Round 1 2015 Team

[I'm a loser baby...]

you may aswell just eat frostflaties then

Ha. Tho even as a kid they were too sugary for me. First bite was ok, but then...

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

In union, the 2nd rowers are the 'locks'.

 

[Obscene Assassin]

Until they officially change the names of the positions, we should just stick with what they are actually called.

Personally, I don't care what the position is called as it doesn't accurately describe the role that is played within the team. I also think that the only ones that can be called a different name by their role is middle forwards and halves. The rest are just called what position they play on the field.

 

[oldmancraigy]

As far as I remember it was still called second row though.

I think they called them wide running 2nd rowers.

I have a vague memory of the Dragons doing it in the early 90s, but think it was just called 2nd row back then?

 

[lingard]

OK. I'm going back to using 'conflate'.

No. Don't. I'm sorry.

 

[lingard]

Well obviously you are happy with the old terminology lingard, but for many others (including modern coaches and players) there is new terminology that better reflects what is happening on the field, even if has been happening since the 60s.

Fair enough. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[lingard]

10?? More like 20?

Hindy was left edge forward in 99/00 etc. That's 15 years ago now!

According to some. According to others he was a second row forward.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

The problem was when Hindy moved into the middle every merkin kept calling him a second rower. They just couldn't see past his jersey number. It's the same with Watmough.

 

[caylo]

The problem was when Hindy moved into the middle every merkin kept calling him a second rower. They just couldn't see past his jersey number. It's the same with Watmough.

Absolutely, in hindys case he was synonymous with the number 11 similar to Kennedy the difference ials when Kennedy moved to many he wore the 13. Now with locks they have always been know as the 5-8 of the forwards and there has been different rolls such as ball players (fittlers early years) or more defensive such as ricketson. Today the role has not changed at all the only change is that some props who are fitter then in the past have moved into #13 jersey. Now when insyarted playing league 15 years ago second rowers were known as wide running backrowers so that hasn't really changed.

Also you are right that the halves has changed but outside of all halves defending on each edge not all halves are purely left or right side players eg being Thurston, dce and even sandow and norman. For me Thurston is a traditional 5-8 even though he is the dominant half. The biggest change for me over the last 20 years in the fullback role and even slater and Stewart game have changed in the last 5 years but no one is changing their name.

Calling a lock a middle half ia geniused for me because would anyone call Graham a middle half? No we call him a ball playing prop. I call players like paulo, mateo, Stewart and bird ball playing backrowers because these players often exhange between playing on an edge or in the middle but they don't play the same role as halves.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Graham isn't a middle half because he runs the ball about as often as he passes. Joe Paulo passes the ball about twice as often.

I would call James Graham a 'lock' anyway. With their big edge forwards making hit ups the Bulldogs only use one 'prop' on the field at a time (Tolman/Klemmer). But we see Graham's jersey number and assume he must play in the front row because 'everyone knows jerseys 8 and 10 are the props!'

 

[lingard]

The problem was when Hindy moved into the middle every merkin kept calling him a second rower. They just couldn't see past his jersey number. It's the same with Watmough.

And it's a shame some other merkins figured that because they thought he defended in the middle he should be called a middle forward because they couldn't see past that. My recollection is that he did an enormous amount of cover-defending as well. Maybe he should have been called a lock - because, after all, wasn't that one of the roles of the traditional lock forward? (Truth is some locks were good cover-defenders but some weren't. They were still locks, though.)

#thenamedoesn'tnecessarilydescribetheposition-neverdidneverwill

 

[Someone]

Graham isn't a middle half because he runs the ball about as often as he passes. Joe Paulo passes the ball about twice as often.

I would call James Graham a 'lock' anyway. With their big edge forwards making hit ups the Bulldogs only use one 'prop' on the field at a time (Tolman/Klemmer). But we see Graham's jersey number and assume he must play in the front row because 'everyone knows jerseys 8 and 10 are the props!'

Your right, teams don't play to the tradition rule of positions.

Its the numbers that only matter anyway. Teams are putting the number 1 on there second 5/8's every week. big deal.

James Graham is BOTH a prop and a lock, all in the one game. Players these days are versatile to play more than one role within a game.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

nrlstats have recently taken down access to this year's stats but I found a recent post of mine elsewhere that looked into the difference between Paulo and Graham's style of play:

in their most recent five games Graham passed before the line 38% of the time whereas Paulo passed it about twice as often (77%). Paulo handled the ball slightly more than Graham (27 touches per game to 23).

That's why Graham isn't a 'middle half'. Besides the Bulldogs just don't need one the way we do - our halves handle the ball nearly twice as often as do the Dogs' halves.

Reynolds and Hodkinson handle the ball just over 30 times in 80 minutes, meaning both James Graham and Joe Paulo handle the ball more often than the Bulldogs' halves.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

And it's a shame some other merkins figured that because they thought he defended in the middle he should be called a middle forward because they couldn't see past that. My recollection is that he did an enormous amount of cover-defending as well. Maybe he should have been called a lock - because, after all, wasn't that one of the roles of the traditional lock forward? (Truth is some locks were good cover-defenders but some weren't. They were still locks, though.)

#thenamedoesn'tnecessarilydescribetheposition-neverdidneverwill

Yeah I called Hindy the lock and still do. So did his coach Daniel Anderson.

There are still lock forwards in the game (plenty of teams use two of them) but IMO Joe Paulo is more of an extra half than a lock because he is more passer than runner, running the ball less than 25% of the time he receives it.

 

[Bigfella]

No one calls Anderson the coach any more though

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Maybe it doesn't describe what he does?

 

[caylo]

Graham isn't a middle half because he runs the ball about as often as he passes. Joe Paulo passes the ball about twice as often.

I would call James Graham a 'lock' anyway. With their big edge forwards making hit ups the Bulldogs only use one 'prop' on the field at a time (Tolman/Klemmer). But we see Graham's jersey number and assume he must play in the front row because 'everyone knows jerseys 8 and 10 are the props!'

So if a prop passes the ball hia not a prop? While i agree that paulo passes a lot more mateo or bird would pass a lot less but are more creative. Remeber that being a half means more than just passing, running and dummying is just as important.

For me a prop takes early runs and are battering rams early in sets which Graham does but you are right he does handle the ball later in sets as well like backrowers will but for me that makes him a prop with a better) well rounded game.

We can argue about positions at the end of the day they are 13 blokes playing on a football fields and each player will play a role but bring their own skills to the game. Similarly guys like taylor, loko, idris struggle to fit any conventional role and guya like hayne and inglis could play in any position.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So if a prop passes the ball hia not a prop?

Okay end it there. That's exactly what I said. You win.

While i agree that paulo passes a lot more mateo or bird would pass a lot less but are more creative. Remeber that being a half means more than just passing, running and dummying is just as important.

For me a prop takes early runs and are battering rams early in sets which Graham does but you are right he does handle the ball later in sets as well like backrowers will but for me that makes him a prop with a better) well rounded game.

We can argue about positions at the end of the day they are 13 blokes playing on a football fields and each player will play a role but bring their own skills to the game. Similarly guys like taylor, loko, idris struggle to fit any conventional role and guya like hayne and inglis could play in any position.

I mostly agree. Some players don't fit neatly into any position and their role at the position often reflects that. That's why most positions can be described by where they defend, or at least the fullback and all eight edge players can. That's how their jerseys are (usually) numbered as well, with the rare occasion of the edge forwards that wear 12 and 13 rather than 11 and 12.

It's the middle three that don't fit neatly into the boxes dreamt up by the founders of the game over 100 years ago. The dummy half wears 9 but what of the other three? Sure they are some combination of (traditional) 'props' and 'locks' but don't be surprised if you see our team play more than a few minutes next year with Watmough, Joe Paulo and an old school front rower (but only one) in the middle with Peats.

In that case you could call Paulo the 'lock' but Watmough will also be playing 'lock'. Best just to refer to Paulo (or whoever fills that role) as the 'middle half'.

You can't stop progress.

 

[caylo]

Okay end it there. That's exactly what I said. You win.

I mostly agree. Some players don't fit neatly into any position and their role at the position often reflects that. That's why most positions can be described by where they defend, or at least the fullback and all eight edge players can. That's how their jerseys are (usually) numbered as well, with the rare occasion of the edge forwards that wear 12 and 13 rather than 11 and 12.

It's the middle three that don't fit neatly into the boxes dreamt up by the founders of the game over 100 years ago. The dummy half wears 9 but what of the other three? Sure they are some combination of (traditional) 'props' and 'locks' but don't be surprised if you see our team play more than a few minutes next year with Watmough, Joe Paulo and an old school front rower (but only one) in the middle with Peats.

In that case you could call Paulo the 'lock' but Watmough will also be playing 'lock'. Best just to refer to Paulo (or whoever fills that role) as the 'middle half'.

You can't stop progress.

Each to their own, paulo I guess sits in the books as a player with no real position and this year with Watmough, Edwards and gower able to play through the middle i dont expect for him to get much game time tbh. I think Jnr Paulo, Watmough, Edwards and hopefully Mannah will pass before the line a lot more this year

 

[Obscene Assassin]

I think we'll see Kenny step into a middle half type role next year. Maybe not passing as much as Paulo but he'll be passing more than he did this year.