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2nd Test: New Zealand vs Australia at Hamilton. 27-31 March

Twizzle

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Staff member
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154,190
all over

177run victory to the Aussies,

Notch wit 10 wicket in this test match
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,782
Talk of Neesham in particular is premature. He literally has not done a thing in domestic cricket yet.

Agree with everything you've said - but he is a talent, and Guptill (who is talented too) has literally not done a thing in domestic first class or test cricket, and seems to be viewed as a permanent fixture :crazy:
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
I see Papps made a run a ball 100 in the first innings against Auckland and is currently 163* not out in the second.

It sucks that our next cricket is the stupid Twenty/20 world cup and that we dont have another Test for 6 months.
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,782
Papps and Sinclair have been treated disgracefully by selectors... Not saying they're world beaters, but any stretch but their first class records demand that they should have been in test teams ahead of many of the nuffies picked instead of them, and their well documented limitations are no worse that any of their competitors
 
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10,103
Was excited today to listen to the radio and hear that Sherlock was steaming in, bowling quick and took 7/130. If he can stay fit and healthy, which will be tough when you look at his slender frame, he could be in the side very quickly if on winter A tours etc. Dennis Lillee saw him bowl around 17-18 and rang NZ cricket to tell them to put him in the side, but he has been wrecked by injury quick. Have seen him fully fit once a few years back and he was very quick
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I would agree Papps has been treated poorly. I feel Sinclair has had enough opportunities, and scratching 2 terrific innings he has performed poorly.

Test Team

1 McIntosh - if we want to say Papps was treated poorly, to me a bloke who is willing to put his head down and bat nigh on a day against Australia is worth perservering with. He has to have another 2 series IMO.
2 Watling - Again, it would be premature to discard him. He shows some good signs, he just needs some confidence and a sense of security. One good innings and he could be a decent bat for NZ.
3 Sinclair - he's now in the team, he needs an opportunity to cement it. I thought he was getting it against England and failed to take it, but if NZ are fair dinkum about FINALLY knowing one way or the other whether he can do it or whether he's just a first class flat track bully then they need to give him another full series
4 Taylor - One of Crowe's advantages in becoming NZ's best bats is he generally had someone like John Wright or Andrew Jones or Jeremy Coney who had been around for a while and had cemented themselves also batting in the top order. I don't think Taylor's had that, and mentally he has swiped away many good starts. I'd like to see him bat behind a settled top 3 for a series or two and just concentrate on his own game, and his game should be, get my eye in, and then play normal cricket strokes.
5 Martin Guptill - Ponting was saying he thinks Southee and Guptill are the two blokes coming through who impress him as being talented enough to do well. Largely I feel he's let himself down in this series. But the problem he has are manageable, and IMO the problems are part and parcel of having practically no first class cricket behind him (similar to many NZ bats). If he can iron out a bit more control on the drive he will be a profitable batsman.
6 Jesse Ryder - It's a fait a compli that NZ desperately need him back in there. Not only the best timer in New Zealand cricket by a long, long margin, he is a bit of a partnership breaker.
7 Brendon McCullum
8 Daniel Vettori - He's best suited down the order. The reason he's been up the order is not a batting issue at all, he's because he has no confidence in his bowling attack so he tries to get by with one more bowler. Throwing more numbers at something doesn't necessarily improve the quality.
9 Tim Southee - Much like McIntosh, he shows signs. I hope he can take the confidence of the first innings and realise he's up to this level.
10 Brent Arnel - he gets later nip off the wicket than the others, he's worth a shot
11 Andy McKay - he's quicker than the others, he's worth a shot

What the attack really lacks is a spinner who turns the ball prodigiously (which is why opposition teams can bat for days in their second innings against New Zealand), and a bowler who can achieve bounce. I'm not convinced Andy McKay is that guy either, watching him live at McClean Park against the Bangas he looked lively enough in terms of pace, but it seemed to skid on rather than slam into the top half of the bat, which to me is the one element the Australian pace bowlers are very, very, very good at. It's not so much their sideways movement, it's the ability to hit the top half of the bat and cause the batsmen to lose control.

New Zealand needs to say it's time to move on from Chris Martin, technically he is an ordinary bowler, with a fairly lengthy but not convincing test career. He is an inswinger who does nothing else, and when he does move it it's from the hand and not late enough to trouble good batsmen. Also, he is an extreme liability in basically you know when you start out you're 1 down. A professional cricketer should have developed his batting skills enough to be able to play a forward defence to a straight one. To me, that's not cult status worthy, that's cringe worthy that he's got away with it for so long. Even Glenn McGrath improved his batting enough to get a 50 and if you were desperate there were some occasions when he would fight it out with a Stephen Waugh to help Australia out. With Martin, you have no hope. They also need to move on from offies like Patel who don't turn it, and furthermore, unlike Vettori have no ability to vary things. Vettori can contain batsmen by his variations in speed and flight, but Patel and McCullum are very much one paced and especially when it's not turning, and even more so when it won't turn quickly, they're easily dispatched.

New Zealand need to ask Santa for a bounce bowler at good speed, and a spinner who can spin the ball. Forget the lack of runs, New Zealand does not have the attack to get 20 wickets in a test match against genuinely good opposition.
 
Last edited:

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,643
I think Bollinger and Hilfenhaus(when fit) are good cricketers, bowl excellent lines. The rest that JJ mentioned are not all that great.

I think that after near 15 years of dominance we had a large age group which didnt play much high level cricket, which is why they've never gone to another level (that 26-34 age) and even when selected are slightly average (IMO anyway). The best thing about Aust cricket is the talent we have in the 19-24 age group, really dont want to see some of it held back for too long by hacks like siddle. Players like Khawaja, Hazlewood, Copeland, S Smith, Phil Hughes, Mitch Marsh etc are all potentially excellent cricketers (and ive probably forgotten some guys here as well).
The crop we've got coming through atm is amazing IMO, best we've had in a long time. Almost every state has a good young guy doing well, NSW have about 5 or 6 good young guys, Hughes, Smith, Khawaja, Starc, Hazlewood, Copeland. Even Victorians have a few good talents too in Pattinson, Matthew wade, and John Hastings, though as usual 2 of the better Victorian prospects are imports
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,782
I would agree Papps has been treated poorly. I feel Sinclair has had enough opportunities, and scratching 2 terrific innings he has performed poorly.

Test Team

1 McIntosh - if we want to say Papps was treated poorly, to me a bloke who is willing to put his head down and bat nigh on a day against Australia is worth perservering with. He has to have another 2 series IMO.
2 Watling - Again, it would be premature to discard him. He shows some good signs, he just needs some confidence and a sense of security. One good innings and he could be a decent bat for NZ.
3 Sinclair - he's now in the team, he needs an opportunity to cement it. I thought he was getting it against England and failed to take it, but if NZ are fair dinkum about FINALLY knowing one way or the other whether he can do it or whether he's just a first class flat track bully then they need to give him another full series
4 Taylor - One of Crowe's advantages in becoming NZ's best bats is he generally had someone like John Wright or Andrew Jones or Jeremy Coney who had been around for a while and had cemented themselves also batting in the top order. I don't think Taylor's had that, and mentally he has swiped away many good starts. I'd like to see him bat behind a settled top 3 for a series or two and just concentrate on his own game, and his game should be, get my eye in, and then play normal cricket strokes.
5 Martin Guptill - Ponting was saying he thinks Southee and Guptill are the two blokes coming through who impress him as being talented enough to do well. Largely I feel he's let himself down in this series. But the problem he has are manageable, and IMO the problems are part and parcel of having practically no first class cricket behind him (similar to many NZ bats). If he can iron out a bit more control on the drive he will be a profitable batsman.
6 Jesse Ryder - It's a fait a compli that NZ desperately need him back in there. Not only the best timer in New Zealand cricket by a long, long margin, he is a bit of a partnership breaker.
7 Brendon McCullum
8 Daniel Vettori - He's best suited down the order. The reason he's been up the order is not a batting issue at all, he's because he has no confidence in his bowling attack so he tries to get by with one more bowler. Throwing more numbers at something doesn't necessarily improve the quality.
9 Tim Southee - Much like McIntosh, he shows signs. I hope he can take the confidence of the first innings and realise he's up to this level.
10 Brent Arnel - he gets later nip off the wicket than the others, he's worth a shot
11 Andy McKay - he's quicker than the others, he's worth a shot

What the attack really lacks is a spinner who turns the ball prodigiously (which is why opposition teams can bat for days in their second innings against New Zealand), and a bowler who can achieve bounce. I'm not convinced Andy McKay is that guy either, watching him live at McClean Park against the Bangas he looked lively enough in terms of pace, but it seemed to skid on rather than slam into the top half of the bat, which to me is the one element the Australian pace bowlers are very, very, very good at. It's not so much their sideways movement, it's the ability to hit the top half of the bat and cause the batsmen to lose control.

New Zealand needs to say it's time to move on from Chris Martin, technically he is an ordinary bowler, with a fairly lengthy but not convincing test career. He is an inswinger who does nothing else, and when he does move it it's from the hand and not late enough to trouble good batsmen. Also, he is an extreme liability in basically you know when you start out you're 1 down. A professional cricketer should have developed his batting skills enough to be able to play a forward defence to a straight one. To me, that's not cult status worthy, that's cringe worthy that he's got away with it for so long. Even Glenn McGrath improved his batting enough to get a 50 and if you were desperate there were some occasions when he would fight it out with a Stephen Waugh to help Australia out. With Martin, you have no hope. They also need to move on from offies like Patel who don't turn it, and furthermore, unlike Vettori have no ability to vary things. Vettori can contain batsmen by his variations in speed and flight, but Patel and McCullum are very much one paced and especially when it's not turning, and even more so when it won't turn quickly, they're easily dispatched.

New Zealand need to ask Santa for a bounce bowler at good speed, and a spinner who can spin the ball. Forget the lack of runs, New Zealand does not have the attack to get 20 wickets in a test match against genuinely good opposition.

I think you're pretty much bang on... although I am desperate to get Williamson in the side - he's potentially the best we've had since Crowe, better than Taylor imo, but I don't want him at 3 yet...

McIntosh is too hit and miss for me - I like his courage etc, but his two dismissals in this test, both bowled, were indicative of what we will see a lot from him... I'd like Taylor at 3, if we had a reliable opening pair - but at the moment 3 is almost a death wish - effectively you're an opener - too tough on Williamson, so that leaves Sinclair, Taylor or Ryder.... Ryder technically is probably the most up to it, Taylor's talent will allow him to cope, but I think he'd score more runs at 4... Williamson is the long term answer, but as the Aussies did with Ponting, I'd prefer to start him at 5 or 6. Guptill and Sinclair are the odd ones out - although the selctors clearly don't view Guptill that way - Sinclair the mountain of first class runs, 3 stunning test innings early on, then strange selections and not an extended chance in recent years - but ultimately I am not sure he's been much worse than people that were perservered with. Guptill, clearly talent but has done NOTHING in first class cricket, nor test cricket...

On the bowling - as you kind of allude too, Vetorri is in a strange way part of the problem - he simply doesn't get people out often enough in tests... he's effectively a modern day equivalenty of Ewen Chatfield - reliable, tidy, building pressure but ultimately not getting many people out... what we lack (without Bond) is a strike bowler - but as we saw in the first innings, the attack can get the job done, but the batsmen failed to puch the advantage home and then our two spinners were simply rubbish... in a story today Vetorri is defending batting Patel at 8 (which was clearly stupid) and talking about how Patel dominates at first class level and is ahead of McCullum and Woodcock... that's obviously not true, Patel's first class average is over 40... so he's (like Hauritz) a very ordinary operator... and the other two are much better bats

Hopefully one or two of Bennett, Boult, or Sherlock work out... in reality historicall have so few pace bowlers of quality it's not funny... since I have been watching there has only really been Hadlee, and then a bunch who to varying degrees might have done well but usually because of injury ultimately frustrated (Bracewell, Allott, Bond, Butler, and even Cairns)
 
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4,924
Hopefully one or two of Bennett, Boult, or Sherlock work out...

Trust me - write off Richard Sherlock right now. Lillee rated him when he was 18 sure, but things have changed alot since then.

I've had a bit of exposure to the whole Sherlock issue and its the same story every time. Its the 6 step Richard Sherlock plan:

1. Sherlock gets injured and sits out for 3-6 months
2. Sherlock comes back rebuilt, and bowls at 130kph - gets carted but is perservered with due to his promise 5 years ago
3. Sherlock builds up pace to 140ish, but his line and length is so sprayed that he is carted to every corner of the ground
4. For one or two games (maximum) sherlock gets up to truley terrifying speeds of 150kph+ and due to the lack of exposure to genuine quicks, he rips through a domestic batting lineup.
5. Sherlock then reinjures his back
6. Repeat process

Currently Sherlock isnt even contracted to a domestic side. He got the call up for auckland because of all the injuries and he was up there for uni. I think Te Ahu Davis is probably in the same boat as this guy.

Fast bowling wise, I would be more inclined to pin my hopes on Boultt, McClenaghan, Bennet and the 2 new 18 year old CD quicks (apparently one is absolutely express).
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
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8,085
What two 18 year old CD quicks are you talking about? Because I would hardly call Wheeler or Milne absolutly express.
 

JJ

Immortal
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32,782
I'd be surprised if anyone in NZ is absolute express - not even sure what the term means...

Johnson is impressive because he's consistently fast... but he kind of has to be, he doesn't have much apart from pace and aggression in his armoury
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
150+ I'd say. We have a few that can hover round 140 for a bit but not consistently, and then McKay who seems to be around 140-145.
 

weasel

First Grade
Messages
5,872
Wow, I know you guys won reasonably comfortably against the Bangas in NZ, but they have been in pretty good form the last few months, and were much tougher opponents at home for stronger teams in India and England. If that series was played right now they could potentially win it.
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
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154,190
you gonna have to find some bowlers going into a test series on the sub continent, Martyn would be cannon fodder over there imo

thats a baptism of fire for any young blokes trying to break into your team
 

Fast Eddie

First Grade
Messages
8,085
Im pretty confident we will beat Bangladesh, we wont have a show against India with our bowling attack.
 

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