't learnt that any publicity is good publicity.

The idiots advocating moving an existing team. Have you not learnt anything in the last 20 years? :rolleyes:

The situation 20 years ago isn't comparable to now, there were so many added variables after the SL war that simply aren't an issue anymore.

If you're looking for closer comparisons, then the only ones you'll find in our game are Glebe, Annandale, Newtown, and arguably Uni.

Culling/moving clubs does more harm than good, just look at the North Shore for example.

If you left them (North Sydney) in and they died naturally, people wouldn't take it as hard, you forcibly kick them out and people do. Fans of broke teams wouldn't have turned away from the game like fans of shafted teams did, hence RU's strength and the growth of AFL in Sydney.

It is somewhat like "a lover spurned" - the response of fan who has lost their club is at first all wrath and vindictiveness. In changing codes they are looking for a fresh start. To stay with RL they are constantly lamenting their lost club. They are deliberately turning their back on the sport that has betrayed their loyalty.

All these problems are generational, they die with the people who held them. They can't be handed down to ones children because the children simply don't hold the same emotional attachment to the old clubs as their parents did because they never interacted with the old clubs.

Please mate Glebe and Annandale,let's bring modern history into the equation.They had little pro competition from other codes then if any.
Sydney then was far more compact, did not have the traffic issues that exist now, did not have a cashed up AFL pouring money into Sydney nor a strong Wanderer's club.Much larger numbers of kids playing rl.

Firstly it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that RL had little to no competition in Sydney back then, they did, RU, Soccer, Boxing, horses, greyhounds, cricket, golf, etc, etc, were all fighting for participation, spectators, sponsors, etc, sure it was on a much, much smaller scale back then, but that is true of all sports in all countries back in those days because the professional sports industry was still developing back then.

Secondly, fine if you don't like Glebe and Annandale (despite them being the most analogous situations) then use Newtown as an example, if you refuse Newtown as an example then we have to start looking at other codes and countries for analogous events(the most recent examples coming from the NFL), but they aren't bad examples, they just have variables that wont apply as much to us as they do/did to them.

The removal of North Sydney did zilch, to grow any other Sydney club including the Tigers.

That is both the NRL's fault for not having a plan for the region after the Bears left (another thing that was largely impacted by the SL war that shouldn't be an issue anymore) and the Bears themselves fault who have consistently blocked both Manly and Easts attempts to grow into the region, especially when it comes to juniors.

However, the Rabbitohs have seen growth in their juniors through an agreement with the Bears, this growth could have been exponentially bigger if the middle man that is the bears were taken out of the equation, but what you gonna do.

Of course there is short term pain for the NRL club involved and long term gain for the other codes involved.The Swans never had it so good when we flicked a club and joined others.If there had been no SL war Swans would be struggling.AFL fans are different to NRL fans ,they still follow their club,rl fans are too fickle.

Nobodies ever shown substantive evidence of this that I can find!

They always point to the growth of the Swans (and to a lesser extent the Tahs) after the SL war as evidence, but they fail to show that the Swans had been slowly growing in Sydney since at least the late 80's (and that the Tahs popularity has trended with RUs' in this country, up when we were given the WC and down after the WC).

Not once has somebody shown a mass exodus of RL fans to AFL or Union in response to losing their club, mass exodus from the NRL sure, but not a net growth for the AFL or Union as a direct result of a club getting cut.

Also I understand a fair swag of Rabbitoh's fans reside outside the Eastern Suburbs now, due to rising housing costs.

Not sure what that's got to do with anything.

I've witnessed the ups and downs of clubs here and interstate .The Raiders were kings when Mal was in his prime, then the Brumbies came along and ate into their support.Only now with the Brumbies failing and the Raiders doing well are their crowds rocking.RL crowds are fickle, no matter where the code is played.

Lol, you really shouldn't talk about the sporting culture in the ACT, cause you've got no clue.

The Brumbies didn't eat into the Raiders market, sure their is cross over in the fan base (quite significant cross over), but that cross over crosses over to Cricket, Soccer, etc, as well, hell a lot of the guys I know used to go the Cannons, Raiders, and Brumbies games all on the same weekend on the odd occasion that they were all on the same weekend and didn't clash (personally I was never into the Basketball), quite a few of them (including myself) still go to other sports whether it be the Cavalry, Braves, Capitols, United, or whatever.

What ate into the Raiders support was 20 year of mediocrity without a board that wanted to make any changes to try and make the club more successful, and multiple different administrators and other people at the club that were openly hostile fans.

Until David Furner was sacked and John Mcintyre stood down the club had been effectively run as a job mill and money making scheme for one family in Queanbeyan at the expense of competitiveness of the club on the field, they were happy for the club to finish middle of the table every year so long as they were able to fund local rugby league and take the left over money for themselves, but the fans slowly got sick of the self interest running the club and jumped off over time. There's a reason that Raiders fans used to call the club the Furner family farm!
Now that it's not a problem they're coming back, a little success is helping as well.

The Brumbies recent problems have been loosely related to the Raiders becoming more successful, as they got used to being the hottest ticket in town but that's not really the case anymore, but their problems are more a result of a mixture of bad governance and the fans not being happy with them becoming so closely connected to Tuggeranong Vikings at the expense of the rest of the local clubs. But we won't go too deep into the Brumbies woes here.

If the Raiders have say 5 bad years and crowds drop dramatically ,then what.Find another expansion area?

Crowds alone should never be enough to regulate/relocate a team, however I think being more to the point you're question is really would I be happy with the Raiders being dropped from the NRL, and the answer is yes and no, it depends on the situation in which they were dropped.
I can see situations in the future where it could theoretically be in the best interests of the game for the Raiders not to be in the top league, however so long as Sydney is over saturated it'd make no sense whatsoever to remove a club like the Raiders.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,402
I'm not going into detail to respond to you on all your comments, because it's old ground what happened 70 plus years ago compared to today ,and thus banging my head against a brick wall.
You can live in a Canberra bubble ,and throw pins at maps.Anyone can do that.I can do likewise from Sydney.

The reality is,Sydney has already been screwed by rationalisation,and lost fan support as a result.To suggest otherwise exhibits ignorance.Wests,Tigers,Dragons and Illawarra.individually got more fans to their games than collectively as joint ventures.North Sydney fans are they all following other clubs.my experience suggests no.
The AFL do not want anymore relocations.

The Swans have benefitted ,that is not a guess and more so when Souths were flicked.The Tahs benefitted .
And I have no doubt should the Force be flicked the Pirates would benefit.
And NRL fans(not just Sydney) are fickle,check Raider's crowds when they were losing and when they are winning.

I watched St George many years ago prior to any thought of SL,and their crowds were far better at Jubilee than today.And the Steelers had decent crowds at times.

I do know this rl fans are divided into those who will watch the game and not tied to a club and rarely attend, those that are tied to a club and would still follow the game, and those tied to a club who would toss it in should they lose that club.The latter are not an inconsequential number.
If a club gets into deep financial problems I would accept relocation, but only on that basis.
 

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