Toronto Gone?

[deluded pom?]

Going to be a long process but I don't think English RL can lose this chance to grow.

Wanna bet?

 

[Pommy]

Going to be a long process but I don't think English RL can lose this chance to grow.

lol

 

[Perth Red]

Because Neil would have done the right thing without the furlough scheme wouldn’t he? Leave the bitterness aside mate, you’re embarrassing east Hull.

Are you saying they were paying bills and players on time pre covid? Why would I be bitter? they were our best chance of avoiding relegation before Covid came along lol.

 

[Perth Red]

Yet another great opportunity for RL falls over due to self sabotage and making everything as difficult as possible for them rather.

Although I am still hoping they are back for next year

Hang on this is no-ones fault but Argyle. The RFL admitted them and there was a pathway to the top for them to take. What more do you think the RFL should have done?
The fact the guy clearly cant run a professional sports team and should stick to digging up stuff out of the ground in WA seems to have alluded you. No-one forced him to sign SBW for ridiculous money, no-one forced him to choose a city to base a club in that is impossible to play RL in for half the year, no-one forced him to say no thanks to the SL TV grant (well might of but we dont know what that conversation was). Feel sad for the great fanbase they were growing that his shonky ownership has let them down and hopefully someone else will have a go with more ability than Argyle.
The reason expansion keeps failing in RL is because the sport doesnt have the money to sustain a new business. It takes many many tens of millions over the first decade and the central body, or flyby night owners, dont have it to invest it seems.

 

[Perth Red]

Going to be a long process but I don't think English RL can lose this chance to grow.

It can and probably will. The real travesty was the Crusaders failing, if UK RL has the potential to grow (at all levels) anywhere, its Wales.

 

[Haffa]

The best thing for RL would have been KR going down last season instead of London.

 

[Perth Red]

The best thing for RL would have been KR going down last season instead of London.

Troll be too obvious lol

 

[Perth Tiger]

Hang on this is no-ones fault but Argyle. The RFL admitted them and there was a pathway to the top for them to take. What more do you think the RFL should have done?
The fact the guy clearly cant run a professional sports team and should stick to digging up stuff out of the ground in WA seems to have alluded you. No-one forced him to sign SBW for ridiculous money, no-one forced him to choose a city to base a club in that is impossible to play RL in for half the year, no-one forced him to say no thanks to the SL TV grant (well might of but we dont know what that conversation was). Feel sad for the great fanbase they were growing that his shonky ownership has let them down and hopefully someone else will have a go with more ability than Argyle.
The reason expansion keeps failing in RL is because the sport doesnt have the money to sustain a new business. It takes many many tens of millions over the first decade and the central body, or flyby night owners, dont have it to invest it seems.

They have had road blocks put in front of then by the RFL (mainly at the insistence of clubs like KR), things like not getting the grant or at least the RFL using the grant to alleviate some of the extra costs like travel, giving them the impression they could sell the rights to Canadian TV and forgetting to tell then they had already given the rights away, the huge complaints that they couldn't play blocks of games at home, among other, show they were completely inflexible to the realities of having a NA team in the comp.

That doesn't mean they haven't made their own mistakes, which they have, but it is clear the RFL don't want (or more likely don't know if they want) expansion teams.

Using your same reasoning then the Perth Reds completely failed on their own and Perth doesn't deserve a team in the NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

They have had road blocks put in front of then by the RFL (mainly at the insistence of clubs like KR), things like not getting the grant or at least the RFL using the grant to alleviate some of the extra costs like travel, giving them the impression they could sell the rights to Canadian TV and forgetting to tell then they had already given the rights away, the huge complaints that they couldn't play blocks of games at home, among other, show they were completely inflexible to the realities of having a NA team in the comp.

That doesn't mean they haven't made their own mistakes, which they have, but it is clear the RFL don't want (or more likely don't know if they want) expansion teams.

Using your same reasoning then the Perth Reds completely failed on their own and Perth doesn't deserve a team in the NRL.

Ok lets unpack this lol.

Toronto agreed to the no TV grant proposition. I dont believe for a minute they didnt know they couldnt sell their own rights, and if they didnt then they have done a very poor job at asking questions before setting their business plan!
They couldnt get sponsors, they signed SBW on the most ridiculous contract I have ever seen in RL in the hope of attracting sponsors and it failed badly. The club has been alomst entirely funded by Argyle for three years and they have not been able to generate any sort of revenue needed to make them sustainable
The RFL/clubs agreed to them playing in blocks given the weather in Toronto (again you have to ask if they should have ever been admitted given it compromises the scheduling so much but the RFL agreed to unique circumstances to let them in)
The Wolfpacks financial disaster has been brewing for some time, late payments and players wages delayed time and again where red flags before Covid. Covid was just the big gust of wind that brought the pack of cards down a season or two earlier than was likely anyway looking at the state of them.
It really doesnt matter what the RFL do or dont want, there is a clear system for getting promotion to SL, once in there it is up to each individual club to make a go of it. Clearly Argyles pockets are not deep enough for the sustained investment that is needed to start a new club in a brand new country for RL. Based on what he allegedly spent so far (18million pounds) it needs 40million pounds plus in all likelihood.

The Reds were stupid to agree the ARL's travel cost clause for admission ( in same way Toronto where for the no SL grant situation, if they hadnt agreed to that they could be playing out this year in UK with plans for next season back home). What made it worse was the business plan that they felt could cover it was blown away when the ARL added reserve grade and doubled the travel and accommodation costs.
"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. This is business. If it makes business sense to the NRL to have a Perth team, if it helps the game grow its revenue and fanbase, if a Perth club can generate the revenue to be sustainable, then there should be one. If not there shouldnt be.

 

[jasonstevenswedgie]

Perez said no central funding was meant to be reviewed after year 3

 

[taste2taste]

Ok lets unpack this lol.

Toronto agreed to the no TV grant proposition. I dont believe for a minute they didnt know they couldnt sell their own rights, and if they didnt then they have done a very poor job at asking questions before setting their business plan!
They couldnt get sponsors, they signed SBW on the most ridiculous contract I have ever seen in RL in the hope of attracting sponsors and it failed badly. The club has been alomst entirely funded by Argyle for three years and they have not been able to generate any sort of revenue needed to make them sustainable
The RFL/clubs agreed to them playing in blocks given the weather in Toronto (again you have to ask if they should have ever been admitted given it compromises the scheduling so much but the RFL agreed to unique circumstances to let them in)
The Wolfpacks financial disaster has been brewing for some time, late payments and players wages delayed time and again where red flags before Covid. Covid was just the big gust of wind that brought the pack of cards down a season or two earlier than was likely anyway looking at the state of them.
It really doesnt matter what the RFL do or dont want, there is a clear system for getting promotion to SL, once in there it is up to each individual club to make a go of it. Clearly Argyles pockets are not deep enough for the sustained investment that is needed to start a new club in a brand new country for RL. Based on what he allegedly spent so far (18million pounds) it needs 40million pounds plus in all likelihood.

The Reds were stupid to agree the ARL's travel cost clause for admission ( in same way Toronto where for the no SL grant situation, if they hadnt agreed to that they could be playing out this year in UK with plans for next season back home). What made it worse was the business plan that they felt could cover it was blown away when the ARL added reserve grade and doubled the travel and accommodation costs.
"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. This is business. If it makes business sense to the NRL to have a Perth team, if it helps the game grow its revenue and fanbase, if a Perth club can generate the revenue to be sustainable, then there should be one. If not there shouldnt be.

So, I guess the question is, would it be possible for any North American team to be profitable playing in the English Super League ?

 

[deluded pom?]

So, I guess the question is, would it be possible for any North American team to be profitable playing in the English Super League ?

SL is small time. I doubt very few if any of the clubs make any profit. Any profits there are will be peanuts in real terms. It’s a small time league for small time people. They couldn’t spell vision let alone show any.

 

[Perth Red]

So, I guess the question is, would it be possible for any North American team to be profitable playing in the English Super League ?

I very much doubt it sadly. You'd need an owner with verrry deep pockets for the first years start up, you'd need a decent level sponsorship support to cover the increased costs of running a club in a different continent and a decent sized fanbase willing to buy tickets to cover venue hire and travel costs. SL doesnt have the money to be able to supplement it and likely never will. You coukd have a sustained one with a billionaire owner wiling to chuck a 100mill at ti for ten years but hard to see it ever being profitable. I doubt there any heartland clubs that are profitable either!

 

[Perth Red]

SL is small time. I doubt very few if any of the clubs make any profit. Any profits there are will be peanuts in real terms. It’s a small time league for small time people. They couldn’t spell vision let alone show any.

You could argue that part of our problem is too much vision and a lack of willingness to grow outwards in a reasonable way and instead constantly going to for the glossy exciting quick sugar hits. Union in England is much bigger than League yet you dont see them coming up with hairbrain ideas like a club in a different continent!

Personally id rather see the SL and RFL work with the FRL and have a ten year strategy for growing the game in Southern france and in Wales with a grassroots, schools and jnrs and eventual SL club admission. 2-3 French clubs and 2 Welsh clubs in Sl would be a much better outcome than fly buy night Nth American clubs.

Two ft prof divisions of 10 clubs in each with 2 straight up and down P&R each year and much stornger fudning for the SL2 division to maintain FT squads in relegated would be the ideal.

 

[deluded pom?]

You could argue that part of our problem is too much vision and a lack of willingness to grow outwards in a reasonable way and instead constantly going to for the glossy exciting quick sugar hits. Union in England is much bigger than League yet you dont see them coming up with hairbrain ideas like a club in a different continent!

Personally id rather see the SL and RFL work with the FRL and have a ten year strategy for growing the game in Southern france and in Wales with a grassroots, schools and jnrs and eventual SL club admission. 2-3 French clubs and 2 Welsh clubs in Sl would be a much better outcome than fly buy night Nth American clubs.

Two ft prof divisions of 10 clubs in each with 2 straight up and down P&R each year and much stornger fudning for the SL2 division to maintain FT squads in relegated would be the ideal.

The RFL/SL don’t have any expansion ideas at all, hate brained or otherwise. I agree though that they should have tried to expand from the heartlands outwards using the amateur game.

 

[Perth Red]

The RFL/SL don’t have any expansion ideas at all, hate brained or otherwise. I agree though that they should have tried to expand from the heartlands outwards using the amateur game.

the amateur and semi prof third div have been the most successful areas of expansion of the game. It’s when it comes to the huge step up to SL and full time squad that problems arise for expansion sides.

league 1 has 2 welsh clubs, London, Coventry & Newcastle in it

 

[deluded pom?]

the amateur and semi prof third div have been the most successful areas of expansion of the game. It’s when it comes to the huge step up to SL and full time squad that problems arise for expansion sides.

league 1 has 2 welsh clubs, London, Coventry & Newcastle in it

What I’m getting at is those ares you have mentioned have done well in spite of not because of. The RFL should be targeting areas with an intention to set up X amount of amateur clubs in that area. Support it for ten years and then move on to another region. If pro clubs follow, great. If they don’t, not a huge problem.

 

[Haffa]

Troll be too obvious lol

It’s true though. London’s continued participation is crucial to the league.

 

[Perth Red]

It’s true though. London’s continued participation is crucial to the league.

It really isnt, not in their current guise anyway. A successful London club playing out a of a decent ground with a decent fanbase would most definitely be. The current London club is none of those things.

 

[Perth Red]

What I’m getting at is those ares you have mentioned have done well in spite of not because of. The RFL should be targeting areas with an intention to set up X amount of amateur clubs in that area. Support it for ten years and then move on to another region. If pro clubs follow, great. If they don’t, not a huge problem.

Like the rest of the game in Europe they are hamstrung by ltd revenue. Consider that in NRL clubs get around 40% of TV money whilst in UK they get 70% of it. NRL gets around $380mill a year Tv money whilst RFL gets around $63mill.
Even with all that money NRL still hasnt grown the game beyond its traditional heartlands despite all that money so all things considered are the RFL really doing that bad a job?