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OT: Current Affairs and Politics

Gary Gutful

Post Whore
Messages
51,912
Tis true but I don’t actually care that much. My problem is more with those that are strongly anti-climate change.



Derps on head

#throwsboardongroundandrubsyourfaceinit
As traumatic as it was I am still relieved. There are far worse things that you could have rubbed my face in.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
weren't they saying in the 80's that the hole in the ozone layer would kill us all?

now they never mention it so bring back cfc's
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
74,061
weren't they saying in the 80's that the hole in the ozone layer would kill us all?

now they never mention it so bring back cfc's

CFCs came down as science predicted.

images


The incidence rate of melanoma rose also as predicted, however the mortality rate stabilised with advancement in medicine.

E4C58510-49A7-424B-A7A1-F2C2BA300AC0.jpeg
 

Bandwagon

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
41,984
Let me spell it out a little bit for Gronky and pals...I'm going to use a thing called...wait for it...logic.

I know, fellas...it's not something you're used to using. Just calm down and stay with me.

What you do first is remove the carbon dioxide tracking and just look at the temperature by itself. Then you ask a question: Is there a pattern here? Do we see a trend in the temperature data by itself?

The answer is yes - 30 year intervals, as I have already laid out.

Now, put the carbon dioxide trend back in and ask a second question: At what point could the rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide begin to influence the temperature graph?

Here are some possible answers:
1) 1980 - (Based on there being a lag between carbon dioxide introduction and influence) Unfortunately, this then rules out anthropogenic climate change, because we see that the trend has existed prior to the theoretical carbon dioxide influence and does not change after that. If the existing trend stays the same then carbon dioxide had no influence;

2) Well, then, 1940!!! - (Based on there being no lag, in order to try and consume as much of the non-carbon trend as possible to sway the trend in favour of carbon dioxide influence and establish some kind of argument) Unfortunately, we still have the problem of 1880-1910 and 1910-1940 that establishes the trend. In addition, however, no lag (and an immediate effect) is automatically killed by the fact that temperature drops from 1940, and does so again around 2000. This doesn't work, then, either;

3) Since 1880 - (In order to try and say that the entire trend is carbon influenced). Well, there wasn't enough of an increase between 1880 and 1920 to produce the 1920-1940 rise, so that's out of the question. And, if you still want to attribute the 1910-1940 rise to carbon (in order to salvage some kind of argument) then this falls apart when you see the 1970-2000 rise mirrors the 1910-1940 rise in scope, despite a significant increase in carbon. For this last possibility to be true, the 1970-2000 would have had to be significantly bigger, considering the significant difference in the 1880-1910 and 1940-1970 carbon dioxide levels. Unfortunately, this doesn't play out the way you would like it to, so this theory is gone, as well.

So, using ONLY the data that YOU provided, it is CLEAR that there is no way to attribute the 1970-2000 temperature increase to rising anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions. At NO POINT can a trend be established that would illustrate causality.

But I'm cherry picking, right? I'm doing that by...using YOUR DATA, and doing so, in what must obviously be a bigoted way, IN ITS ENTIRETY.

In conclusion - #OrangeManBad.

Case closed, bigots.

Ok, let's have a little look at the logic here, we'll use your logic, and we'll expand on it somewhat in order to attempt to reconcile that which you argue with that which you omit.

We'll accept that we can break down the graph presented into the time frames you choose, and remove the effects of co2 for the moment. As you say, we can see periods of time where the temperature goes up, and the temperature goes down, so what that tells us is there is a variability in climate over certain timescales.

Using our logic, we can deduce that there must be forcings at work that create this variability, what they are of course we can not deduce from this graph, as we only have the two measurements at hand, but given we accept the data, we must also accept these forcings exist.

Now, bearing that in mind let's look at the graph in it's entirety, what do we see? What we see is that overall the average temperature has risen. Which again using our logic we can only deduce that for each of these periods of cooling, we have periods of warming that result in the average temperature rising beyond that of the previous period of warming, so over the entire timescale of the graph we see an accumulated overall rise in temperature.

So where does that logically lead us?

Well, we have logically deduced that there is a variability in climate, we have logically deduced that this variability must be created by some force or forces, and we have logically deduced that that given over all the temperature has risen, there is not equilibrium in these forces, or if you like cycles.

Thus we can logically deduce that there must be forces outside of the forces that create these cycles that result in increases of temperature over a longer cycle. So if we return the co2 levels back to our graph, and we note that there is an acceleration of temperature rises between these cycles that ( roughly ) corresponds with the accelerated accumulation of co2 in our atmosphere, we have correlation. A correlation that exists alongside a variability that takes into account that the data tells us that co2 is not the only driver of that variability.

You'll note I have chosen not to confuse correlation with causation, ( or causality as you put it ) because a simple graph can not prove anything but indicate a correlation, causation must be proved by other means, such as that we know co2 is a greenhouse gas.
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
59,200
The things we need to do to reduce emissions can start small.

Public transport when can, fuel efficient cars, car pool...

Use a fan when can, dont leave air cons on while put just so house is cool when first aalk in.

Dont buy plastic junk for sake of a silly present.

Hand things down you dont use.

Buy quality items that will last long time.

Batch cook
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
99,884
The things we need to do to reduce emissions can start small.

Public transport when can, fuel efficient cars, car pool...

Use a fan when can, dont leave air cons on while put just so house is cool when first aalk in.

Dont buy plastic junk for sake of a silly present.

Hand things down you dont use.

Buy quality items that will last long time.

Batch cook

Eat fewer legumes...
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
74,061
Oh look, another MP who was a vocal no proponent in the same sex marriage plebiscite (citing the sanctity of marriage) has gone to the wall.


 
Messages
14,143
Banning CFC's worked the hole in the Ozone Layer has shrunk. Still there but the world is trying to heal itself.

As for Carbon monoxide in the air, smoke, smog, methane all that sort of shit, we need to bring an end to that. I lived near the sea for the first 3 years of my life, not a thing wrong with my lungs, I move to Western Sydney and at 4 have my first asthma attack. My brother born in Western Sydney has far worse asthma than I and started having attacks early in his life till later in his life.

All that because of the pollution and smog from industry in and around the area we moved to.

This is what we need to fix. Less Smoke, Less Smog, Less burning stuff.

We need to find a way to make energy without causing smoke and smog for Public health.

The VW issue. I am sure you have all heard about what they did with their defeat device in the computers of diesel powered cars. It has been calculated that the excess pollution caused by VW might have caused 106 deaths because of the excess pollution.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/upshot/how-many-deaths-did-volkswagens-deception-cause-in-us.html
 
Messages
11,677
Ok, let's have a little look at the logic here, we'll use your logic, and we'll expand on it somewhat in order to attempt to reconcile that which you argue with that which you omit.

We'll accept that we can break down the graph presented into the time frames you choose, and remove the effects of co2 for the moment. As you say, we can see periods of time where the temperature goes up, and the temperature goes down, so what that tells us is there is a variability in climate over certain timescales.

Using our logic, we can deduce that there must be forcings at work that create this variability, what they are of course we can not deduce from this graph, as we only have the two measurements at hand, but given we accept the data, we must also accept these forcings exist.

Now, bearing that in mind let's look at the graph in it's entirety, what do we see? What we see is that overall the average temperature has risen. Which again using our logic we can only deduce that for each of these periods of cooling, we have periods of warming that result in the average temperature rising beyond that of the previous period of warming, so over the entire timescale of the graph we see an accumulated overall rise in temperature.

So where does that logically lead us?

Well, we have logically deduced that there is a variability in climate, we have logically deduced that this variability must be created by some force or forces, and we have logically deduced that that given over all the temperature has risen, there is not equilibrium in these forces, or if you like cycles.

Thus we can logically deduce that there must be forces outside of the forces that create these cycles that result in increases of temperature over a longer cycle. So if we return the co2 levels back to our graph, and we note that there is an acceleration of temperature rises between these cycles that ( roughly ) corresponds with the accelerated accumulation of co2 in our atmosphere, we have correlation. A correlation that exists alongside a variability that takes into account that the data tells us that co2 is not the only driver of that variability.

You'll note I have chosen not to confuse correlation with causation, ( or causality as you put it ) because a simple graph can not prove anything but indicate a correlation, causation must be proved by other means, such as that we know co2 is a greenhouse gas.

We can "deduce" (how do i do those stupid air quote emojis?) that the temperature trend (30/30/30/30/30) does not change, no matter where you try to insert carbon dioxide as an influencer. We can "deduce" that carbon dioxide, therefore, does not influence global temperatures (not enough to make an impression on the graph, anyways).

That's it. That's all you need to know.
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
78,623
It has no credibility without emojis ... when you learn how to do em we might take you seriously
 
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