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Queenslander!

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,993
I used the example of Kenny to slight the Lewis myth.

Same point applies.

Bias stirs up negative connotations. Strategic opinion, strategic inclination could be substituted here. But point is valid. Also a valid point to say Lewis was dropped because Kenny was in great form having done well in two grand finals and origin.

Just as it's valid to say he was ruled out because he couldn't pass a medical test.

He lost his spot to Kenny, it does slight the Lewis myth no matter how well you spin otherwise.

Not as significantly as you lead people to believe by saying he was dropped. Fans should be reminded of the conjecture involved and should still be aware that Lewis was on the bench and vice captain. He wasn't dropped from the team altogether.

Here's a thought for you Pete - if Lewis was merely injured in 1990 why when he returned in 1991 was he not reinstated the captaincy? When captains return from injury they normally get the C back. But don't when they have been dropped.

Because Meninga did a bang up job and had more miles in his legs left to travel.

Just like Lockyer when he took over from Johns. Was Johns dropped?

Yes - but not excuse when the Broncos have won six premierships while contributing heavily to origin. Same with the Melbourne Storm errr NULL premierships. Or the Raiders...

All six premierships had come at a time where the coach had grown accustomed to the effects of Origin, allowing him to be prepared for the adverse effects that competition would have on his side.

In the early parts, he and his players weren't as well equipped intellectually to handle the effects of Origin football on his squad. Not to the extent the Broncos had to at least.

If that was a problem it was up to Wally to sort it and manage the relationships with his team. Who was the horses mouth - the players or Wally?

The coach.

It's not as easy as you make it sound, Wally's popularity mixed with all the responsibilities he already had made it difficult.
Doesn't that really help RABK's point that Wally only contributed for Origin? (Not my point btw).

No because RABK refuses to acknowledge Lewis' 211 games in the BRL.

He did contribute to the Broncos as well, to simply state he didn't contribute a thing at club level is very misleading.

Define ability? Ability to manage relations with players? Ability to train? Ability to do the things Kevvy Walters could do? If Wally's performances had been in elite in 1990 as they had been previously - there is less likelihood he would have been canned. Simple. No matter how you spin it.

Ability on-field.

Lewis was injured through out most of 1990. How was he ever supposed to show his on-field ability on the sidelines?

The point is, you bring up his form, what had a major contribution to that form? Why was he benched? What contributed to that?

I suppose in 2008, Stagg was a far superior five eigth to Lockyer given he was benched.

Billy Moore screamed Queenslander as he played for Queensland against what team in origin?

Did Billy Moore prepare for Origin with anyone dressed in the Sky Blue?

Because its an origin thread. Cannot not have a Queensland origin team thread without a team to play against.

This is an Origin board. It doesn't take much to start up an Origin thread for the specific purpose of talking up New South Wales players.

I don't know why you would mention anybody wearing the Sky Blue in an Origin thread about Queensland.

During preparation do you think Mal gets his players to gather and pay tribute to Ray Price, Steve Mortimer and Andrew Johns?

Else its as exciting as reading the ESL Dream team. NSW are part of Origin history too - its not just ours.

Maybe to you.

Truth is this is a Queensland thread made to pay tribute to the history of the Queensland side and it's players in Origin history.

If you feel obliged to pay tribute to New South Wales players there is a button to make all those things happen.
 

kruzin

Juniors
Messages
261
cornerposter, u really need a new insult lol. it was funny for the first 5 times, but it is getting a bit old.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Not as significantly as you lead people to believe by saying he was dropped.

So Lewis lost his spot to Kenny in 82. Lost his spot to Jackson in 91. And may have lost his spot for reasons other than injury in 1990. All these do cast a slight on the Lewis myth.


Because Meninga did a bang up job and had more miles in his legs left to travel.

So Lewis was stripped of the captaincy as well in 1991.

All six premierships had come at a time where the coach had grown accustomed to the effects of Origin, allowing him to be prepared for the adverse effects that competition would have on his side.

So you're going with Bennets inexperience at the time to coach a team with many experienced superstars - and not considering the leadership or on field direction of the captain come crunch time in post season well after origin. Your choice.

In the early parts, he and his players weren't as well equipped intellectually to handle the effects of Origin football on his squad. Not to the extent the Broncos had to at least.

But if the BRL was as competitive and worthwhile competetion you make out then wouldn't the core Bronco players have been used to going from origin back to club games. Blaming the strength that 88-90 squad had on origin is weak Pete. They had an incredible squad of both experienced and young superstars with soon to become superstars. We're talking a dream roster that will could give Brian Waldrom a hard on.

It's not as easy as you make it sound, Wally's popularity mixed with all the responsibilities he already had made it difficult.

It is the captains job to manage his relationships with players. If he cannot for the good of the team - it is a slight on his value to the team in achieving results.

He did contribute to the Broncos as well, to simply state he didn't contribute a thing at club level is very misleading.

Not as well as Bronco fans had hoped, though.

Lewis was injured through out most of 1990. How was he ever supposed to show his on-field ability on the sidelines?
Well that ignores the fact he had lost the five eigth position already before the season started. Probably due to his poor 1989 form. Begs the question - If Wally was so good why did the Broncs recruit 1989 Origin debutante Kevvy Walters for 1990. Possibly a new direction by Bennet - but why was it needed? People after the fact say long term planning - but Broncos fans demanded immeadiate success. It was not an unreasonable demand with the roster they had - you can blame origin - but the direction on the field was lacking. The Broncs made post season in 2 of those 3 years - well after the origin headache and were thrashed in their exits. The most interesting point of all is 1990 - when Wally spent less time on the field - Brisbane drastically improved in their results!

Did Billy Moore prepare for Origin with anyone dressed in the Sky Blue?
Is anyone who contributes towards discussion in this thread ACTUALLY playing in Origin. I fail to see relevance as watching is not participating.

This is an Origin board. It doesn't take much to start up an Origin thread for the specific purpose of talking up New South Wales players.

Actually as you have suggested previously I was talking down a Qld player.

I don't know why you would mention anybody wearing the Sky Blue in an Origin thread about Queensland.

To cast slight on the Lewis myth who wore Maroon with a comparison with the player he played against.

During preparation do you think Mal gets his players to gather and pay tribute to Ray Price, Steve Mortimer and Andrew Johns?

No - but Pete - people in this thread are not actually going to be playing the game. Its an irrelevant question. Do you only discuss the players in your side past and present before watching a game? You do not take interest in who they're up against? Odd if you.


Truth is this is a Queensland thread made to pay tribute to the history of the Queensland side and it's players in Origin history.

I pay tribute to great Qld players - but I do not embellish their achievements to myth status. Wally's myth has become a cult of personality.

If you feel obliged to pay tribute to New South Wales players there is a button to make all those things happen.

True. But I just wanted to erode the myth that was forming in this thread.
 
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Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
You have an answer for everything don't you Laggie? And you're always right I presume?

Maybe you should start eroding something else apart from myths ...
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Daz - I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. But if someone verifies their facts and argues logically its hard for them to be proven wrong.

If you canot tell by now there are at least two things I really love - footy and arguing. Just like a lot of people on this forum. I admit my mistakes but loathe to make them and never back down easily. I enjoy playing devil's advocate as well.

Wally Lewis was one of the best players I ever witnessed play origin. In my view he deserved his statue - deserved his image on the shield - and deserves status among the elite. But the incredible Wally Lewis myth he does not deserve.
 
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Big Pete

Referee
Messages
28,993
Alright this thread has gone long enough, it's been good debating with you AntiLag but unfortunately all good things must come to an end. This will be my last post in response to you and then I want to move on.
And may have lost his spot for reasons other than injury in 1990.

That's exactly it. Maybe. The official response is that he was injured, there is enough reason to believe he would be picked given Arthurson's backing.

It should be stricken from the record.
So you're going with Bennets inexperience at the time to coach a team with many experienced superstars - and not considering the leadership or on field direction of the captain come crunch time in post season well after origin. Your choice.

Both. How many others had attempted what that club was doing at that time and were successful?

And by doing, I mean all coming together, playing in a new competition, having to all back up after Origin as a unit and having to fly down to Sydney every second week...for the first time in their career?

You make it sound like a cake walk, and I very much doubt it was.

But if the BRL was as competitive and worthwhile competetion you make out then wouldn't the core Bronco players have been used to going from origin back to club games.

Not to the extent of what the Broncos had to endure though.

They had an incredible squad of both experienced and young superstars with soon to become superstars. We're talking a dream roster that will could give Brian Waldrom a hard on.

How many of them had played together weekly though? How many had travelled to Sydney every two weeks? At least Waldron's boys were conditioned to these aspects of the game, a lot of these Broncos boys were adjusting to it on the fly.

Well that ignores the fact he had lost the five eigth position already before the season started.

Largely because he didn't complete the preseason and Kevin Walters who had impressed the coaching staff so much Bennett was willing to experiment.

Begs the question - If Wally was so good why did the Broncs recruit 1989 Origin debutante Kevvy Walters for 1990.

Kev wanted to come home. He accepted a substantially smaller contract to join Brisbane than elsewhere. If an Origin utility knocked on your door and said he was willing to play for your club at a reduced price would you knock him back?

Especially when his twin brother is at the club along with one of his best mates?

The most interesting point of all is 1990 - when Wally spent less time on the field - Brisbane drastically improved in their results!

Two years after the Broncos had been in the competition and after their best preseason to date under Kevin Giles.

As for being benched, it's to be believed it was due to injury. That wouldn't be the last time either, would you believe David Stagg was a better player than Lockyer? Or that Lockyer was benched because he was coming back from a serious injury?

Is anyone who contributes towards discussion in this thread ACTUALLY playing in Origin. I fail to see relevance as watching is not participating.
I was just saying Billy Moore did it to fire up his troops. He didn't do it to attract NSW players or to speak them up.

Actually as you have suggested previously I was talking down a Qld player.

But you want people to honour NSW players in this thread.

To cast slight on the Lewis myth who wore Maroon with a comparison with the player he played against.

To honour them out of the blue like you had originally wanted. No pun intended by the by I just looked over it then and saw it...I'm in no way a comedian.

How about this, if the Queensland Sporting Hall of Fame was having a presentation night, would you expect to see Ray Price, Brett Kenny and Steve Mortimer inducted?

If not then why do they deserved to get talked up in a Queensland thread? Mentioned sure, but honoured?

Come on, NSW fans are big enough to make their own threads and pay tribute to them without us fans there to hold his hand.

I pay tribute to great Qld players - but I do not embellish their achievements to myth status. Wally's myth has become a cult of personality.

And Johns' hasn't?

It was fine to blame the selectors earlier when Johns' reputation came into question, but those same standards weren't applied to Lewis in 1982.

Come on mate, fans are passionate about their favourite players. If they believe such and such is the best player allow them to explain why first before you begin critiquing and nit-picking at their career.

Mind you it is refreshing to see another argument from the other side from somebody who has an obvious wealth of knowledge. I know cornerposts and so on has been giving it to you, but I personally have enjoyed this and I've learnt a lot from it.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
I was just saying Billy Moore did it to fire up his troops. He didn't do it to attract NSW players or to speak them up.

Paul Vautin is not the most reliable source of information but he has repeatedly tells the tale of how Billy Moore said Queenslander to bait and attract Nsw players into a tussle.

But you want people to honour NSW players in this thread.
I actually started with lets not let the Wally myth get out of control

How about this, if the Queensland Sporting Hall of Fame was having a presentation night, would you expect to see Ray Price, Brett Kenny and Steve Mortimer inducted?
No b ut I would expect to hear war stories about how the Qld players had to compete against Price, Kenny and Mortimer, and how well they compared.

If not then why do they deserved to get talked up in a Queensland thread? Mentioned sure, but honoured?
Because it is player performances are relative to the opposition.

Come on mate, fans are passionate about their favourite players. If they believe such and such is the best player allow them to explain why first before you begin critiquing and nit-picking at their career.
There has never been such a principle. If I disagree with a conclusion before I've heard the reasoning - I can give my own reasoning as to why the conclusion is not accurate to me.
 

cornerposter

Juniors
Messages
978
If you canot tell by now there are at least two things I really love - footy and arguing. Just like a lot of people on this forum. I admit my mistakes but loathe to make them and never back down easily. I enjoy playing devil's advocate as well.
Let me translate:
If you cannot tell by now, I am a total f**ktard. I choose to totally ignore facts that don't suit my hollow arguments and my goal is to create an illusion of intelligence. I believe in flogging a dead horse almost as much as flogging myself after creating a 5000 word rebuttal to someone's off the cuff remark. This is MY LIFE - Antilag
 

Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
Wally's a legend.

And like all legends from the dawning of time ... he lives in the people's hearts.
 

Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
Let me translate:
If you cannot tell by now, I am a total f**ktard. I choose to totally ignore facts that don't suit my hollow arguments and my goal is to create an illusion of intelligence. I believe in flogging a dead horse almost as much as flogging myself after creating a 5000 word rebuttal to someone's off the cuff remark. This is MY LIFE - Antilag

I know a little about intellectuals ... have worked in a university. This is how it goes:

Ohhh I'm so good at arguing ... so I'll just argue with people for the sake of it ... argue ... argue ... argue ... argue ... I'm so good at arguing ... I know so much, I'm so clever ... oh look at my prose ... oh I'm so amazing. The turn of phrase ... the insight and ability to pick things apart ... oh oh ...

Pause.

Oh ... I've actually go to do something to earn a living. But isn't my arguing enough? Can't I just be clever and prove everyone else wrong. Oh you want to achieve something ... ohh ... that's not my area ... I just argue.
 

BIKER_DRAGON

Juniors
Messages
1,894
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