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2008 rule changes

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
I throw another couple out there...

1) Put corner post style markers on the junction of the twenty metre and touch lines to aid in judging 40-20 kicks. It's already pretty straight forward for officials to judge whether the kicker is on or behind the 40 metre line, but there is often significant question, even with video replay, which side of the 20 metre line a ball bounces into touch. A non rigid foam or cardboard pole on the twenty metre line would help eliminate the guesswork in the majority of instances. It still wouldn't help for high bouncing balls but for virtually zero cost it would help get the correct ruling more often for what really can be a game turning decision.

2) Limit defenses to two men in the tackle and allow two on one strips. The effect of this would be three fold. Firstly it would open up the game, allowing more off loads in tackles and less slow pealing off in the tackle. Secondly it would help further in eliminating grapple type tackles and lower body twisting injuries sustained in gang tackles. Thirdly it would eliminate the questionable penalty/scrum for one on one strips when the player believes they are the only one in the tackle, or when the referee believes he sees two men involved in the tackle when there is really only one. As a byproduct it would make the attacker more accountable for holding onto the ball.

The limit against three men in the tackle (or gang tackles) would require some specific interpretation to ensure it doesn't become an equally controversial and penalty ridden area to the current stripping law. Firstly you can still have more than two in the tackle defending off your own goal line or in your own in-goal. So the referee isn't going to penalise you if you're trying to hold up an attacker in-goal or push a player back from the goal-line. Second you can still have more than two in the tackle when trying to trap an opponent in his own in-goal. The rule is meant to change general play, not make last ditch defense less effective.

After that you get into the common sense areas of interpretation. If you have one man around the ball, and one man is slipping off the legs then the the third man coming in low shouldn't be penalised just because he makes contact momentarily before the man slipping off loses contact. As a general rule two men low and one man high, while technically illegal, would probably be let go unless the referee thinks the team is consistently and deliberately offending. But two men high and one man low or any other combination of three or more would be enforced. And a three man strip would always be penalised.

The optional aspect to this rule would be that the referee would not enforce it out of the blue. Like the bouncer in Test cricket, the ref would not call a no-ball on every occasion. He'd officially warn the captain, "Hey I've seen your boys makes a couple of three man tackles in the last few minutes, I'll penalise the next one". The point of this rule isn't to create another area of the game that generates 50-50 penalties and match turning refereeing controversies. It's to cut down on high injury risk gang tackles; eliminate the stripping penalty lottery and force attackers to take responsibility for ball security; and encourage more second phase play by reducing the number of players coming in high around the ball and the head.

Leigh.
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
lockyno1 said:
two referees on field please. It is clear that one ref isn't enough!
I'm amazed this didn't happen years ago (ie. before or in conjunction with the introduction of the 10 metre rule). Especially with the number of play the ball infringements and penalties given where players apparently fail to hear the ref call Held over the crowd noise. The ruck is where the game is won and lost and we've got the ref standing a mile away from it. The primary ref should be in the traditional position over the top of the play the ball. A second official should be back in the current refereeing position marking the ten and dropping back to be an in-goal judge when the defense is on the goal-line (and thus reduce referrals to the video ref). Both can call forward passes or other infringements as they see them but only the primary ref can award tries, stop the clock, sin-bin or send off players.

Leigh.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,978
Dogaholic said:
Who would have the power to challenge it? The captain or coach. How long do they have to challenge it? Once the ref blows for a try can it be challenged?


Captain or Coach can challenge...

for a try they have until before the conversion is taken, for a penalty, before the tap.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,978
Quidgybo said:
I think there has to be a real cost for failed challenges to discourage frivolous challenges. Three challenges per team, each challenge counts (you don't get another one for successfully challenging) and if you lose a challenge, you lose an interchange. If you've got no interchanges left then you can't challenge. As well as a general reduction in video referrals, the other side effect would almost certainly be a reduction in the number of interchanges used as coaches would always want to keep at least one or two in reserve in case they need to challenge a last minute or golden-point decision.



So you are saying that if a ref is having a particularly bad game (as they have been known to have), then a team may well use up their 3 challenges in the first half, and then have tries awarded in the 2nd half from obstructions, knock ons etc with no right to challenge these decisions??

that doesnt seem too fair to me. There is a reason why in tennis the player does not lose a challenge when it is successful.
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
Danish said:
So you are saying that if a ref is having a particularly bad game (as they have been known to have), then a team may well use up their 3 challenges in the first half, and then have tries awarded in the 2nd half from obstructions, knock ons etc with no right to challenge these decisions??
No, I am saying we have to come up with a method to discourage frivolous challenges before the system is a viable alternative to what we have now. You should only be challenging if you are pretty sure you're going to get a reversal, not merely out of hope, or for sending the video ref on a fishing expedition, or to stop the clock, or to get a breather. That's why the challenge needs a cost. If you think the cost of an interchange for a challenge (regardless of success or failure) is enough to prevent frivolous referrals then I'm happy to allow *unlimited* challenges - which in reality means a theoretical maximum of 12 per team. If they need to use 6 challenges in the opening ten minutes they can, but it means they'd only have 6 interchanges left for the rest of the match. At some point we have to accept that even on his worst day, the average first grade ref is only going to make so many mistakes. So ultimately it comes down to how confident is the captain/coach that the challenges are warranted?

On the other hand, if you don't think the cost of an interchange is enough disincentive or don't want to link interchanges and challenges but you still want a limit only on unsuccessful challenges then I'd argue three bad challenges is one too many. Again the message must be, don't challenge unless you're pretty sure you've got a case. If you find yourself at the end of the game with a crucial decision but you're unable to challenge because you've already made two or three bad calls or because you're out of interchanges then you've got no one to blame but yourself. Save those challenges for when you're sure (or don't use so many interchanges). The video ref in a challenge system isn't there to toss a coin or play a lottery of benefit of the doubt with line ball calls. He's there to reverse existing refereeing decisions that are clearly wrong. Hence the burden of proof is "indisputable video evidence". If it isn't clear cut then the existing decision made by the on field officials, no matter how debatable, must stand.

As an aside, Inu's second "No Try" yesterday would almost certainly have had any Challenge dismissed regardless of whether the on field officials had given the try or called him in touch. The decision was too close to call - even for a video ref. The difference between what happened yesterday and a challenge system is that the video ref was forced to make a call regardless of it being too close to call. It ended up a lottery. In a challenge, he would have just said it's too close, I don't see "indisputable video evidence" that the call as made is wrong (in either case) so the existing decision stands. Immediately the video ref is removed from the centre of any controversy and the authority of the man in the middle is reinforced after years of being eroded.

Danish said:
Captain or Coach can challenge...
I disagree. The call must come from the Captain. As with penalty goals, he may look to the sideline to see if the trainers are holding up two fingers, but the communication to the referee must come from a player on the field. Requests for official action during a game must come where the game is being played. Not from lights flashing in the stand or flags thrown at a sideline or the video ref making a private call down to the on field official. The man in the middle still runs this game and all decisions on whether a challenge is allowed must go through him (eg. refusing a challenge against a forward pass if that is deemed not to be challengeable). The most efficient way to ensure that process happens without stuff up is to have the man requesting the challenge standing right in front of the ref where he can't be missed and where he can communicate exactly what he is challenging.

Leigh.
 

kav

Juniors
Messages
93
I'll throw in a radical change (just because league had radical origins and I like to push the paramaters a bit):

Abolish penalty kicks at goal.

Reasoning:

1. Fans want to see tries scored rather than goals.
2. Penalties received close to the goal posts should have equal value to those conceded further out.
3. Avoid penalty goals deciding the result of games.
4. Would lessen the incidence of the "professional" foul.

Kav
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
kav said:
4. Would lessen the incidence of the "professional" foul.
I'd suggest it would actually increase "professional" fouls as you could now give away penalities close to the line without having to worry about possibly conceding easy points. It's just an extension of the argument against golden try. Especially late in games while defending a one or two point lead or a tied score, it's a free for all knowing all you'll ever concede is a quick tap. But as long as it stops a try, any tactic legal or not is fair game because you have little else to lose. And if you deal with that by sin-binning players then really you've just substituted one sort of penalty deciding games for another.

Leigh.
 

kav

Juniors
Messages
93
Quidgybo said:
I'd suggest it would actually increase "professional" fouls as you could now give away penalities close to the line without having to worry about possibly conceding easy points. It's just an extension of the argument against golden try. Especially late in games while defending a one or two point lead or a tied score, it's a free for all knowing all you'll ever concede is a quick tap. But as long as it stops a try, any tactic legal or not is fair game because you have little else to lose. And if you deal with that by sin-binning players then really you've just substituted one sort of penalty deciding games for another.

Leigh.

Aternatively, I could argue that a defending team more than two points ahead are happy to concede a kickable penalty goal (by a professional foul) rather than possibly concede a converted try. I would also suggest that, whereas referees are reluctant to give kickable penalties in tight finishes, they are more likely to sin bin for repeat offences which is a fair consequence. The attacking team then still has to get over the line rather than kick the rather lame penalty goal.

Kav
 

JB

Juniors
Messages
863
I'd like to see all scrums set 5m infield opening up a whole field for a backline to put a set play on.
Also, wouldn't allow any forward to break from the scrum until the ist receiver has got the ball from the halfback (or if the half has run more than a metre). Hopefully allowing the 1st receiver to have options, rather than getting the ball and 2 or 3 forwards at the same time.
 

nqboy

First Grade
Messages
8,914
lockyno1 said:
two referees on field please. It is clear that one ref isn't enough!
I've been saying that for twenty years now.

OMFG, I'm agreeing with Locky :shock: He must have a random intelligence generator that just hit the jackpot.
 

Big_Bad_Shark_Fan

First Grade
Messages
8,279
I really hate seeing sides just give away deliberate penalties. It has to stop.

What i suggest is that if a team gives away more than 6 penalties in a half, then one of there players has to leave the field for the rest of there half, and the opposition gets to chose who.

would create a much more free flowing game and noone would want to give penalties away
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
101,613
1-Benefit of the Doubt tries should be scrapped. The rule is far too ambiguous with each ref having his own interpretation, and I believe that if there is any doubt then the try should not be awarded.

2-An eligibility rule change. The nation you play for in your debut international match is the nation you stick with for your whole career. Countries like Tonga, Fiji and Samoa are starting to produce some real talented players (MoiMoi, Mateo, Hayne, Tuiaki I believe, etc) and it only harms the international game to have them declare allegiance for other countries. Especially with several resurgent South Pacific Rugby sides as competition

3-I'm another one for the Golden Try concept. Golden point at the moment may as well be a field goal shootout a la soccer.

4-Scrap the ban on coaches speaking their mind. Sure, it's fine to prevent them getting personal towards officials but fining them for saying that a referee was crap or that a decision cost them the game is ludicrous. If it's true, why fine them? And if it's not, they look like a genius anyway, no harm done

5-Sin Bin for foul play. Change the rule to five minutes for a professional foul, ten minutes for foul play like high shots that aren't worthy of a send off
 

Big_Bad_Shark_Fan

First Grade
Messages
8,279
maybe if the games a tie we should just go to a penalty shootout. conversions from 30-40m out. each team has 5 kicks, normal format. imagine the excitement
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
101,613
Big_Bad_Shark_Fan said:
maybe if the games a tie we should just go to a penalty shootout. conversions from 30-40m out. each team has 5 kicks, normal format. imagine the excitement

You're an idiot....jump off a bridge
 

Butters

Bench
Messages
3,899
Big_Bad_Shark_Fan said:
maybe if the games a tie we should just go to a penalty shootout. conversions from 30-40m out. each team has 5 kicks, normal format. imagine the excitement

Imagine Luke Covell kicking under that sort of pressure, 0/5 for sure.
 

Big_Bad_Shark_Fan

First Grade
Messages
8,279
i think covell would be fine. the real test would be when ur 7th and 8th string kickers start having a go.
obviously each person only gets one shot.

can u imagine the pressure though. the kick gets mish*t and it wobbles to the posts and just goes over. the crowd doesnt know if it has. the touchies wait a minute, crowd waiting anxiously as the flags go up.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
101,613
You'd have to wake them up first...you want soccer, go watch soccer. This is NRL
 

Floods

Juniors
Messages
139
1. One point each if your side gets to extra time and who ever wins the extra time portion gets another point, if it's still a draw then it's just one point each, this may take a little pressure off ref's in regard of not blowing match deciding penalties ala Warriors vs Roosters this year. Might also make GP a little easier on fans ;-)

2. This is taken from yawnion but what if at any time the ball goes into touch it's doesn't have to be an automatic scrum and players can take the risk of throwing the ball in 10m to another player or themselves, I feel this could eliminate a lot of the kick for touch and run down the clock plays you see towards the ends of matchs and make close matches a little more exciting.

And agree 100% on the players who pack the scrum must stay in it for the feed.
Just my thoughts any way.
 

JB

Juniors
Messages
863
If you kick the ball dead from in your half, a scrum feed to the other team at the place where you kicked it. Would encourage a bit more skill rather than just hoofing it downfield over the deadball so your forwards get a rest while play is reset.
 
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