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Cagey Mac

Bench
Messages
4,005
I agree with most of what you said except u left Aah Mah out who has been our best forward. I think Price will start Quinlan at fullback and leave Beale to learn centre as Beale was never really a fullback and that's Quinlans position. Matautai will be in the picture after playing 60mins for the cutters then came on and scored 2 tries for us.

Smith, Brown & Sheens probably better options as coach but I still think we have to wait til round 7 unless we lose the 1st 4 games

Apologies to Leeson
There may be diddums issues with Beale if not selected at one but essentially I agree.
Quinlan's utility value in 2014 may see him get a lot of game time IMO
 

TheRev

Coach
Messages
12,934
I'm sure our attack will get better.It's the same poor defence and lack of discipline which we haven't addressed which worries me.Especially as it was the first real hitout I was hoping our defence would have benn more enthusiastic.
Yep definitely.. especially since many of them are playing for a Top 17 position come Round 1.

However.. conversely it was a huge bench, Beale was missing, Price was experimenting, I mean it cant be easy to form combinations when the roster keeps shifting.

I expect the Defence too get better in a real game, but we need some wins to get our confidence and enthusiasm up and running, help the boys bond.
 

Mr Red

First Grade
Messages
6,193
all these people saying our pack is too small - i dont buy into it..
sure we dont have a 115kg monster which would be handy but we are hardly a small pack..
Creagh - 103kg
Hunt - 106kg
stockwell - 105kg
Merrin - 103kg
DeBelin - 107kg
AH Mau - 111kg
Harrison - 103kg
Frizzel - 103kg
Groat - 112kg

thompson the smallest of them at 101kg - and thats because he often plays centre as well..

i dont think its as much as "we are too small" i thinks it more that the big guys dont play like they are big guys - they run soft and tackle soft... simply not playing with the aggression or intimidation factor that you need the forwards to play with.....

i have long been a Ben Creagh fan - but seriously if we expect him to play prop this season he needs to take a bottle of angry pills...way too soft for my liking..
 

Cagey Mac

Bench
Messages
4,005
Yep definitely.. especially since many of them are playing for a Top 17 position come Round 1.

However.. conversely it was a huge bench, Beale was missing, Price was experimenting, I mean it cant be easy to form combinations when the roster keeps shifting.

I expect the Defence too get better in a real game, but we need some wins to get our confidence and enthusiasm up and running, help the boys bond.

Unfamiliar and untried back row / centre combinations in defence are always problematic
May take a while do settle in or may not or may not settle at all.

Merrin's a prop IMO too.
 

jenninga

First Grade
Messages
8,545
all these people saying our pack is too small - i dont buy into it..
sure we dont have a 115kg monster which would be handy but we are hardly a small pack..
Creagh - 103kg
Hunt - 106kg
stockwell - 105kg
Merrin - 103kg
DeBelin - 107kg
AH Mau - 111kg
Harrison - 103kg
Frizzel - 103kg
Groat - 112kg

thompson the smallest of them at 101kg - and thats because he often plays centre as well..

i dont think its as much as "we are too small" i thinks it more that the big guys dont play like they are big guys - they run soft and tackle soft... simply not playing with the aggression or intimidation factor that you need the forwards to play with.....

i have long been a Ben Creagh fan - but seriously if we expect him to play prop this season he needs to take a bottle of angry pills...way too soft for my liking..

This is the myth we are fed in Rugby.They go on about having a heavier pack,but it is the strength of the player which is important.The All Black forwards always seem more powerful than the Wallabies pack which is sometimes heavier.
Dan Hunt can be 150 kg but still couldn't break the line,and Creagh,when did he last feel fresh air.
 

big pat

Coach
Messages
10,452
This is the myth we are fed in Rugby.They go on about having a heavier pack,but it is the strength of the player which is important.The All Black forwards always seem more powerful than the Wallabies pack which is sometimes heavier.
Dan Hunt can be 150 kg but still couldn't break the line,and Creagh,when did he last feel fresh air.

creagh is a real worry, he needs to perform better, or maybe retire at years end.
 

watatank

Coach
Messages
14,341
Creagh is not the player he used to be but still good enough to contribute to the team. As it is at the moment, he is our second best forward and our best middle third and ruck defender.
 

pinkmoon

Juniors
Messages
834
This is the myth we are fed in Rugby.They go on about having a heavier pack,but it is the strength of the player which is important.The All Black forwards always seem more powerful than the Wallabies pack which is sometimes heavier.
Dan Hunt can be 150 kg but still couldn't break the line,and Creagh,when did he last feel fresh air.

Correct!

Compare the games of Dan Hunt and Matt Scott at virtually the same weight and height, and get chalk and cheese in terms of performance :shock:
 

TheRev

Coach
Messages
12,934
Creagh is not the player he used to be but still good enough to contribute to the team. As it is at the moment, he is our second best forward and our best middle third and ruck defender.
Yep its his presence and origin/club/premiership experience too, I mean I agree we need him to step up, but I think he will, and he deserves the patience.. hes also rarely injured.

Correct!

Compare the games of Dan Hunt and Matt Scott at virtually the same weight and height, and get chalk and cheese in terms of performance :shock:
That really suprises me.. I just assumed Scott was bigger, it must be raw strength and the aggression to believe you will push through the line.. and keep your feet when you do.

It might be another thing if Hunt got quick play the balls.... because that makes you metres on the next play, but I would say that requires strength too, not to be wrestled onto your back.

Just on this topic.. I know hes a 5/8, but it's what was frustrating me about Soward at the back end of his career, it was obvious he no longer believed he was going to break a tackle, so he stopped running with intent, in his heart he was preparing for the tackle and the next play.
 
Messages
1,564
i dont think its as much as "we are too small" i thinks it more that the big guys dont play like they are big guys - they run soft and tackle soft... simply not playing with the aggression or intimidation factor that you need the forwards to play with.....

I agree.

I think too often we have a forward hitting up with a step.

Since Trent Merrin has decided to be the offloading forward, we don't have the barnstorming forward trying to bust through a defender with strength and driving legs instead of trying to step around a defender. It might be old fashion, but I think that drive is 50% of what "sets the platform" by forwards for attacking momentum, because the defence line has to take one more step backwards to be on side for the play the ball.

JDB might be the exception.
 

kit66

Bench
Messages
4,565
Just on this topic.. I know hes a 5/8, but it's what was frustrating me about Soward at the back end of his career, it was obvious he no longer believed he was going to break a tackle, so he stopped running with intent, in his heart he was preparing for the tackle and the next play.

This was my biggest beef with Dragons sides of the past with this quick play the ball mentality, you'd have big guys like Ryles and Poore hit the line and go straight down on their knees instead of trying to break the line, just ridiculous. One of Brownie's legacies and it's been passed on by players like Hornby and Young, that's probably where Soward picked it up. Hopefully we won't see it this year from the forwards.
 

Cowboys woo

Juniors
Messages
454
Haven't seen much of Cam King, so I'm just asking is he any better than Mitch Rein or any of your other hooker options?
 

BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,383
all these people saying our pack is too small - i dont buy into it..
sure we dont have a 115kg monster which would be handy but we are hardly a small pack..
Creagh - 103kg
Hunt - 106kg
stockwell - 105kg
Merrin - 103kg
DeBelin - 107kg
AH Mau - 111kg
Harrison - 103kg
Frizzel - 103kg
Groat - 112kg

thompson the smallest of them at 101kg - and thats because he often plays centre as well..

i dont think its as much as "we are too small" i thinks it more that the big guys dont play like they are big guys - they run soft and tackle soft... simply not playing with the aggression or intimidation factor that you need the forwards to play with.....

i have long been a Ben Creagh fan - but seriously if we expect him to play prop this season he needs to take a bottle of angry pills...way too soft for my liking..

Trust me, when you weigh 100kg and the bloke running at you is 110kg there is a huge difference. 10kg may not seem much but it is.

There is ways around it in both attack and in defence, it just requires smart play.

Don't get me wrong however, you are right that some hard running at the line will always help. Ailomaoli looks like he doesn't mind throwing his body weight around and running hard.
 
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BrissyRedV

Bench
Messages
4,383
Finally got a chance to see a replay, it was quite a relief because you blokes had me expecting a complete disaster... but it wasnt that bad a performance at all... and dont forget that ive been Price's most passionate hater since Early 2012 (i.e. before it was cool).

This is what I took from the game:

Pro's:
o Our attack: We were more unlucky than usual, several of our tries were denied with freakish last second touches from a Souths defender, and BMoz dropping a sitter from Widdop over the line... we definitely asked more questions than usual, even though we are clearly still very rusty, but we should have scored 12-18 more points.
o Widdop: was fast and dangerous all night, great cut out balls, hes the man our future is built on
o Dugen's injury: means Quinlan gets game-time, a silver lining
o Peter Mata'utai: I need to see his defence, but so nice to see a powerful aggressive centre in our squad (its why Vaivai should have had time in 2013), I keep mentioning this has been our weak spot, im not big on Farrell yet and Runciman is classy but still very much a work in progress, hes not going to hit the ground fending off all comers, hes still a boy.
o Ah Mau: as others mentioned he kept breaking the advantage line, the only player to do so... his size and mongrel has continued from Late 2013.. again just need to see how he handles things defensively, but at worst he comes off the bench as an impact player, tbh we need 1 or 2 big boppers.

Con's:
o Souths without their playmakers: They were without their halves Reynolds/Keary for 80 minutes & fullback Inglis for 40 minutes, yet they still scored a try every time they came up the field, definitely a lot of gelling to do defensively and offensively for us.
o Our Forwards:
----- o Hunt/Creagh: move quickly, but they're pretty small and they didn't really look to push through the defensive line.. more bounce off it.. Creagh brings a lot to the table he's a keeper, but Hunt needs to play out of his skin to retain a spot.
----- o Stockwell/JDB: 2 More players I keep losing in games, they're not plodders by any means, but I lose them in matches, they're doing hitups but they're not particularly aggressive.. it is a trial match though
----- o Thompson: By no means should we judge him on so little football, but I cant help but wonder whether he could be the other dominating centre we need.. depends on beale I think, havent seen him play yet. I dunno just spitballing, lets see a few more games and see who stands up.
o Goalkicking: Early days for Widdop, but he didnt look super comfortable, id suggest hes still working on his technique, im sure he has the skill for it no problems, but hes also got a tonne of other responsibilities i.e. running the entire teams attacking game & our future captain.
o Who plays #7: Williams deserves plenty more time yet but I keep losing him in the game unless im looking specifically to find him 'hey, wtf has williams gone?', I mean Widdop is running the show fair enough, but id like to see more touches, more running at the line. As others said Witt literally touched the ball 2 times, and Stanley well as mentioned hes stuck @ hooker right now.
o Kyle Stanley: This poor kid for the 3rd time now is out of position, hes out to sea @ hooker, surely Garvey is the man if he wants a hooker on the bench, Kyle can throw a nice long ball, but hes not threatening the line and hes in slow motion, telegraphing everything because its not natural to him. Hes also huge now, im really worried hes lost his acceleration, really would like to see him as the Cutters #6 and find out for sure what hes still got, otherwise hes just holding up the development of real players.
o Rein: I watch him with a critical eye thesedays, but hes also incredibly predictable in his running, I just wish Price stuck to giving him 40-50mins tops, use fresh legs, give us some spark, not Kyle though, someone whos going to run forward before passing (garvey or witt)

Conclusion:
Basically its a team trying to gel still, and a couple of bad player selections from Price as per usual, but there is some potential there, we would have liked the team to fire out of the gates, but I can appreciate it might take real 1st grade games to find that form/teamwork. However Price might not be at the helm by that point since he allegedly has a deadline.

Some good points there Rev. It is not all doom and gloom.
 

BennyV

Referee
Messages
25,869
Haven't seen much of Cam King, so I'm just asking is he any better than Mitch Rein or any of your other hooker options?

He's a class above Rein...I've always thought that he was overrated by some on this forum (i believe someone referred to him as future Aus captain material) but if he can get a good run of game time without injuries he will pay dividends - clever, solid in defense, good kicking and passing games.
 

pinkmoon

Juniors
Messages
834
Haven't seen much of Cam King, so I'm just asking is he any better than Mitch Rein or any of your other hooker options?

If he can stay on the field I think he could be anything. I could be wrong, but I think being in and out of the team and warming the bench the rest of the time probably caused some of his injuries. He needed game time to season his body but Price never gave him the opportunity to grow and adapt to the physical demands of first grade.
 

watatank

Coach
Messages
14,341
This was my biggest beef with Dragons sides of the past with this quick play the ball mentality, you'd have big guys like Ryles and Poore hit the line and go straight down on their knees instead of trying to break the line, just ridiculous. One of Brownie's legacies and it's been passed on by players like Hornby and Young, that's probably where Soward picked it up. Hopefully we won't see it this year from the forwards.

If by trying to break the line you mean something like fighting in the tackle then I would have to disagree. A quick play the ball is almost always the priority, the best forwards like the Souths/Roosters forwards everyone mentions can break the line but what makes them really dangerous is that they almost always land on their belly and can get up straight away and get a quick play the ball. Merrin for example fights in every tackle, is easily put on his back and his play the ball is painfully slow.
 
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