If the Western Force get cut

[Perth Red]

Back to the actual thread title the western force have put their community ownership model to the test today. Fans can buy $1000 shares in the Force with a goal of raising $11million. If it fails the Arun might not need to make a decision.

https://www.westernforce.com.au/article/own-force-shares-available-now

Be interesting to see it is successful, and if it is if other clubs in other codes follow suit.

 

[Perth Red]

The reality is,Sydney has already been screwed by rationalisation,and lost fan support as a result.To suggest otherwise exhibits ignorance.Wests,Tigers,Dragons and Illawarra.individually got more fans to their games than collectively as joint ventures.North Sydney fans are they all following other clubs.my experience suggests no.
The AFL do not want anymore relocations.

.

More people watch nrl in sydeny on tv and sydney clubs have increased crowd avg from 9,688 before club cuts and mergers to 13,838 last year. Whilst we may have lost some overall the fact the remaining clubs have bigger fanbases has got to be good for their chances of sustainability?

Afl tried desperately to get a failing Melbourne club to relocate to Gold Coast so not true they can't see their own similar issues in Melbourne.

 

[The Great Dane]

I'm not going into detail to respond to you on all your comments, because it's old ground what happened 70 plus years ago compared to today ,and thus banging my head against a brick wall.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

You can live in a Canberra bubble ,and throw pins at maps.Anyone can do that.I can do likewise from Sydney.

F##king what, lol, a Canberra bubble.

I'm not the one who lives in a city with a massive media base who are willing to parrot back all my thoughts to me through idiots like Rothfield, Kent, Crawley, Gould, Warren, etc, etc, etc.

And if wanting a sensible spread of our product across the country to coincide with the larger markets (whether they be for fans, sponsors, or whatever) is wanting "pins in a map", then so be it!
At least I want the game to grow as big as possible and for as many people as possible to be exposed to it, and I'm not satisfied with your little Sydney wankfest.

The reality is,Sydney has already been screwed by rationalisation,and lost fan support as a result.To suggest otherwise exhibits ignorance.

No ones suggesting that RL doesn't lose fans when clubs are cut.

Wests,Tigers,Dragons and Illawarra.individually got more fans to their games than collectively as joint ventures.

TV ratings, memberships, merch sales, etc, etc, are all much higher now then they were back before the mergers.

And who's suggesting more mergers? I'm not, I was even against them back in the day!
I don't think anybody seriously is.

North Sydney fans are they all following other clubs.my experience suggests no.

I'm an ex Bears fan and I'm following other clubs.

Experiences are subjective, they prove nothing.

The AFL do not want anymore relocations.

That's BS.

They have tried to get clubs to move to Tasmania (Western Bulldogs and the North Melbourne), Canberra (Melbourne Demons, North Melbourne, and I think the Dogs as well at one point), the GC before they had the Suns (Demons), and were pressuring St. Kilda to move full time to Wellington at one point.

What they are scared of doing is at the moment is forcing relocation.

The Swans have benefitted ,that is not a guess and more so when Souths were flicked.The Tahs benefitted .

Prove it!

Seriously, I've been trying to get someone to show me some sort of substantial evidence to support claims like this for years.

And I have no doubt should the Force be flicked the Pirates would benefit.

I'm not so sure.

And NRL fans(not just Sydney) are fickle,check Raider's crowds when they were losing and when they are winning.

I watched St George many years ago prior to any thought of SL,and their crowds were far better at Jubilee than today.And the Steelers had decent crowds at times.

I don't see what this has to do with the argument at hand.

I do know this rl fans are divided into those who will watch the game and not tied to a club and rarely attend, those that are tied to a club and would still follow the game, and those tied to a club who would toss it in should they lose that club.The latter are not an inconsequential number.

Yes, but this is a generational problem!!!

Yes when you remove a club from an area you see a drop in numbers across the board, but those numbers pick back up with the generational change because the the children and the new people in the area don't know who the old club was let alone have any feelings for them.

If this wasn't the case then Glebe, Annandale, and Newtown would be wastelands for RL, South Melbourne and the inner west of Melbourne would be wastelands for Aussie rules, all of America would be a wasteland for American football and basketball with all the chopping and changing that they do, etc, etc, and that's simply not the case.

If a club gets into deep financial problems I would accept relocation, but only on that basis.

I'm not for relocation either, but removing a Broncos, Melbourne, Manly, Warriors, etc, would be a thing of suicidal stupidity even if they were flat broke.

It's not as simple as crowds and finances, you have to take so many more things into account!

 

[taipan]

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.



F##king what, lol, a Canberra bubble.

I'm not the one who lives in a city with a massive media base who are willing to parrot back all my thoughts to me through idiots like Rothfield, Kent, Crawley, Gould, Warren, etc, etc, etc.

And if wanting a sensible spread of our product across the country to coincide with the larger markets (whether they be for fans, sponsors, or whatever) is wanting "pins in a map", then so be it!
At least I want the game to grow as big as possible and for as many people as possible to be exposed to it, and I'm not satisfied with your little Sydney wankfest.



No ones suggesting that RL doesn't lose fans when clubs are cut.



TV ratings, memberships, merch sales, etc, etc, are all much higher now then they were back before the mergers.

And who's suggesting more mergers? I'm not, I was even against them back in the day!
I don't think anybody seriously is.



I'm an ex Bears fan and I'm following other clubs.

Experiences are subjective, they prove nothing.



That's BS.

They have tried to get clubs to move to Tasmania (Western Bulldogs and the North Melbourne), Canberra (Melbourne Demons, North Melbourne, and I think the Dogs as well at one point), the GC before they had the Suns (Demons), and were pressuring St. Kilda to move full time to Wellington at one point.




What they are scared of doing is at the moment is forcing relocation.



Prove it!

Seriously, I've been trying to get someone to show me some sort of substantial evidence to support claims like this for years.



I'm not so sure.



I don't see what this has to do with the argument at hand.







Yes, but this is a generational problem!!!

Yes when you remove a club from an area you see a drop in numbers across the board, but those numbers pick back up with the generational change because the the children and the new people in the area don't know who the old club was let alone have any feelings for them.

If this wasn't the case then Glebe, Annandale, and Newtown would be wastelands for RL, South Melbourne and the inner west of Melbourne would be wastelands for Aussie rules, all of America would be a wasteland for American football and basketball with all the chopping and changing that they do, etc, etc, and that's simply not the case.



I'm not for relocation either, but removing a Broncos, Melbourne, Manly, Warriors, etc, would be a thing of suicidal stupidity even if they were flat broke.




It's not as simple as crowds and finances, you have to take so many more things into account!

Yes the SL past, if one hasn't learnt from that they are living in la la land.Repeat this and the code is stuffed.
The rest of your guff offers nothing new just one version.
I've been following rl since unlimited tackle the 4 tackle etc, seen first hand the effects on clubs with mergers and flicks.
Small samples though they may be ,all you have to do is open your peepers and see the crowd drops, the juniors fade away.
That comment is crapola "when you remove a club" ,North Sydney is almost a bleeding wasteland>The youngsters there are playing soccer,AFL and to a lesser and diminishing extent union.As a former Bear's fan,I find your comment strange.

"Not as simple as crowds and finances'Noit the view off the NRL of late.Financial viability of clubs is the priority.

 

[taipan]

More people watch nrl in sydeny on tv and sydney clubs have increased crowd avg from 9,688 before club cuts and mergers to 13,838 last year. Whilst we may have lost some overall the fact the remaining clubs have bigger fanbases has got to be good for their chances of sustainability?

Afl tried desperately to get a failing Melbourne club to relocate to Gold Coast so not true they can't see their own similar issues in Melbourne.

You're working on an overall club average basis,I'm working club to club basis.Old type to new.The major clubs Eels,and Souths and when the dogs were going well boosted the averages.

Yes" the remaining Sydney clubs" ,so why the flipping heck, move any of them ,as suggested by you at times.


The AFL tried merging also and the fans knocked that on the head,they have been open about no more relocations.Don't try to sugar coat it, it's not going to happen with them.Why? Because the AFL will be ensuring all their clubs are financial.Funny that, exactly what the NRL is aiming for.

I repeat and you won't answer it, why do you continually ignore the losses of the other codes, and wasted monies ? It's not a NRL exclusive.

 

[The Great Dane]

Yes the SL past, if one hasn't learnt from that they are living in la la land.Repeat this and the code is stuffed.

Then it's a bloody good thing that nobody is suggesting that a rival competition should be created by a rich media company looking to use RL as a draw card for their new paid platform!

Your just playing dumb if you can't see the enormous differences between the circumstances during and after the SL war and now.
Rationalising Sydney now while the competition is stable and relatively well off and the peace deals after the SL war simply aren't comparable.

The rest of your guff offers nothing new just one version.
I've been following rl since unlimited tackle the 4 tackle etc, seen first hand the effects on clubs with mergers and flicks.

I've been watching since those times to.

And the effects on the clubs that are "flicked" aren't what we should be worried about, it should be on the long term effects on the sport as a whole. No club should be bigger then the game, unfortunately at the moment 10 are being treated as if they are.

Small samples though they may be ,all you have to do is open your peepers and see the crowd drops, the juniors fade away.

A sample of 1 is a useless sample size.

Crowd drops have been cause largely because of the fact that the NRL has been run by two media companies for the last 20 years, media companies that have actively made the sport more accessible for viewers watching from home then attending the games.

Massive juniors drops have occurred in all full contact sports across the western world since the mid 90's (except soccer, which most wouldn't consider full contact anyway, but technically they are, and AFL, but as I'm sure you know they have been using things like Auskick to skew their numbers for years), this is largely due to the helicopter parent phenomenon and more recently because of new information about concussions coming to light.

So yeah I've seen the crowd and juniors drop, don't see what those things on a macro scale has to do with rationalisation.

That comment is crapola "when you remove a club"

What comment is strange?

,North Sydney is almost a bleeding wasteland>The youngsters there are playing soccer,AFL and to a lesser and diminishing extent union.As a former Bear's fan,I find your comment strange.

10-15 years ago it was a wasteland, but slowly it is recovering as the generational change comes through!
Progress would be faster if it wasn't for obstructionism from the Bears, and if the NRL had a plan for the region once the Bears fell over, but that's just another lesson to be learned now.

"Not as simple as crowds and finances'Noit the view off the NRL of late.Financial viability of clubs is the priority.

I mean't that deciding whether a club should be regulated or not shouldn't come down to just crowds and finances.

 

[The Great Dane]

Yes" the remaining Sydney clubs" ,so why the flipping heck, move any of them ,as suggested by you at times.

Because the potential of the small Sydney clubs will never be as big as the potential of clubs based in big cities without as much competition from other NRL clubs!

A small Sydney club at their best has 10-20 thousand active supporters, adds no money to the broadcasting rights that we wouldn't already get because of the other Sydney clubs, add no direct access to local sponsors that we wouldn't already get from the other Sydney club, doesn't increase the exposure of the sport (to new fans or for sponsors) in anyway that we wouldn't already get from the other Sydney clubs, etc, etc.

Even at their conceivable worst the Broncos and Storm add more to the NRL and RL pie (so to speak) then a small Sydney club ever could, and that would be true for Perth, Adelaide, etc, etc.

 

[Perth Red]

You're working on an overall club average basis,I'm working club to club basis.Old type to new.The major clubs Eels,and Souths and when the dogs were going well boosted the averages.

Yes" the remaining Sydney clubs" ,so why the flipping heck, move any of them ,as suggested by you at times.


The AFL tried merging also and the fans knocked that on the head,they have been open about no more relocations.Don't try to sugar coat it, it's not going to happen with them.Why? Because the AFL will be ensuring all their clubs are financial.Funny that, exactly what the NRL is aiming for.

I repeat and you won't answer it, why do you continually ignore the losses of the other codes, and wasted monies ? It's not a NRL exclusive.

You prove the point, before reduction clubs avg sub 10k, after mergers etc the surviving clubs over 13k. That makes it more likely the remaining clubs will be sustainable with a bigger crowd avg. maybe if they cut three more that avg will get up to 16-17k a club and we will see even healthier clubs remaining whilst creating space for potentially stronger clubs in stand alone new cities or in Brisbane?

Afl would love to have been able to shift two Melbourne clubs and eventually may cut off the lifeline that's keeping them afloat. Like the nrl they are trying to give them every chance to get themselves sorted out but like the nrl it will only last so long in all likelihood.

 

[T to the T]

As posted in TFC

Sanzaar hopes to be in a position by Monday to announce three teams will be culled from Super Rugby.

More than a month after a meeting in London where Sanzaar partners agreed in principal to push ahead with New Zealand's preference for a 15-team competition, and still those teams facing the axe are no clearer about their respective futures.

High-powered meetings in South Africa took place this week but no official word about Super Rugby has emerged and it is understood final decisions have been delayed by widespread protests surrounding president Jacob Zuma.

But with broadcast and attendances dwindling, the Rand being further downgraded and financial pressures biting the six franchises there, the South African Rugby Union is expected to cut two teams, likely to be the Southern Kings and Cheetahs.

Confirmation of SARU's direction still holds the key.

The Australian Rugby Union is, meanwhile, expected to meet this weekend and the Western Force remain the most vulnerable.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/91339312/super-rugby-future-should-be-clear-by-monday

Bye bye Force

 

[Perth Red]

Not so sure, they are owned by the aru, doubt they would have launched the shares program this week if they are to be cut next week?

 

[Marlins]

Not so sure, they are owned by the aru, doubt they would have launched the shares program this week if they are to be cut next week?

Last ditch effort?

 

[Marlins]

The Roosters should be relocated to Adelaide
Wests to Perth.
Less saturation in Sydney and the Nrl becomes National.

 

[Perth Red]

Last ditch effort?

Probably, if they don't raise the millions through this or the state govt pulls the sponsorship they are done anyway.

Be interesting to see their crowd today. Absolutely perfect weather, done loads of promotion, kids in free and get tshirt and clap sticks, call to the fans to rally for their survival. If they don't get around 15k then they really are in strife.

 

[T to the T]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...alian-teams-to-face-the-chop-from-super-rugby

Sanzaar finally confirm two South African teams and one Australian side to face the chop from Super Rugby

 

[Diesel]

Probably, if they don't raise the millions through this or the state govt pulls the sponsorship they are done anyway.

Be interesting to see their crowd today. Absolutely perfect weather, done loads of promotion, kids in free and get tshirt and clap sticks, call to the fans to rally for their survival. If they don't get around 15k then they really are in strife.

What did they get?

 

[taipan]

You prove the point, before reduction clubs avg sub 10k, after mergers etc the surviving clubs over 13k. That makes it more likely the remaining clubs will be sustainable with a bigger crowd avg. maybe if they cut three more that avg will get up to 16-17k a club and we will see even healthier clubs remaining whilst creating space for potentially stronger clubs in stand alone new cities or in Brisbane?

Afl would love to have been able to shift two Melbourne clubs and eventually may cut off the lifeline that's keeping them afloat. Like the nrl they are trying to give them every chance to get themselves sorted out but like the nrl it will only last so long in all likelihood.

That is plain wishful thinking,One only has to look at Dragons playing match of the day at the SCG as a stand alone .Those crowds p*ssed all over what they get now even as a joint venture.Bearing in mind our population has grown a hell of a lot since.
Matches between the Dragons and Manly at Brookvale would get more than 11,000 plus.
In any case two teams with a 9,000 averages going to have more fans interested than a joint venture one with a 12,000 average e.g. 2 teams 18,000 x say 20 rounds 360.000 through the gates.1 joint venture 12,000 x 20 =240,000.Where have the fans gone?
I realise 12,000 looks better than 9,000 for a ,match, but fans spend their money on merchandise, gate and grand finals.
I'd like to be proved wrong with crowds jumping to large figures for the west Tigers and St Geo/Illawarra.

AFL may well love to do it, but they won't relocate more Vic teams.They tried a merger which went belly up.They would like to move Nth Melbourne but they won't.They understand now the butthurt.

The only reason the Swans did well on relocation ,was the perfect timing (in the early 80s league needed to clean up the rough stuff in games0, the the SL war intervened later and they got a semi,evrything fell into place for them.
Huge sums are being spent on AFL expansion clubs now, and relocation clubs will face the same situation.And that code may not get the largesse the last TV deal got, on a later Tv deal.That may also apply to the NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

What did they get?

Just opened this week. No doubt the aru will watch it closely to see how much they raise before making a decision

 

[Perth Red]

That is plain wishful thinking,One only has to look at Dragons playing match of the day at the SCG as a stand alone .Those crowds p*ssed all over what they get now even as a joint venture.Bearing in mind our population has grown a hell of a lot since.
Matches between the Dragons and Manly at Brookvale would get more than 11,000 plus.
In any case two teams with a 9,000 averages going to have more fans interested than a joint venture one with a 12,000 average e.g. 2 teams 18,000 x say 20 rounds 360.000 through the gates.1 joint venture 12,000 x 20 =240,000.Where have the fans gone?
I realise 12,000 looks better than 9,000 for a ,match, but fans spend their money on merchandise, gate and grand finals.
I'd like to be proved wrong with crowds jumping to large figures for the west Tigers and St Geo/Illawarra.

AFL may well love to do it, but they won't relocate more Vic teams.They tried a merger which went belly up.They would like to move Nth Melbourne but they won't.They understand now the butthurt.

The only reason the Swans did well on relocation ,was the perfect timing (in the early 80s league needed to clean up the rough stuff in games0, the the SL war intervened later and they got a semi,evrything fell into place for them.
Huge sums are being spent on AFL expansion clubs now, and relocation clubs will face the same situation.And that code may not get the largesse the last TV deal got, on a later Tv deal.That may also apply to the NRL.

A club with a bigger fan base will have better Chance of being sustainable than two teams with smaller fanbases. The FACT is that Sydney teams today avg more each than Sydney teams pre merger/cuts.

 

[taipan]

A club with a bigger fan base will have better Chance of being sustainable than two teams with smaller fanbases. The FACT is that Sydney teams today avg more each than Sydney teams pre merger/cuts.

Funny prior to the Dragons becoming a joint venture club, they were sustainable as a single entry.they either played at Jubilee or the SCG had bigger crowds ,their League club was packed on game day, and they didn't have to borrow from the NRL to be wait for it:SUSTAINABLE.

The fact is on population growth basis ,your crowd example is full of holes.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

If Saints moved to Adelaide and drew 15,009, it'd be just as good as they are now. And Sydney saints fans could still be the most passionate whilst still watching them on TV.

Same goes for Roosters or Rabbitohs I'd say, but they both have White Knights signing the cheques.