Steven Kearney's big conundrum...

[shiznit]

I agree with the majority of what you've said mate, but judging him on 'being terrible every time he plays for Maori' is harsh and exactly what you were berating Westie about RE Foran. He's only played for them twice hasn't he? Wrong to judge him on only 2 performances.

which was the point i was making... i was saying that using his logic... you would judge Rangi Chase on his games for the Maori...

 

[westie]

If you judged him on his latest rep game, against England... he has a nice little MOM trophy. Which would probably go some way to proving my point about waiting until players are ready to play at the highest level.

 

[shiznit]

I sound like a Wests Tigers fan who thought Chase was an over rated glory hog who didn't want to do the hard work to become what he should have been and wanted him gone.

Now, I sound like someone who has actually watched him. He's first class. Really, really good.

:lol: weve been watching Rangi Chase years before he even made his FG debut at the tigers.

hes going very well... but he is handicapped by the fact he isnt playing in the NRL. im not saying he cant make it... i think he is in the mix... but to put him ahead of Foran is nonsense.

As mentioned, those are the same guys who rated Mortimer as the next Aussie half. The only one I really trust is Gould, and he's said he won't come good for a while yet.

an excerpt from a Phil Gould article... http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...a-eagles-to-higher-ground-20110710-1h909.html

Enter young five-eighth Kieran Foran. Regular readers of this column will know the high regard with which I hold this young man. Foran has all the skills necessary to make him a creative playmaker of the highest order. He can pass inside or outside with equal effect. He can utilise the long pass or the short pass to prise open opposition defensive lines.

He is prepared to charge into the line at full tilt or take a late hit from a defender to get the result he wants. He has great vision and impeccable awareness. His decision-making processes are second to none.

But there's something else. He has this ''oomph'' factor. He has an ability to impose himself on the game when it's needed most. He doesn't wait for others to take the lead. He believes he can will anything to happen on the football field - and he generally does.

Earlier this season he lifted Manly to win games where they looked to be struggling. He did so by throwing himself at opponents in defence with inspiring courage. He would then back it up in attack with scintillating attacking plays.

Yesterday, I sensed the body was weak - probably fatigued and carrying injury - but his mind was strong. He couldn't have the impact he would like when he tackled. However, in possession of the ball he became a giant.

This kid is a winner. He scored two crucial, solo tries at a critical point in the game to give his side the lead. These tries were nothing more than an example of one man's will becoming an irresistible force too great for his opponent to contain.

Once Foran had led the way, his teammates followed. Manly raised the stakes in the physicality of the contest. Souths then surrendered meekly as they usually do in these situations. The game was over.

Souths again showed potential with some nice attacking raids. However, their submissive defensive line just doesn't put enough pressure on opposition attacking games.
The outside backs for Souths are always in retreat mode - even close to their own goal line. Yesterday they allowed Brett Stewart and Foran to run over the top of them from close range to score. You can't consistently win games in the NRL defending like that. It's football suicide.

Manly, however, have skill and grunt. They also have Kieran Foran to remind them of the importance of a winning attitude. It's a nice mix.

yeah.. sounds like gus reckons he's not ready... :roll:

If we followed my logic, Benji would have been held back from club and international football til he was ready. Just as Foran should be.

says who??

All we can say is that Benji Marshall is the player he is today because of the experience's he's had in the game... which includes his test football experience.

who's to say Benji have developed as well as he has if he wasn't exposed to Test football when he was... and more importantly... who's to say Benji would even be playing for the Kiwi's if he wasn't capped when he was...

I agree the Anzac test is a harder test, but it was laughable sitting at Melbourne a few years back watching him. He had time and space and could only keep kicking the ball back to Slater. He, so far, doesn't suit what the Kiwis do. I think he's calmer style of play may be useful down the track, but only when he's REALLY good at it.

That first ANZAC test was his first test in the Halves for NZ... and against Australia... give the kid some slack. I remember Darren Lockyer's test debut... it was the worst game i have ever seen him play... thankfully they didn't use your logic and throw him on the scrap heap.

And this years ANZAC test... he wasn't any worse than Benji... infact i remember his Banana Kick to set up a Lance Hohaia's try more than anything Benji did.

so i dont know why Foran somehow cops the blame...

Tell me, is Foran going to outpoint Lockyer and Thurston in a war of attrition like he does at Manly? I'd be surprised if you thought yes.

you just answered your own question nimrod... :lol:

he does it week in week out for Manly... which is what you select him in the team for.

The Kiwis take the game to the Aussies... that just isn't Foran's style of play.

Says who??

In the World Cup Final we came back from 10-0 and were very lucky not to be 16-0... so we started slow...

in and the 4 Nations final last year we came back to steal the game at the death... so once again your wrong... :lol:

Pat Richards is probably the best Winger in the world at the moment, apart from Vatuvei when he's on song. He was devastating in winning an NRL premiership with one leg. He's a thousand times better at the moment.

Says who?? after the dribble ive seen from you id hardly wanna take your word for it...

 

[Didgi]

Uate > Richards for a start. And in the last Month-ish he's been outplayed somewhat by Charnley.

Richards is definitely up there, he's brilliant in the air and as a finisher and offers plenty with his kicking, but I wouldn't have him as the best at the moment.

 

[Didgi]

Oh... am I the only one who thinks "Steven Kearney's big face" whenever I see this thread?

 

[westie]

:lol: weve been watching Rangi Chase years before he even made his FG debut at the tigers.

hes going very well... but he is handicapped by the fact he isnt playing in the NRL. im not saying he cant make it... i think he is in the mix... but to put him ahead of Foran is nonsense.



an excerpt from a Phil Gould article... http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...a-eagles-to-higher-ground-20110710-1h909.html


yeah.. sounds like gus reckons he's not ready... :roll:



says who??

All we can say is that Benji Marshall is the player he is today because of the experience's he's had in the game... which includes his test football experience.

who's to say Benji have developed as well as he has if he wasn't exposed to Test football when he was... and more importantly... who's to say Benji would even be playing for the Kiwi's if he wasn't capped when he was...



That first ANZAC test was his first test in the Halves for NZ... and against Australia... give the kid some slack. I remember Darren Lockyer's test debut... it was the worst game i have ever seen him play... thankfully they didn't use your logic and throw him on the scrap heap.

And this years ANZAC test... he wasn't any worse than Benji... infact i remember his Banana Kick to set up a Lance Hohaia's try more than anything Benji did.

so i dont know why Foran somehow cops the blame...



you just answered your own question nimrod... :lol:

he does it week in week out for Manly... which is what you select him in the team for.



Says who??

In the World Cup Final we came back from 10-0 and were very lucky not to be 16-0... so we started slow...

in and the 4 Nations final last year we came back to steal the game at the death... so once again your wrong... :lol:



Says who?? after the dribble ive seen from you id hardly wanna take your word for it...

Gould's first par confirmed what I thought. He has the ingredients to MAKE a fine footballer.

I reckon Benji would have developed more with another 2-3 years of football under his belt, which he missed being used too early. But that's perhaps a WT point of view though. Benji is also on a completely different planet to Foran. Not even the same galaxy.

I'm sure you don't, so I won't insinuate you're actually silly enough to suggest that Foran will experience the same platform and system playing for the Kiwis that he does for Manly. It's a completely different structure. Anytime he's played for the Kiwis, he's tried the same boring football he plays at Manly. He hasn't suited them in the past, and as you mention with the WC Final and 4N, they generally need to go out and score explosive trys of the back of instinct players. Trying to kick and grind against the Aussies will go the same way as it always has when he's tried it.

If he can surprise me, change his game and fit into the Kiwi style of play, then sure. I just don't think he can. He plays Aussie football, but he's not good enough for them either, so I don't get it.

 

[westie]

Might I add, it seems to me you've not even watched the footballers you're comparing him to.

 

[shiznit]

Gould's first par confirmed what I thought. He has the ingredients to MAKE a fine footballer.

WTF?? you read that whole article in you think Phil Gould doesnt think he's ready??

your getting pwned so now your just making up bullshit... :lol:

I reckon Benji would have developed more with another 2-3 years of football under his belt, which he missed being used too early. But that's perhaps a WT point of view though. Benji is also on a completely different planet to Foran. Not even the same galaxy.

Your opinion of course... which as you've shown... doesn't count for much

I'm sure you don't, so I won't insinuate you're actually silly enough to suggest that Foran will experience the same platform and system playing for the Kiwis that he does for Manly. It's a completely different structure. Anytime he's played for the Kiwis, he's tried the same boring football he plays at Manly. He hasn't suited them in the past, and as you mention with the WC Final and 4N, they generally need to go out and score explosive trys of the back of instinct players. Trying to kick and grind against the Aussies will go the same way as it always has when he's tried it.

If he can surprise me, change his game and fit into the Kiwi style of play, then sure. I just don't think he can. He plays Aussie football, but he's not good enough for them either, so I don't get it.

This here shows that you have NFI about what your talking about...

I bet you just follow the same old stereotype that the only way the Kiwis will beat Australia is for the 'Big Kiwi Forwards' to roll over the top of the Aussie pack and we need to play some form of high risk football to blow Australia off the park... :roll:

if you actually knew what you were talking about you would realise that the reason why the Kiwis have won those 2 finals was because they got Australia into the grind.

if you actually knew what you were talking about you would also know that there game plan is based on bringing Australia into the grind... to make them crack under pressure.

Having a partner in the halves who plays with structure actually suits the kiwis far more than having 2 halves who play with not a lot of structure.

And of course he wouldn't make the Kangraoo's if he was Australian... they have Thurston, Lockyer, Cronk etc...

If Foran was Australian he would have played Origin this season...

NZ only have Benji Marshall... so unfortunately we cant afford not to use a player of Forans talent.

 

[shiznit]

Might I add, it seems to me you've not even watched the footballers you're comparing him to.

what footballers have i compared him to?

 

[doogiehowser_md]

matt orford won the dally M medal in 2008...thats gotta take some gloss off the award.....:lol:
:lol:

He was a great player before he went off to that sh*t competiton in the northern hemisphere and became lazy.

 

[doogiehowser_md]

Having a partner in the halves who plays with structure actually suits the kiwis far more than having 2 halves who play with not a lot of structure.

I agree wholeheartedly with this and is the number 1 reason why I dont want to see a Chase/Marshall halves combo. Foran and Fien provide structure and stability to allow Marshall to be the gamebreaker.

 

[doogiehowser_md]

Is this the same Rangi Chase that was man of the match as he led a bunch of patched together Exiles to a win over a near strength England earlier this year?

I love the 'but isn't [insert former NRL player] a star in the ESL' line. Pat Richards is prolific in the Wigan backline. He was good over here and is good in England.

Yes we are talking abouth the same Rangi Chase, yes he was the man of the match. If he was in a "best of the rest" that had a 33 year old George Carmont carving up, against a near full strength England side doesn't prove how good of a player Chase is. It merely shows how sh*t England is!

Yes Pat Richards was good over here but he is great in the ESL. Don't even get me started on Chicken George.

 

[doogiehowser_md]

Pat Richards is probably the best Winger in the world at the moment, apart from Vatuvei when he's on song.

Is that you Billy Hohepa?

 

[hitman82]

Hmm, yeah so I'd pick Locke over Hoffman atm. Hoffman's damn good but Locke is a better all round fullback in my opinion.

The OT Chase vs Foran debate is hilarious though!

 

[doogiehowser_md]

Oh... am I the only one who thinks "Steven Kearney's big face" whenever I see this thread?

Dunno bout big face but he does have an unusually wide mouth and a striking jaw line!

 

[Tommax25]

These guys are trolling surely? How can they even begin to argue Chase is better than Foran? It boggles the mind. Is this really happening? If Chase was so good every club in Australia (and NZ) would be making offers to bring him back to the premier competition. The fact that they are not knocking down his door speaks volumes.

 

[Wheeled Warrior]

Is Hoffman still making himself available for the Kiwis? Hopefully someone will talk some sense into him before it's too late!!

They did thats why he playing for the Kiwis

Who wants play in State Of Origin these days when it NOT the pinnacle of League anymore - Internationals will be the BIGGIE esp Aus vs NZ

If you disagree then thats too bad, you will wake up sooner or later

 

[Didgi]

These guys are trolling surely? How can they even begin to argue Chase is better than Foran? It boggles the mind. Is this really happening? If Chase was so good every club in Australia (and NZ) would be making offers to bring him back to the premier competition. The fact that they are not knocking down his door speaks volumes.

Yeah, unfortunately there's the small matter of him having a contract with Castleford :roll:

 

[shiznit]

Yeah, unfortunately there's the small matter of him having a contract with Castleford :roll:

Like Dallas Johnson's contract with Catalans... :roll:

 

[Didgi]

Maybe Castleford don't want to release Chase :roll:

Maybe Chase is happy at Castleford :roll: