Expanding the NRL through Promotion and Relegation

[BuderusIsaBeast]

I have been experimenting of a competition structure to expand the NRL. I have come up with a promotion and relegation system. All teams in both divisons will play under the same salary cap and I see a lot of potential in a system like this to service and grow the sport in both Australia and New Zealand. Two 12 team competitions that will have teams throughout Australia, New Zealand and PNG. Two teams will be promoted and two will be relegated each season.

Even 22 rounds where every team plays each other home and away. Plus 3 rep rounds for Origin and Internationals. NSW Cup and QLD Cup can remain as feeder clubs. How junior development is managed is up for debate however the desire is for a newcastle junior to filter through to the Knights or a WA junior to filter through the Pirates etc.

NRL Premiership
Cronulla Sharks
Melbourne Storm
North Queensland Cowboys
Canberra Raiders
Canterbury Bulldogs
Brisbane Broncos
Gold Coast Titans
Penrith Panthers
St George Illawarra Dragons
Auckland Warriors
Wests Tigers
Manly Sea Eagles

NRL Championship
Parramatta Eels
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Sydney Roosters
Newcastle Knights
West Coast Pirates
Brisbane Jets (Merger of the Ipswich Jets and Brisbane Bombers bids. Jets based on Southside, Broncos Northside)
Central Coast Bears
Christchurch Bulls (could use a better nickname)
Wellington Orcas
Adelaide Rams (could use a better nickname)
Central Queensland Capras (could use a better nickname)
PNG Hunters (have shown it can work in QLD Cup)

There are a number of issues that would need working out for a system like this to be successful. I am well aware this is far from the perfect solution and am curios to hear others thoughts, criticism and solutions to the system and potential problems.

 

[Perth Red]

The problem will be the massive gap between divisions in revenue and subsequently squad strength.

A better solution, Imo, would be to have a stronger second tier of reserve grades plus others, Sydney clubs playing ten home games and taking the other two to non NRL cities. All warriors games to be played in NZ and expansion to 18 with a Perth and Brisbane club added.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

P&R isnt a bad idea (it keeps the comp exciting), but basing wholly it on on-field results...

Id like to see a P&R best on fan support; a team is promoted if they can get together ARLC-sanctioned memberships than the club they are trying to overthrow. It would force clubs to focus absolutely on fan interest and it would give cranky fans (Eg. Bears fans) an avenue to direct their energy that actually benefits the game as a whole.

If this was instituted, the ARLC would have a far easier time producing the best speard of team. They could have some licences limited to a location (1 in Brisbane, 1 in Newcastle, 1 in Melbourne, 3 in ANZ, etc) then maybe 3 or 4 of the licences allowed to float (if there is genuinely enough support for a suburban team to keep Perth out then this proves it).

I definitely think the quarantined nature of the NRL (the 16 teams have nothing to worry about regardless of how shit they are) is a part of the malaise that has fallen over the NRL. I think fans are really beginning to understand that they results dont matter all that much....

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

The problem will be the massive gap between divisions in revenue and subsequently squad strength.

A better solution, Imo, would be to have a stronger second tier of reserve grades plus others, Sydney clubs playing ten home games and taking the other two to non NRL cities. All warriors games to be played in NZ and expansion to 18 with a Perth and Brisbane club added.

With the NRL over seeing both divisions the revenue would be shared however there would be squad depth issues especially in the first few years. I would like to think the salary cap being the same level for all teams and the NRL giving the competition the necessary exposure would see 2nd division teams still have access to good players. This is another reason why there needs to be a strong link between the local area and the club.

I would prefer to see cities have there own team than get a couple of games That way an Adelaide or Perth can build a fan base in the second division and potentially compete in the NRL.

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

P&R isnt a bad idea (it keeps the comp exciting), but basing wholly it on on-field results...

Id like to see a P&R best on fan support; a team is promoted if they can get together ARLC-sanctioned memberships than the club they are trying to overthrow. It would force clubs to focus absolutely on fan interest and it would give cranky fans (Eg. Bears fans) an avenue to direct their energy that actually benefits the game as a whole.

If this was instituted, the ARLC would have a far easier time producing the best speard of team. They could have some licences limited to a location (1 in Brisbane, 1 in Newcastle, 1 in Melbourne, 3 in ANZ, etc) then maybe 3 or 4 of the licences allowed to float (if there is genuinely enough support for a suburban team to keep Perth out then this proves it).

I definitely think the quarantined nature of the NRL (the 16 teams have nothing to worry about regardless of how shit they are) is a part of the malaise that has fallen over the NRL. I think fans are really beginning to understand that they results dont matter all that much....

I like the emphasis on the fans to support them team and your idea reminds me of licensing in the English Super League. I worry this system does have the potential for cheating or favouritism with what teams get in and fans being disheartened from losing there team unfairly. We have also seen at Souths the relationship between membership numbers and crowds isn't always correct.

One of the reasons licensing was done away with was clubs and there fans didn't think it was far. Especially after Wakefield were kept in the comp over Halifax who had a better stadium and facilities etc.

 

[siv]

Its a interesting idea on how to make Tier 2 relevant

But it will mean NRL players 17-36 can't play for Tier 2 clubs

I would initially promote the winners of NSW Cup and QLD Cup and make it a 18 team competition

Then a 4 way 3 round robin series each year at the wooden spooners home ground

Between wooden spoon team, NSW Cup winners QLD Cup winners and NZ Cup winners

Winner joins the Top 18 elite teams

Just like in England funding levels will be a issue not to mention player contracts

There already is a funding gap of $7 mil to $350k. Even though technically there is no Tier 2 salary cap

It would only work if there is no salary cap

 

[CC_Roosters]

I have been experimenting of a competition structure to expand the NRL. I have come up with a promotion and relegation system. All teams in both divisons will play under the same salary cap and I see a lot of potential in a system like this to service and grow the sport in both Australia and New Zealand. Two 12 team competitions that will have teams throughout Australia, New Zealand and PNG. Two teams will be promoted and two will be relegated each season.

Even 22 rounds where every team plays each other home and away. Plus 3 rep rounds for Origin and Internationals. NSW Cup and QLD Cup can remain as feeder clubs. How junior development is managed is up for debate however the desire is for a newcastle junior to filter through to the Knights or a WA junior to filter through the Pirates etc.

NRL Premiership
Cronulla Sharks
Melbourne Storm
North Queensland Cowboys
Canberra Raiders
Canterbury Bulldogs
Brisbane Broncos
Gold Coast Titans
Penrith Panthers
St George Illawarra Dragons
Auckland Warriors
Wests Tigers
Manly Sea Eagles

NRL Championship
Parramatta Eels
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Sydney Roosters
Newcastle Knights
West Coast Pirates
Brisbane Jets (Merger of the Ipswich Jets and Brisbane Bombers bids. Jets based on Southside, Broncos Northside)
Central Coast Bears
Christchurch Bulls (could use a better nickname)
Wellington Orcas
Adelaide Rams (could use a better nickname)
Central Queensland Capras (could use a better nickname)
PNG Hunters (have shown it can work in QLD Cup)

There are a number of issues that would need working out for a system like this to be successful. I am well aware this is far from the perfect solution and am curios to hear others thoughts, criticism and solutions to the system and potential problems.

Agree 100% this this this

I have been harping on about this for a year now on this forum, its the only to engage the entire country while at the same time giving the professional league(s) integrity. The existing clubs can all find their level and rise and fall between the leagues as their fortunes allow, instead of trying to fit 16 or clubs into a closed off single league and expect some sort of utopia of equality to occur.

It would be a 10-20 year project to acheive 24 teams but i feel that 2 leagues of 10 in the same structure is very acheievble in under 5-8years. We numerous areas clamouring for teams, while the current licence holders are clearly bumbling along in mediocracy with no consequences to poor form and therefore have little motivation to push boundaries in crowds and memberships.

Many who don't understand the concept say you cant promote and reegate from the state cups to the NRL, but that 100% not even in question. It has to be a two tiered closed pyramid i.e NRL and NRL2 as you have described, while the state cups maintain there status as reserve/development leagues.

How good would a regular season with meaning at both ends of the table be! imagine the tension on the final day of the season if 3 or 4 clubs need results to avoid the drop and then in the 2nd tier think of how great a first past the post league winner could be for promotion. And then a promotion playoff for the second spot the week before the grand final!

IMO initially expand to 18 teams with the a side in Brisbane and Perth. Then expand to 20 teams with a side in NZ an CC bears and have a single season of a 20 team NRL, the next season would be split into the two divisions based on ladder position.

Sides 21-24 are a little more tricky and should embrace new and existing areas. There are arguments for Central queensland, Brisbane 3, NZ 3, Adelaide, PNG,

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

Its a interesting idea on how to make Tier 2 relevant

But it will mean NRL players 17-36 can't play for Tier 2 clubs

I would initially promote the winners of NSW Cup and QLD Cup and make it a 18 team competition

Then a 4 way 3 round robin series each year at the wooden spooners home ground

Between wooden spoon team, NSW Cup winners QLD Cup winners and NZ Cup winners

Winner joins the Top 18 elite teams

Just like in England funding levels will be a issue not to mention player contracts

There already is a funding gap of $7 mil to $350k. Even though technically there is no Tier 2 salary cap

It would only work if there is no salary cap

The problem with promoting NSW/QLD Cup winners is they are affiliated or otherwise named like a NRL team. With the top division dropping to 12 teams there will be in theory at least 4 teams worth of NRL standard players in the second division which will grow over time. Player contracts could be an issue to start, however funding would be different to the super league as the NRL will divide the funding equally. I believe the salary cap will work best with the system so it stops a EPL type situation. The English system is changing the system this year to allow all teams in there divisions to spend to the full salary cap

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

Agree 100% this this this

Many who don't understand the concept say you cant promote and reegate from the state cups to the NRL, but that 100% not even in question. It has to be a two tiered closed pyramid i.e NRL and NRL2 as you have described, while the state cups maintain there status as reserve/development leagues. ,

I agree with what you have added in particular people not understanding the a pro/relegation system. For it to have success it has to be a closed system with the NRL overseeing the comps.

 

[siv]

The problem with promoting NSW/QLD Cup winners is they are affiliated or otherwise named like a NRL team. With the top division dropping to 12 teams there will be in theory at least 4 teams worth of NRL standard players in the second division which will grow over time. Player contracts could be an issue to start, however funding would be different to the super league as the NRL will divide the funding equally. I believe the salary cap will work best with the system so it stops a EPL type situation. The English system is changing the system this year to allow all teams in there divisions to spend to the full salary cap

My answer to this statement

National RG

Then setup NSW Cup properly by including NSW Country divisions North Coast, New England, Western Div and Riverina, Perth and Adelaide

Once setup in 5 years we do a formal promotion of the 17th and 18th teams

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

My answer to this statement

National RG

Then setup NSW Cup properly by including NSW Country divisions North Coast, New England, Western Div and Riverina, Perth and Adelaide

Once setup in 5 years we do a formal promotion of the 17th and 18th teams

I agree with you that NSW Cup badly needs a presence in the country I disagree that putting Perth and Adelaide in the NSW Cup would work. There is a massive difference between having a team in Perth or Adelaide fighting to be in the NRL against other professional teams and them playing semi pro teams in what should be a development style competition. Can't see a WA and Adelaide team work in the same comp as country NSW sides

 

[siv]

I agree with you that NSW Cup badly needs a presence in the country I disagree that putting Perth and Adelaide in the NSW Cup would work. There is a massive difference between having a team in Perth or Adelaide fighting to be in the NRL against other professional teams and them playing semi pro teams in what should be a development style competition. Can't see a WA and Adelaide team work in the same comp as country NSW sides

My reply

NSW Cup should not be development competition. Just as RM Cup is a competition in its own right

Thats the role of National RG and National U20s

Take the big NRL money out if the Tier 2 comp and then everyone in Tier 2 is on a level playing field

But you highlight the findamental problem

Reserve Grade development v a independent Tier 2 Competition

I would two solutions not one to this delema

 

[CC_Roosters]

I agree with you that NSW Cup badly needs a presence in the country I disagree that putting Perth and Adelaide in the NSW Cup would work. There is a massive difference between having a team in Perth or Adelaide fighting to be in the NRL against other professional teams and them playing semi pro teams in what should be a development style competition. Can't see a WA and Adelaide team work in the same comp as country NSW sides

I tend to agree with you, I don't see perth and Adelaide being sustainable in a reserve competition. More likely one could be competitive in an expanded two tier NRL but that's as far as I see it going in those cities.

Siv. if it was a 2 tiered NRL with 20/24 teams their would not be the resources or depth to have a national RG and u20's as well.

 

[siv]

Wenty & Mounties and a few others run a reggies team in RM Cup. So it can be done. But maybe limited to U20s like in Brisbane

I would however have all teams play U16 U18 in the same 9 round juniors comp not separated by Tiers

 

[BuderusIsaBeast]

Junior Development is the hardest issue to address whether your talking about this system or the current day NRL. I like the idea of the 24 elite teams maintaing an under 20's team to attract and bring through the best young talent. However what you would do with the 16's and 18's is difficult. I like your idea Siv of them only being a short 9 round competition. I like the idea of the NRL fun sign the junior development but the players still pull on a elite teams jersey so they can move through the grades

 

[alien]

If they were going to have 2 comps using a promotion/relegation system, it should be 2 comps of 12 teams. You would play every team in your comp twice - so there would be 22 rounds, and keep the rep footy (including origin) until after the season.

The 24 teams would be the current NRL clubs, and include Perth, Adelaide, NSW Central Coast Bears, Brisbane 2, Christchurch, Wellington, PNG, and a Pacific team that represents and plays their home games in Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, and Cook Islands.

 

[alien]

double post

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

How is this for a half-way compromise...

Create a division system that allows every team the opportunity to compete in the GF, but the structure is heavily weighted to favour Division A.

Teams in Division B are competing to get into Division A, so that NEXT YEAR they will have a better shot. But this still holding onto the slim hope that they could go straight into the GF.

This wouldnt allow the same elasticity P&R fans would be looking for (the divisions would be just as strictly quarantined as the NRL is now) but it would give the comp a sense of longer term progress. Rather than "every year is a fresh start", we have "This year Division A, next year the big finals run"...

 

[Perth Red]

How would you fund an extra 12 or so clubs to the level that they had any hope of being competitive if they got promotion? or do you want to see the old English RL system where players, on mass, leave relegated clubs whilst the promoted club has to do a speed job to try and recruit enough talent to survive promotion? Unless you have either A) a massive promotion $ bonus like EPL or B) Two divisions very very close in quality and revenue you will end up with yoyo clubs and the novelty soon wears off.

RL is a very unforgiving game, a 10%difference in standard between teams can lead to a 40point gap on the field.

 

[Perth Red]

Maybe two competitions, fixed leagues but potential for championship team to go up if and when premiership is expanded or a club in there fails. Premiership clubs would have a reserve grade, scrap the Under20's. Teams chosen initially to expand the game and deal with NSW over crowding that is stunting growth of game and based on fanbase of existing clubs This would give 10 NSW, 3 NZ , 5 Qlnd Clubs, 1 PNG, 1 WA, 1 Vic, 1 ACT, 1 SA. 20 game comp with a Challenge Cup knock out comp featuring both divisions and a club Nines featuring both

NRL Premiership
Auckland Warriors
Wellington Orcas
West Coast Pirates
Melbourne Storm
Canberra Raiders
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Newcastle Knights
Canterbury Bulldogs
Parramatta Eels
Brisbane Broncos
Gold Coast Titans
NQ Cowboys


NRL Championship
Wests Tigers
Cronulla Sharks
Sydney Roosters
Penrith Panthers
Central Coast Bears
Brisbane Bombers
CQ Bulls
PNG Hunters
Christchurch Hawks
Darwin Crocs
St George Dragons
Adelaide Rams

You could substitute Raiders for another Sydney club if 4 were felt to be needed.