2001 vs 02,03,04 - The difference

[Gregory Drake]

I've been reading this forum for a while now and while much of the focus is on our potential in 05, 06 etc. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks is the major reason for Parra's demise over' the last couple years when you compare how they play football today with the way they were playing in 01. Obviously with the different quality of player that now resides at the club, you get a change in the skill level (compared to 01) but i still think the way or style in which we play is so much different.

1. Our fullback/outside backs are NEXT TO NEVER running into holes for short offlads from our forwards whenever they are able to get their hands free. This was our prime weapon in 01.

This is because of a couple of things i think - 1.The forwards we have now don't have enough skill/nouse in the tackle to get an arm free. 2 They aren't being coached to slip these passes (As evidenced many times this year when an opportunity to offload has arisen) and 3. The quality of backs that we had in 01(Hodgson, Lyon) were willing/able to get themslves in a position to run into the hole.(Not taking anything away from Mckinnon)

2. Our speed out of dummy half is nowhere near where it was in 01 - Drew and Marsh were absolutely on fire. They picked their runs to perfection and once through, had players lining up in support for tries.
Morris and Hopkins just haven't had the same amount of speed and effectiveness but at the same time, haven't had the players with them when the bust is made.

3.We had a half back who drove us around the park. Personally i don't think Jason Taylor was what fans at our club made him out to be. But I don't think you can underestimate his ability to steer a pack of forwards around - that was definitely his best quality and its what we seem to be lacking most. I reckon people underestimate the strategy inolved in our game. You need someone who is thinking 2-3 plays ahead -all the time. Witt is still young. He has truckloads of work' to do to get to that level. I think he can do it but i reckon it may take a while.

4.Our discipline in the little things has really disappeared. I'm not too sure if you all remember but things like our kick/chase was nothing short of sensational back in 01. It was second to none. I don't know how many times 90% of the team were down on the opponents 10 in a ready formed defensive line when the fullback was still getting to the ball -champagne stuff. Where is it now?

We concede a hell of alot more penalties (John Morris) these days from little things that weren't in our game 3 years ago.(btw - I still rate Johnny as a rake with heaps of potential)

5.Our sting in defence is gone - I'm putting this one down to simply the change in quality of player. Ian Hindmarsh, Andrew Ryan and PJ used to hit -and hurt.

I've got no doubt that the changes in our style of play are our "adaptation" to the way the Roosters changed the game in 02 with the rush defence but i still think 80% of the above has vansihed from our game regardless.

(BTW does anyone think that having a top premier league team in 01' with guys like Mckinnon pressuring hodgo for fullback etc has an effect on players performances in first grade?)


This is all very ironic given the fact the Brian Smith is renowned for his attention to the little details in the game and the high amount of discipline he enforces(This is not meant to be a Brian Smith bashing post).
Sure, we've had our injuries but for me its the "way" in which play that has really cruelled us.

I know it gets alittle exhaustive when you're constantly looking back to 01. But moving forward into next year when we have a much better roster, surely these are the little things that we have to focus on if we are going to challenge again.

I think we have a reason to be excited next year but i just really hope our club goes back to playing to its strengths - doing the little things right- 110%

Just my thoughts.

Blue and Gold forever!

 

[True EEL]

good to see you back having an association with Parra, Drakey :mrgreen: ;-)

anyway, good post there mate, well summarised and well put and yes i agree with most things you have put and i'm surre many others do too

 

[yy_cheng]

Wow Drakey, for a prop barely faster than Corey, you analyze quite well.

100% agree with your comments. And would like to add a few of my own.

1. a) Gang tackling. Basically, Hindy is gang tackled every time he gets the ball thus unable to get his hands free.
b) Many times in 01, we would throw the ball around and have great confidence in our ability to hold onto HARD, PRESSURED passes (sad thing is, is that I see the DOGS are doing it now). We did try it in a few games each year 02-04 but we kept on knocking on. I think then BS put a stop to it and we started playing one out. In '01, we use to throw the ball around heaps near our own try line. (I saw shades of that in the sharkie's game).

2. Drew and Marsh were the key. They would run a few steps from the ruck and pass it to a forward or they would go themselves. Therefore, the defence was always guessing. If the hookers are parked behind the ruck and passing all the time, the defence concentrates on the next ball carrier. Once again, this was better in the Sharkie's game with Hopkins and Webster.

b) Our forwards are receiving the ball way behind the adantage line and thus the rushing defence gets to them so much quicker. Our forward runs aren't timed well and our quick play the balls are almost non-existant

3. JT was good but not THAT GOOD. I reckon the hookers and forwards were our key in '01.

4. Yep. The killer. Could it be due to FITNESS???

 

[Freak]

GD Top post!!

The number one difference between 01 and since is
*Drum role*

SPEED

Especially around the ruck. Quick play the balls gave our nippy dummy halves great opportunity to really put the opposition on the back step, and that aloud our backs and in particular Michael Beutner (off quick quallity service from JT) enough room to choose to either go himself on the outside (which he did consistantly well) or choose to throw a pass to the outside backs or back inside for Hodgo.

Our 2nd biggest difference was our ability to offload creating 2nd phase play. N. Hindmarsh who played a lot wider back then was dynamic. As was Cayless and Bobcat.

And thirdly and Drakey touched on it was our maturity. Although our side was young we played the game with a mature mentality, we very rarely conceded silly penalties and our line defence was top shelf.

If we can improve in these 3 areas in 2005 i'm 100% confident that we will be a force to reckon with once again!!!

 

[Eelementary]

I've been reading this forum for a while now and while much of the focus is on our potential in 05, 06 etc. I was just wondering what everyone else thinks is the major reason for Parra's demise over' the last couple years when you compare how they play football today with the way they were playing in 01. Obviously with the different quality of player that now resides at the club, you get a change in the skill level (compared to 01) but i still think the way or style in which we play is so much different.

Of course it is - everything has changed since 2001. We don't have an established halves combination, our backline changes every week and our coach insists on using tactics which have a 50% or lower succes rate (the two lock stratagem immediately cmes to mind).

1. Our fullback/outside backs are NEXT TO NEVER running into holes for short offlads from our forwards whenever they are able to get their hands free. This was our prime weapon in 01.

I think that's mainly a forward problem. McKinnon and Smith always back up the runner, as does Widders, but they never get the ball. Tsoulos and Pearson are adventurous offloaders, but they must learn WHEN to offload. I believe this facet of our game was tremendous against Cronulla.

This is because of a couple of things i think - 1.The forwards we have now don't have enough skill/nouse in the tackle to get an arm free. 2 They aren't being coached to slip these passes (As evidenced many times this year when an opportunity to offload has arisen) and 3. The quality of backs that we had in 01(Hodgson, Lyon) were willing/able to get themslves in a position to run into the hole.(Not taking anything away from Mckinnon)

I think with players like Morrison, Cayless, Vella, Hindmarsh, Tsoulos and Cannings we have the skills for offloads. They probably aren't coached in second phase play - that is why when we do get the occassional offload, the boys look a tad surprised. McKinnon has gotten himslef into great positions in just about every game, yet has gotten rotten ball.

2. Our speed out of dummy half is nowhere near where it was in 01 - Drew and Marsh were absolutely on fire. They picked their runs to perfection and once through, had players lining up in support for tries.
Morris and Hopkins just haven't had the same amount of speed and effectiveness but at the same time, haven't had the players with them when the bust is made.

I think with the likes of Webster and Hopkins our dummy half isn't an issue, especially next year with Riddell on board. But Morris is not a hooker.

3.We had a half back who drove us around the park. Personally i don't think Jason Taylor was what fans at our club made him out to be. But I don't think you can underestimate his ability to steer a pack of forwards around - that was definitely his best quality and its what we seem to be lacking most. I reckon people underestimate the strategy inolved in our game. You need someone who is thinking 2-3 plays ahead -all the time. Witt is still young. He has truckloads of work' to do to get to that level. I think he can do it but i reckon it may take a while.

Witt needs a talented 5/8 inside him, a forward pack that goes forward and creates space and a backline willing to chime in before he can settle and produce his best. There is no 'I' in 'TEAM' - the team must work for him so that he can work for the team.

4.Our discipline in the little things has really disappeared. I'm not too sure if you all remember but things like our kick/chase was nothing short of sensational back in 01. It was second to none. I don't know how many times 90% of the team were down on the opponents 10 in a ready formed defensive line when the fullback was still getting to the ball -champagne stuff. Where is it now?

We concede a hell of alot more penalties (John Morris) these days from little things that weren't in our game 3 years ago.(btw - I still rate Johnny as a rake with heaps of potential)

Discipline is a coaching issue. Things like the kick chase are attitude - on a number of times this year when we have been performing well the chasing line was quick and effective. But we seem to struggle to maintain that week in, week out for 80 minutes.

5.Our sting in defence is gone - I'm putting this one down to simply the change in quality of player. Ian Hindmarsh, Andrew Ryan and PJ used to hit -and hurt.

Wagon and Vella pull off the occassional big hit. I think what is more important is approaching the player as you tackle him; we have a tendency to wait for the player to get to our players before we tackle him, and, as a result, the opponent has all the momentum and walks all over our tackler. We need to meet them and try to get the guy on his arse or back.

I've got no doubt that the changes in our style of play are our "adaptation" to the way the Roosters changed the game in 02 with the rush defence but i still think 80% of the above has vansihed from our game regardless.

The Roosters did not change the game in 2002, contrary to popular belief. They just adopted a better defensive option which suited the new rules of the game.

(BTW does anyone think that having a top premier league team in 01' with guys like Mckinnon pressuring hodgo for fullback etc has an effect on players performances in first grade?)

Not in our team, because certain players are untouchable. It works if everyone is fair game - even Hindy. If Hindy isn't performing, he needs to be dropped and a Junior promoted. But people like Wags, Vella, etc., even if they struggle, will not be dropped.

This is all very ironic given the fact the Brian Smith is renowned for his attention to the little details in the game and the high amount of discipline he enforces(This is not meant to be a Brian Smith bashing post).
Sure, we've had our injuries but for me its the "way" in which play that has really cruelled us.

Footy is a very, very simple game. All you need is heart and teamwork. And your halves need skill. But our coach tends to over-complicate things by playing two locks, neither of which has great skills, or by playing a good 5/8 at hooker and halfback, or by dropping or omitting a young halfback or playing him at 5/8.

I know it gets alittle exhaustive when you're constantly looking back to 01. But moving forward into next year when we have a much better roster, surely these are the little things that we have to focus on if we are going to challenge again.

Not really - yes we lost players. yes we had injuries since 2001. But our core players - Burt, Wagon, Cayless, Vella, Hindmarsh, Vaealiki, Lyon - were all around in 2003 and 2002, and we did not perform.

I think we have a reason to be excited next year but i just really hope our club goes back to playing to its strengths - doing the little things right- 110%

Just my thoughts.

Blue and Gold forever!

Well, on paper at least we have great reason to be excited:

1. McKinnon
2. Petersen
3. Tahu
4. Burt
5. Grothe
6. Morris
7. Witt
8. Cayless
9. Riddell
10. Vella
11. Hindmarsh
12. Morrison
13. Wagon

 

[Eelementary]

JT was good but not THAT GOOD.

How do you figure?

In my view, if he broke the record for most points he had to be pretty damned good.

 

[yy_cheng]

He definitely wasn't no Sterling or Lewis or Lockyer or Johns or Langer who could control the play.

The 2001 team was a TEAM !!! A TEAM which just glued and worked so well together and the players KNEW or could SENSE what the guy next to him was gonna do.

Today, it's will he pass? will he crab? well he tackle???? Maybe I'll just stand back and see what he does. Whoops, he passed the ball and I dropped it. #-o Oh well !


JT was an excellent goal kicker. We scored heaps of tries. He kicked the goals. SIMPLE.. Break the Record..

I still think it was Marsh and Drew and the forwards which really layed the foundations for the 2001 team.

 

[parra_princess]

Well, on paper at least we have great reason to be excited:

1. McKinnon
2. Petersen
3. Tahu
4. Burt
5. Grothe
6. Morris
7. Witt
8. Cayless
9. Riddell
10. Vella
11. Hindmarsh
12. Morrison
13. Wagon

Yep we do...and thats enough for me to be optimistic in the summer!!

 

[JKS]

The night Parramatta defeated Manly (38-22) to claim the 2001 Minor Premiership, the Sea Eagles coach Peter Sharp commented "They are a great side and they just wear you down ... that's what they did to us tonight".
You're spot on ... it was the teams discipline, ability to apply constant pressure and take their changes that really set them apart.
Great post GD !

 

[bradeel]

The night Parramatta defeated Manly (38-22) to claim the 2001 Minor Premiership, the Sea Eagles coach Peter Sharp commented "They are a great side and they just wear you down ... that's what they did to us tonight".
You're spot on ... it was the teams discipline, ability to apply constant pressure and take their changes that really set them apart.
Great post GD !

that's exactly it in my mind. the little things, the constant pressure. These days we relieve opposition sides with dropped balls and silly penalties. Everything else builds on that kind of platform in my opinion.

 

[Utey]

Its injuries. 2001 we had barely any this year we have used 37 players in a season.

 

[Misty Bee]

One of the best posts I have seen for ages, GD. Not a bad reply either Eelementary. Nothing left for me to say except that we have had player movements from our fringe players - but not our core players. Brian Smith has not handled the transitions at all well. He had the team all running to perfection in 01. Since then, he has ballsed up just about every import we have had. The scrumbase has been diabolical. Neither Witt, Thorman, Dykes, McFadden or Green seemed to get the authority to dominate play like a halfback should. They all seemed to me to be scared of the inner sanctum player that the side has been built around.

We have also lost a lot of speed out wide. In 01, Taylor wasn't as big a factor as Mick Buettner - the fastest 5/8 around. When he hit a gap, he did so at top speed, and he had the likes of Hodgeson, Lyon, Burt et al close on foot. IN comparison, watch McKinnon - the NRL's best meters man. No one backs him up.

 

[Avenger]

One of the best posts I have seen for ages, GD. Not a bad reply either Eelementary. Nothing left for me to say except that we have had player movements from our fringe players - but not our core players. Brian Smith has not handled the transitions at all well. He had the team all running to perfection in 01. Since then, he has ballsed up just about every import we have had. The scrumbase has been diabolical. Neither Witt, Thorman, Dykes, McFadden or Green seemed to get the authority to dominate play like a halfback should. They all seemed to me to be scared of the inner sanctum player that the side has been built around.

We have also lost a lot of speed out wide. In 01, Taylor wasn't as big a factor as Mick Buettner - the fastest 5/8 around. When he hit a gap, he did so at top speed, and he had the likes of Hodgeson, Lyon, Burt et al close on foot. IN comparison, watch McKinnon - the NRL's best meters man. No one backs him up.

I tend to agree with you Misty. Buettner in my opnion was the unsung hero of 2001. I remember that game when Taylor broke the pointscoring record. Buettner had a sciintillating game. Ian Hindmarsh and PJ Marsh were also 2 big losses that we have never really recovered from.

When 2002 came along we bought Dykes who was like a poor mans Jason Smith who tried to create trys with little success. If we get PJ next year we may have a 'quicker halves combo' that is not as stagnant as the present one. When I watch Parra now we seem to lack 'zip' in the halves. PJ will hopefully alleviate this problem. Remember that game he played against Saints at the Gong in 2001 when Taylor pulled out with the flu. That try from dummy half when he ran 30 metres to score will always stay in my memory. PJ Marsh to me if we get him and he regains fitness will be the most important signing for next year, slightly shading Riddell and Morrison.

 

[Pazza]

JT's Kicking game was a huge factor in our success.

 

[Eelementary]

One of the best posts I have seen for ages, GD. Not a bad reply either Eelementary. Nothing left for me to say except that we have had player movements from our fringe players - but not our core players. Brian Smith has not handled the transitions at all well. He had the team all running to perfection in 01. Since then, he has ballsed up just about every import we have had. The scrumbase has been diabolical. Neither Witt, Thorman, Dykes, McFadden or Green seemed to get the authority to dominate play like a halfback should. They all seemed to me to be scared of the inner sanctum player that the side has been built around.

We have also lost a lot of speed out wide. In 01, Taylor wasn't as big a factor as Mick Buettner - the fastest 5/8 around. When he hit a gap, he did so at top speed, and he had the likes of Hodgeson, Lyon, Burt et al close on foot. IN comparison, watch McKinnon - the NRL's best meters man. No one backs him up.

Well said mate.

 

[Eels Dude]

I think we are poorer in generally all areas of the game. The forwards aren't dominating. There is no strike power from dummy half. We lack a leader in the halves. We lack creativity in the backs. On top of this all the side just doesn't play with enough confidence. They try their guts out but we just don't have the talent unfortunately.

 

[bartman]

Good discussion starter Drakey.

I think a loss of confidence following the GF defeat in the season that was "ours for the taking" also has had a big impact.

Since then (or actually mid-2002 following two more defeats by Newcastle):
- the forwards stopped going forward,
- the halves and dummy couldn't rally or organise the team in attack, and
- the backline never saw proper attacking ball again.
- the coach doesn't seem to be able to motivate players, or get them to follow his game plans.

2001 was a finely tuned machine, with valued contributions by players in every position and kudos to the coaching staff for keeping it fresh and going for the whole season-long. But since the mid-2002 capitulation, it's been tough going on all fronts, no doubt.

 

[strider]

I agree with just about every point raise in this post....we really r just a shadow of the 2001 team.

The main reasons we suck:
- lack of speed
- lack of fitness
- lack of direction (JT in 2001 - and Buettner)
- lack of hard hitting defense (we really only have a pack of 'workers' now)
- lack of CONFIDENCE


And at the risk of getting an ear bashing I will add to the list:
- 2001 - virtually no injuries...pretty much the same players playing together for 20 odd rounds of footy.....2004 - anyone got a count of how many players we have used in the NRL this year?


I'll also say that I think the hang over from being one of the hottest favourites to lose a GF in how ever many years is probably still lingering....I dead set thought people saying we'd be emotionally scarred for a long time after losing that GF were talking crap, but it happened and I reckon the emtional scars are still visible (from players and coaching staff)....alot of hang over now is probably due to the events of 2002 (losing players) because of some disharmony when the emotional scars of 2001 were freshest.....hopefully the quality new recruits for next year can help heal some scars for good.

 

[JessEel]

greg drake is one of the first signatures i ever got when i was a littlen and my dad took my to eels training sessions in my james hardie jersey to meet the players
im my autograph book he's next to paul clarke and tulsen tolett
what a blast from the past, i was about 7 :lol:

 

[True EEL]

Eelementary

that should be how the tarting line up begins next season - almsot exactly IMHO

unless PJ is fit and ready or if this Josh Davis is "the man" in the centres