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NZ v Poms in US

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I honestly feel ill reading this article

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...r/news-story/f66b004eeacf8812d840c8085a951004

The promoter behind the plan to play a mid-year Test in Denver has questioned why rival sports manage to fly athletes around the world yet NRL players are suddenly at greater risk of injury in the eyes of their clubs and the code’s medical authorities.

A proposal to play a Test match between England and New Zealand at Mile High Stadium — home of the NFL’s Denver Broncos — in June is in jeopardy amid concerns from clubs and the game’s governing body over the health and safety of players involved.

Jason Moore, president and chief executive of Moore Sports International, is becoming increasingly exasperated at suggestions the game he has pieced together is now at death’s door.

Moore insists he is yet to be informed of concerns emanating from the NRL and its clubs — it is understood a letter has been drafted and a meeting was held last night involving the governing body and affected clubs to detail their concerns.

The letter is expected to relay medical issues over the game and inform the relevant national bodies that the NRL will deny any request to release players. That could signal the death knell for the Test, Moore indicating it was unlikely to go ahead unless NRL players were made available.


It could ultimately lead to a showdown between the NRL, their clubs and the international body. Moore is hoping it won’t come to that, although he admitted he was disturbed by suggestions the players’ health was at risk if they played in the game.

“The problem with common sense is that it is not very common,” Moore said. “If that was true, then no major global sports competition would operate on the planet. The soccer guys travel in and out across multiple time zones and date changes.

“The naysayers will say that is not as tough as rugby league. They are running a fair amount of distance. You still have blood going in the lungs.

“The rugby union guys do it, golfers do it. There are athletes across multiple disciplines that do it. If you want to have an international sport, you need to get money from other countries. If other sports can do it, why can’t we. Are we really the toughest sport around?”

Asked whether the game would go ahead without NRL players, Moore — responsible for bringing the Los Angeles Dodgers and Arizona Diamondbacks to Sydney three years ago — said: “No. It is not a legitimate Test match then.

“That is not doing anyone any favours. Can a State of Origin go on without NRL players? It will come down to the players.

“The individual player will determine what they’re doing. This is years of planning. It is very, very strategic and well thought out and planned. I hate to point it out to people, but I moved two Major League Baseball teams halfway around the world.

“And the payroll of one of those teams is the entirety of rugby union and rugby league in Australia and New Zealand combined. (LA Dodgers pitcher) Clayton Kershaw is on $34 million a year and he seemed to go all right.

“If rugby league wants to take on rugby union as a global game they have to get serious.”
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
If I remember correctly, the entire Dodgers and Diamondbacks teams were killed when they came to Sydney. They weren't adapted correctly to our spiders and coupled with the deadly altitude sickness they got from their 30,000ft flight they were dead within the week.

Medical concerns what garbage. The only thing the clubs are concerned about is losing players for the weekend after. These are the same clubs that force players to play through injuries that all of a sudden 'need surgery' when the international season begins, and the same clubs that force players through 4 months of gruelling pre-season.
 

StadiumXIII

Juniors
Messages
176
NZ and England should just name their teams, fly them over and play the test FFS. Who cares what the clubs think? what's the worse they can do? sack the players for what is essentially spreading rugby league into new territory, increasing awareness, promoting the sport etc.. the list goes on! rugby league is bigger than just a few clubs/players and it's a shame most in the NRL fail to see this!
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
If I remember correctly, the entire Dodgers and Diamondbacks teams were killed when they came to Sydney. They weren't adapted correctly to our spiders and coupled with the deadly altitude sickness they got from their 30,000ft flight they were dead within the week.

Medical concerns what garbage. The only thing the clubs are concerned about is losing players for the weekend after. These are the same clubs that force players to play through injuries that all of a sudden 'need surgery' when the international season begins, and the same clubs that force players through 4 months of gruelling pre-season.
Isn't there a possibility of an NRL game in the States next year? I hope it's at the Mile High. The whinging journos and clubs will change their tune then.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
NZ and England should just name their teams, fly them over and play the test FFS. Who cares what the clubs think? what's the worse they can do? sack the players for what is essentially spreading rugby league into new territory, increasing awareness, promoting the sport etc.. the list goes on! rugby league is bigger than just a few clubs/players and it's a shame most in the NRL fail to see this!
I'd love to see the clubs try and reprimand or punish the players for taking part in this game. How many of the NRL based players would you expect to not get picked up by another team if they were sacked?
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
I'd love to see the clubs try and reprimand or punish the players for taking part in this game. How many of the NRL based players would you expect to not get picked up by another team if they were sacked?

The players need to stand up to their clubs to get this thing over the line.
I expect the English players are more likely to. Graham and Widdop have both publicly said they support it... Time for the likes of Shaun Johnson, Adam Blair, RTS to as well
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785

This wouldn't be happening if they were properly compensated for their loss...

All of you have it arse about, you're all trying to convince the clubs to cooperate with the stick rather than the carrot and it just doesn't work.

I mean sure you might get this game up, but each time you try to get a game up you'll have this exact same fight on your hands, surely it's better for everyone if everybody comes to an agreement and then everybody works together, and the only way that is going to happen is if you give a little back to cover what you take...

A dog trained with treats learns much more quickly then one that is beaten, and it loves it's owner for the pleasure of learning as well.
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
This wouldn't be happening if they were properly compensated for their loss...

All of you have it arse about, you're all trying to convince the clubs to cooperate with the stick rather than the carrot and it just doesn't work.

I mean sure you might get this game up, but each time you try to get a game up you'll have this exact same fight on your hands, surely it's better for everyone if everybody comes to an agreement and then everybody works together, and the only way that is going to happen is if you give a little back to cover what you take...

A dog trained with treats learns much more quickly then one that is beaten, and it loves it's owner for the pleasure of learning as well.

For what loss it’s a rep window? The agreement is that rep games are going to be played. Why is it that the English teams seem to be able to make this work when they have much more to lose than the NRL sides. Canberra aren’t going to be relegated because Hodgson was injured playing for England, just as the cowboys didn’t losing JT last year to origin.

The players need to stand up to their clubs to get this thing over the line.
I expect the English players are more likely to. Graham and Widdop have both publicly said they support it... Time for the likes of Shaun Johnson, Adam Blair, RTS to as well

I expect Graham to start windmilling if anyone tries to stop him pulling on the England shirt.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
For what loss it’s a rep window? The agreement is that rep games are going to be played. Why is it that the English teams seem to be able to make this work when they have much more to lose than the NRL sides. Canberra aren’t going to be relegated because Hodgson was injured playing for England, just as the cowboys didn’t losing JT last year to origin.

They lose income, and money spent on players that aren't playing for them! Not everything is about the on field result.

Time that Hodgson or JT has off is still time they expect to be payed, if they get injured they still need to be payed, time they take off is time that they aren't available to fulfill their duties to their clubs, it's time that they aren't doing media and community engagements, it's lowered ticket sales cause they aren't there, it's lowered sponsorship if a player needs an extended period off, etc, etc, it all adds up.

And frankly at this point in time the NRL clubs have more to lose monetarily then the English clubs when it comes to internationals like this, simplifying it a little bit but the English clubs need international football for the publicity and exposure that it brings more than international football needs them and international football needs the NRL clubs more then the NRL clubs need international football cause internationals need the players and legitimacy that the NRL brings. If the roles were reversed the English clubs would be just as difficult to work with as the NRL clubs are under the circumstances.

BTW it's not clear at all that the NRL clubs ever signed off on the rep window (in fact it seems obvious from their reaction to this Denver game that they didn't, and frankly the NRL shouldn't be agreeing to things like this unless they have the clubs full support), it's not even clear that the NRL supported the international window or voted for it at the RLIF, there's layers here that a lot of people are assuming that we don't actually know about...
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
They lose income, and money spent on players that aren't playing for them! Not everything is about the on field result.

Time that Hodgson or JT has off is still time they expect to be payed, if they get injured they still need to be payed, time they take off is time that they aren't available to fulfill their duties to their clubs, it's time that they aren't doing media and community engagements, it's lowered ticket sales cause they aren't there, it's lowered sponsorship if a player needs an extended period off, etc, etc, it all adds up.

And frankly at this point in time the NRL clubs have more to lose monetarily then the English clubs when it comes to internationals like this, simplifying it a little bit but the English clubs need international football for the publicity and exposure that it brings more than international football needs them and international football needs the NRL clubs more then the NRL clubs need international football cause internationals need the players and legitimacy that the NRL brings. If the roles were reversed the English clubs would be just as difficult to work with as the NRL clubs are under the circumstances.

BTW it's not clear at all that the NRL clubs ever signed off on the rep window (in fact it seems obvious from their reaction to this Denver game that they didn't, and frankly the NRL shouldn't be agreeing to things like this unless they have the clubs full support), it's not even clear that the NRL supported the international window or voted for it at the RLIF, there's layers here that a lot of people are assuming that we don't actually know about...

The NRL shouldn’t even have a say in it.

You’re as short sighted as these clubs, the bgger the sport can get the better for the NRL. If the sport grows the NRL will it’s the premier competition.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
The only thing 'arse about' here is the idea that the clubs are owed anything.

The NRL takes a lot from NZ in particular and gives very, very little back. The NZRL should receive proportionate funding to the players they contribute, but they don't get close to what the NSWRL and QRL do.
The NRL, through financial weight, has taken a good chunk of England's top players, and now wants to stop them representing England?

I'm all for the NRL to provide salary cap relief to its own clubs if it wishes, I couldn't give a shit either way tbh, that's an in-competition concern not an international concern.
But to suggest that cash strapped international teams compensate $30mil a year turnover NRL clubs for players to play representative football is just about the most arse-about thing i've ever read on this website.

Top players come from England and NZ to the NRL for the cash, weakening the competitions in England and making it impossible for NZ to even have a professional competition. And that's fine, to an extent. The question comes down to what responsibility the NRL has to the wider game. Obviously you @The Great Dane think it is zero. Most of us disagree. "With great power comes great responsibility" and all that. The NRL's financial weight means it gets the top talent, yes. But the other side of that coin should be a responsiblity to the game, to the countries it takes players from, to support the lesser powers and the places the game is just starting.

If money was all that mattered, everything would just gravitate towards the NRL until there is basically nothing else. That's not somewhere the game should strive to be.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
The NRL shouldn’t even have a say in it.

You’re as short sighted as these clubs, the bgger the sport can get the better for the NRL. If the sport grows the NRL will it’s the premier competition.

So you're saying that an organisation tangentially in partnership with another should be able to exploit the resources of another with impunity and without the consent of the organisation whose resources are being explioted cause it may grow the industry as a whole?

It'd be great if the industry as a whole grew but what use would it be to the organisation that had all it's resources exploited to do so? They wouldn't have the resources to exploit the growth cause all their resources would either be tied up propping up the growth or spent to buy the growth.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
There's little that can be done if the NRL play bully here. Wait and watch as it spirals downwards into obscurity and then say "told ya so".

England has the financial clout to pull at least some of the Graham's and Burgess' calibre players back to Super League and ensure they're available in future.
NZ has no such power. Maybe it could encourage players towards Super League but that would be ineffective.
 

Springs09

Juniors
Messages
1,903
They lose income, and money spent on players that aren't playing for them! Not everything is about the on field result.

Time that Hodgson or JT has off is still time they expect to be payed, if they get injured they still need to be payed, time they take off is time that they aren't available to fulfill their duties to their clubs, it's time that they aren't doing media and community engagements, it's lowered ticket sales cause they aren't there, it's lowered sponsorship if a player needs an extended period off, etc, etc, it all adds up.

And frankly at this point in time the NRL clubs have more to lose monetarily then the English clubs when it comes to internationals like this, simplifying it a little bit but the English clubs need international football for the publicity and exposure that it brings more than international football needs them and international football needs the NRL clubs more then the NRL clubs need international football cause internationals need the players and legitimacy that the NRL brings. If the roles were reversed the English clubs would be just as difficult to work with as the NRL clubs are under the circumstances.

BTW it's not clear at all that the NRL clubs ever signed off on the rep window (in fact it seems obvious from their reaction to this Denver game that they didn't, and frankly the NRL shouldn't be agreeing to things like this unless they have the clubs full support), it's not even clear that the NRL supported the international window or voted for it at the RLIF, there's layers here that a lot of people are assuming that we don't actually know about...

Yep so what makes this different than Origin then? Or any other rep football? If the clubs have the final word on everything we have no rep football whatsoever.

I hope Smith and Thurston apologised to Jahrome Hughes when he was injured in a meaningless trial match for their benefit.

Don't listen to the clubs about anything. They won't fully support anything that doesn't help them. If England had a game where only say Widdop and Graham were playing from the NRL you'd have 15 clubs say yes hoping they'd get injured and out for the season.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
It'd be great if the industry as a whole grew but what use would it be to the organisation that had all it's resources exploited to do so? They wouldn't have the resources to exploit the growth cause all their resources would either be tied up propping up the growth or spent to buy the growth.

Rambling nonsense.
Do you think Josh Hodgson represents all the Raiders resources?
Is Josh Hodgson's injury the end of the Canberra Raiders?
If Sticky told Hodgson he couldn't play for England I reckon he'd tell Sticky to shove his contract up his arse.
 

Pommy

Coach
Messages
14,657
So you're saying that an organisation tangentially in partnership with another should be able to exploit the resources of another with impunity and without the consent of the organisation whose resources are being explioted cause it may grow the industry as a whole?

It'd be great if the industry as a whole grew but what use would it be to the organisation that had all it's resources exploited to do so? They wouldn't have the resources to exploit the growth cause all their resources would either be tied up propping up the growth or spent to buy the growth.

You mean in the way the NRL does by taking the top talent and giving nothing in return, that type of exploitation?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
The only thing 'arse about' here is the idea that the clubs are owed anything.

In this case they are owed something, they are business's that are having their resources used by another business without compensation.

If it was your business you'd be pretty pissed too, unless it was a state of emergency or something.

The NRL takes a lot from NZ in particular and gives very, very little back. The NZRL should receive proportionate funding to the players they contribute, but they don't get close to what the NSWRL and QRL do.

Firstly the NZRL don't own the players from NZ, just as the NRL doesn't own players from Australia, they have no 'right' or whatever to them just cause they are Kiwis, the NRL clubs do however have a 'right' to their services cause they have a contractual agreement with the players in question that says these player will play for this period of time and under these circumstances for them. The NZRL (and the RFL, and Moore) is affecting the players ability to fulfill that contract with immunity from the responsibilities of that contract to each party, and that is wrong, it is morally wrong.

If this was the government or governing body of an industry that was consistently commandeering the employees and/or equipment of a private business (say a small construction company just for example) without compensating the business and it's owners you'd be outraged, absolutely outraged, the whole country would crack it with shouts of corruption and abuse of power, and they'd be right to, this is no different, but for some reason their is a mental block that says professional sport isn't a 'real business' and it's not the same cause they're going to represent their country in everyones' brains, when it's exactly the same.

BTW, the NZRL it's self shouldn't see a cent from the NRL unless they come under the NRLs' jurisdiction, they do however receive grants from the NRL, and it's the NRL's decision to do that, but they shouldn't, but this's a whole other discussion.

The NRL, through financial weight, has taken a good chunk of England's top players, and now wants to stop them representing England?

Again the RFL doesn't own English players, and there's nothing to suggest that the NRL clubs want to stop them from representing England, if the did want to stop them representing England then they wouldn't have let them represent England at the world cup, they just don't want them representing England at their expense, and that's a completely reasonable request.

I'm all for the NRL to provide salary cap relief to its own clubs if it wishes, I couldn't give a shit either way tbh, that's an in-competition concern not an international concern.

Of course you couldn't you're a Roosters fan, you don't have a cap...

Seriously though, cap exemptions would be a good start, but it needs to go beyond that, and it shouldn't only be for the NRL clubs, it should be universal, the RFL should be doing it, the NZRL should be doing it, where applicable everyone should be doing it, and not just for the top tier either, if a championship club, QLD cup club, or even a lowly Group 8 club, whoever is being effected by this then there should be some sort of compensation worked out.

But to suggest that cash strapped international teams compensate $30mil a year turnover NRL clubs for players to play representative football is just about the most arse-about thing i've ever read on this website.

Unfortunately the NRL clubs aren't charities, if people want their services they have to pay for them, and their's no reason why the small nations themselves would have to pay that compensation.

Besides their are forms of compensation other then just monetary.

Top players come from England and NZ to the NRL for the cash, weakening the competitions in England and making it impossible for NZ to even have a professional competition. And that's fine, to an extent. The question comes down to what responsibility the NRL has to the wider game. Obviously you @The Great Dane think it is zero. Most of us disagree. "With great power comes great responsibility" and all that. The NRL's financial weight means it gets the top talent, yes. But the other side of that coin should be a responsiblity to the game, to the countries it takes players from, to support the lesser powers and the places the game is just starting.

I don't believe that at all, don't put words in my mouth.

Obviously the NRL has to put back into the grassroots of the game and all that (which they do so outside of their region more so than any other RL in the world, if they didn't effectively prop up RL in NZ and the PIs RL wouldn't be half as big as it is on the international stage), they should also support international RL, whether or not they put as much back in as they should is another question for another time, however they should not be expected to do that at the expense and/or to the detriment of their own region and constituencies.

The NRL and NRL clubs first concern is to themselves, cause you can't help anybody if you can't help yourself...

If money was all that mattered, everything would just gravitate towards the NRL until there is basically nothing else. That's not somewhere the game should strive to be.

That's not necessarily true, and it's not the way that things are going either, however if the NRL out competes the rest of the market it out competes the rest of the market, we shouldn't be trying to plan the RL economy so to speak cause it never works anyway.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
Yep so what makes this different than Origin then? Or any other rep football? If the clubs have the final word on everything we have no rep football whatsoever.

Cause they benefit from them (SOO) or they aren't usually directly affected by them to any great degree (tests in the off season) so they don't mind, that is not the case with this Denver game or other mid season internationals in general, at least not the ones that the Kangaroos aren't participating in that is.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
Rambling nonsense.
Do you think Josh Hodgson represents all the Raiders resources?
Is Josh Hodgson's injury the end of the Canberra Raiders?

I never said he did represent all the Raiders resources or that his injury was the end of the Raiders (though it probably was the end of our season this year to be honest, well that mixed with being forced to cut Baptise free and not have a suitable replacment), however he does represent one of their resources so long as he is contracted to them, and the Raiders are affected as a consequence of his loss.

If Sticky told Hodgson he couldn't play for England I reckon he'd tell Sticky to shove his contract up his arse.

And if the Raiders had any sense they'd take him to court for breaching his contract... I wouldn't like to see that happen though.

Why are we stuck on Hodgson anyway?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,785
You mean in the way the NRL does by taking the top talent and giving nothing in return, that type of exploitation?

Jesus Christ, this theme seems to keep coming up and frankly it's just stupid, just very, very stupid.

The NZRL and RFL do not own the every English and Kiwi player, the players aren't slaves to their nations sporting organisations, nor should they be for obvious reasons, that'd be a bad result for everyone involved, and it's not exploitation if the players choose to sign to NRL clubs instead of stay in England or NZ, unless of course they have been coerced into signing or forced to sign.

The Players are contractors, they don't owe anything to their prior employees once their contracts expire.
 
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