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Adelaide Sharks?

DINGb@T

Juniors
Messages
834
As much as I'd like to see the Coast have its own team I cant see the population supporting it the way Ipswich would.

At the moment they're trying to force the population inland and away from the overcrowded coastal areas so there's massive expansion of the Ipswich corridoor with satellite town/cities going up all over the place. It's getting to the point where Ipswich is asking for its own top shelf CBD, something which would send a lot more coorporate jobs out west and, with them, more white collar industry, followed by the service industry jobs to service them, etc, etc. With that sort of infrastructure going up Ipswich will soon be a new inland Gold Coast with the corporate backing to match which would help their cause a great deal.

Not only that but Ipswich will be a centralised population from a semi-rural background- always a better demographic for football. If you're in Ipswich you're gonna have nothing else to do so you may as well go to the footy :)sarcasm: anyone from Ipswich gonna bite?).

They also have the perk of being on the railline straight to the gate of Lang Park. It's a fair way from the end of the line but it's still possible to play home games out of the world's greatest League stadium without too much difficulty. I cant see the government releasing too much money in the future for new football stadiums so that will be a big boost to their chances.

The Sunny Coast, as 'glamarous' as it is, is spread out over several population centres without the transport infrastructure. From what I can gather they're looking at Caloundra for the QLD Cup team which places it on the southern end of Noosa/Maroochydore/Caloundra which isn't the best scenario for transporting 10,000 odd footy fans back to M'dore or Noosa via public transport.

Remember, Skilled Park, the last stadium funded by the government, has no carparking. They did that on purpose and I cant see them being more car friendly with the next one. And getting the money for a brand new stadium will start the mother of all biyatch fights with the aerial ping pong set on the Goldie which have already been knocked back. The Titans may have sucked up all the political capital for footy infrastructure for a while.

Finally, the Coast is the coast which makes it triathelete/surf country. I may be demographic sterotyping here but with surfing etc coastal areas are a lot more diversified when it comes to entertainment. That means a smaller population, that is a harder sell, without an established football ground. Can you see the Hasting Street set from Noosa travelling to the footy?

I'd love to see a battle of the beaches between the Sunshine and Gold Coasts (I'd even think about switching alliances) and it would definitely be possible given the right circumstances but a well established Ipswich Jets would just be a bit too hard to go past in every aspect outside of the classiness factor.

That's just my opinion anyway.
 

flamin

Juniors
Messages
2,046
This is gonna become a major headache for the NRL.

First up, is that $15 million for setting up a team on the CC or for relocating a team to the CC? I was under the impression that it was for a team to move out of crowded Sydney, not for another team to be created.

The way things are going we're going to have at least 4 major players in the race for another set of teams (2 teams would be the obvious choice to avoid a bye) the 4 being Central Coast Bears, South East Queensland (which is Gallops preferred option), PNG (that does have major minig backers by the way, a lot of them from the sounds of it) and Western Australian Reds. Also, if they all start yelling at once, New Zealand will probably put its hand up to be counted.

If PNG do put in a bid, it wont be for the next tv contract, so it'll probably end up being for the 2017 contract.

And yes everywhere I've seen it, it's been for $$$ for relocating, not for starting new. Though the Bears may present it as a relocation, I doubt the NRL would interpret it that way.
 

Lockyer4President!

First Grade
Messages
7,975
The Sunny Coast, as 'glamarous' as it is, is spread out over several population centres without the transport infrastructure. From what I can gather they're looking at Caloundra for the QLD Cup team which places it on the southern end of Noosa/Maroochydore/Caloundra which isn't the best scenario for transporting 10,000 odd footy fans back to M'dore or Noosa via public transport.

Remember, Skilled Park, the last stadium funded by the government, has no carparking. They did that on purpose and I cant see them being more car friendly with the next one.

Quad Park is between Caloundra and Maroochy which are the two main population centres on the SC and where most of the SC's development is going to happen.

There's a rail line planned to go through Caloundra and up to Maroochydore (but not up to Noosa) by 2020, which you'd think would be the earliest that a SC team would be entering the NRL (Ipswich/West Brisbane would probably be looking at a 2012 entry). The track goes right past Quad Park too so they're obviously planning for the future.

Seems like that's about as good a position as we'll get for a stadium.
 
Messages
23,958
An additional SE-QLD NRL club is inevitable sometime over the next 15 years (by which time SE-QLD will be larger than Melbourne). Unlike the other potential locations for expansion clubs an additional SE-QLD club is a slam dunk in terms of profitability.

The Broncos and Titans are two of the most financially sound clubs in the competition, profitable without relying on poker machines, continually turning back sponsorship opportunities, drawing the top 2 crowd averages over the season, and generating huge public interest via TV.

Then there is the additional benefits an additional SE-QLD would bring (lets say a Sunshine Coast team). If the draw is continually tweaked to ensure a maximum number of derby games, a new Sunshine Coast team would increase the number of all-QLD derby's from 6 to 12 - An all-QLD derby every second week. And with theses derby games the NRL get the added benefits of sell-out crowds, media saturation during the build up, and monster TV ratings (A Broncos V Titans game out-rated the Olympic Games - and almost nothing out-rates the Olympics).

Assuming the Sunshine Coast team plays the majority of their home games out of a purpose built rectangular stadium, and takes a few blockbusters to Suncorp (and that the Titans do the same), Suncorp could host 16-18 games a season, almost 1 every weekend.


As for where the other expansion team would be from, everyone will probably have a better idea in a year or twos time. With the Sydney clubs continuing to feel financial pressure it is only a matter of time until one of them moves to the Central Coast to ensure their future.

If WA can produce a positive response to the games being played there over the next couple year (like the Titans in 2004-2005) they may be able force there way into the NRL's expansion plans as the 18th team.
Ask the South Queensland Cruchers about profitability and staying in the comp.

No Sydney club will move to the Central Coast. 3 clubs have already knocked the option back (Souths, Manly, Canterbury), others (Parramatta, Penrith,) recorded their first net loss in a long time so they aren't panicing, the joint ventures are helping their weaker financial club during this time (St George helps Steelers, Wests Campbelltown + Ashfield help Balmain), whilst the remaining sides either have strong supporter bases or sound financial support. The poker machine tax is also being reviewed in a positive sense, so things are not all doom and gloom in Sydney.
 
Last edited:

BrisVegas

Juniors
Messages
892
Ask the South Queensland Cruchers about profitability and staying in the comp.

No Sydney club will move to the Central Coast. 3 clubs have already knocked the option back (Souths, Manly, Canterbury), others (Parramatta, Penrith,) recorded their first net loss in a long time so they aren't panicing, the joint ventures are helping their weaker financial club during this time (St George helps Steelers, Wests Campbelltown + Ashfield help Balmain), whilst the remaining sides either have strong supporter bases or sound financial support. The poker machine tax is also being reviewed in a positive sense, so things are not all doom and gloom in Sydney.

The SE-QLD "Cruchers" isn't a good test case. The club had SuperLeague in the background its whole existence - hence the failure.Yet in there first season they were still able to draw an average home crowd of 21,000 - enough to be the 3rd highest drawing team in the the NRL in 2008.

As for "No club moving to the Central Coast" - it is simply a matter of time. As you pointed out Leagues Clubs are recording losses, thereby causing a reduction in grants that will be reduced ever further over the coming years. South Sydney, Penrith and Parramatta have all announced they will be cutting their football department budgets. Then there is the increasingly strained Sydney market trying to lure crowds, corporates and sponsors at a time when the economy is slowing.

It's not just about surviving, but about being competitive. Clubs such as Cronulla, Penrith and Paramatta are spending ~ 30% of the money clubs such as the Cowboys, Brisbane, the Gold Coast and Melbourne are on their football departments. Over time such inequity in spending will lead to certain clubs dominating others - irrespective of the salary cap.
 
Messages
23,958
The SE-QLD "Cruchers" isn't a good test case. The club had SuperLeague in the background its whole existence - hence the failure.Yet in there first season they were still able to draw an average home crowd of 21,000 - enough to be the 3rd highest drawing team in the the NRL in 2008.

As for "No club moving to the Central Coast" - it is simply a matter of time. As you pointed out Leagues Clubs are recording losses, thereby causing a reduction in grants that will be reduced ever further over the coming years. South Sydney, Penrith and Parramatta have all announced they will be cutting their football department budgets. Then there is the increasingly strained Sydney market trying to lure crowds, corporates and sponsors at a time when the economy is slowing.

It's not just about surviving, but about being competitive. Clubs such as Cronulla, Penrith and Paramatta are spending ~ 30% of the money clubs such as the Cowboys, Brisbane, the Gold Coast and Melbourne are on their football departments. Over time such inequity in spending will lead to certain clubs dominating others - irrespective of the salary cap.
Attempts to get a 3rd team in Qld were around a long time before the ARL vs ASL war. The idea back then though was to help the QRL wrestle control of the game in Qld away from the Broncos.

Also, we are talking about one loss, not years in succession. In other cases, clubs like Penrith who have basically franchised out throughout NSW gear their club to trade in negative profit vs loss for tax purposes. Trust me when I say one bad year doesn't mean that teams are down the toilet in Sydney. Budget cuts and retrenchings happen throughout every industry, Qantas have been in the news recently for exactly that reason. Doesn't mean they will stop flying planes.

There is a lot of life in NSW Leagues Clubs yet, as well as the fact that NRL Teams have now realised that they can no longer rely solely on their Leagues Clubs for backing. Almost all the clubs you mentioned (Nth Qld, Brisbane, and particularly Melbourne) also have substancial News Ltd backing, so they will not go anywhere whilst a 50% stake holder in the NRL is around. I'm not denying that there can be inequities in spending, but it does not mean you won't win a premiership. Both Penrith and Balmain have won the title recently without spending the entire cap. Its about buying smart, not buying big.

Besides, this is moving away from the point which is that Cronulla should be located in Adelaide, which I agree with in principle.
 

CHRIS SANDOW

Juniors
Messages
235
I reckon there will be adleast one sydney club who will fall over in the next ten years. I believe it will be either West Tigers or Cronulla, if it wasnt for Max Delmege, Manly would of been dead. As for putting another team in queensland, I reckon we should wait ten years to see how the titans fare, and put a team on the NSW Central Coast first.

After the CC team, we should look at Perth (A population over 2 million with a stadium capable in Members Equity Stadium). All it needs is private investors, and wasnt really given a fair go during the super league war. A crowd of 15-000- 20,000 would be easily achieved. Surely the corporate dollars from mining companies would be huge for the WA reds. They need a team in the NRL before 2020 surely. Their would be huge playing talent in the Western Australian region despite AFL's dominance.
 

BrisVegas

Juniors
Messages
892
Attempts to get a 3rd team in Qld were around a long time before the ARL vs ASL war. The idea back then though was to help the QRL wrestle control of the game in Qld away from the Broncos.

Also, we are talking about one loss, not years in succession. In other cases, clubs like Penrith who have basically franchised out throughout NSW gear their club to trade in negative profit vs loss for tax purposes. Trust me when I say one bad year doesn't mean that teams are down the toilet in Sydney. Budget cuts and retrenchings happen throughout every industry, Qantas have been in the news recently for exactly that reason. Doesn't mean they will stop flying planes.

There is a lot of life in NSW Leagues Clubs yet, as well as the fact that NRL Teams have now realised that they can no longer rely solely on their Leagues Clubs for backing. Almost all the clubs you mentioned (Nth Qld, Brisbane, and particularly Melbourne) also have substancial News Ltd backing, so they will not go anywhere whilst a 50% stake holder in the NRL is around. I'm not denying that there can be inequities in spending, but it does not mean you won't win a premiership. Both Penrith and Balmain have won the title recently without spending the entire cap. Its about buying smart, not buying big.

Besides, this is moving away from the point which is that Cronulla should be located in Adelaide, which I agree with in principle.


Good post Scott Gourley's Lovechild

Although the Crushers were formed in 1992 (when the Broncos were displaying their dominance), by the time they were to field a squad in 1995 SL was rumbling into existence.

And yes we are talking about a loss over a single year, but it is cause for concern. The fundamentals of the Leagues Club industry have changed, it's not simply a poor year trading due to some once off factor.

You make a good point about some debt being a good thing for clubs (The Broncos make millions in profit every year and still have some debt on the books for taxation purposed) but it is a trend towards consistent yearly losses that is a concern.


Take the Panthers for example. Their books were in such a bad shape that they had to sell half the organisation to ING in attempt to refinance and eliminate their debt:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/nsw/newcastle/200705/s1915992.htm

And even then with their debt eliminated they had to put a request in to the NSW government to defer payment of taxes as they simply didn't have the money:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/nrl/story/0,,23635884-14823,00.html

Then with all the coaching dramas they had at the end of the year, was the realisation that the only reason they didn't sack Elliot was that they didn't have the money to pay him out, and that they still had to cut the football department budget by half a million dollars in 2009:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/sport/nrl/story/0,26799,24371737-5012662,00.html


While you make an interesting point about inequity in spending not being a barrier to success, those clubs that spend less never achieve consistent success. Both the Panthers and Wests Tigers may have won a premiership, but both clubs quickly sunk to the bottom hlaf of the NRL ladder once again. The Tigers have made the Finals once in their existance and the Panther have played finals football in just three of the 11 years of the NRL.

No matter how smart you buy, if a team like Brisbane is out spending you 3-to-1 off the field they are going to be the more successful team over a prolonged period of time.


As for News Ltd backing - The NQLD Cowboys are no longer owned by News Ltd and the Broncos are a profit making entity, they take nothing from News. Melbourne are the only club relying on News for continual support.
 

Brownie.Kougari

Juniors
Messages
1,652
As much as I'd like to see the Coast have its own team I cant see the population supporting it the way Ipswich would.

At the moment they're trying to force the population inland and away from the overcrowded coastal areas so there's massive expansion of the Ipswich corridoor with satellite town/cities going up all over the place. It's getting to the point where Ipswich is asking for its own top shelf CBD, something which would send a lot more coorporate jobs out west and, with them, more white collar industry, followed by the service industry jobs to service them, etc, etc. With that sort of infrastructure going up Ipswich will soon be a new inland Gold Coast with the corporate backing to match which would help their cause a great deal.

Not only that but Ipswich will be a centralised population from a semi-rural background- always a better demographic for football. If you're in Ipswich you're gonna have nothing else to do so you may as well go to the footy :)sarcasm: anyone from Ipswich gonna bite?).

They also have the perk of being on the railline straight to the gate of Lang Park. It's a fair way from the end of the line but it's still possible to play home games out of the world's greatest League stadium without too much difficulty. I cant see the government releasing too much money in the future for new football stadiums so that will be a big boost to their chances.

The Sunny Coast, as 'glamarous' as it is, is spread out over several population centres without the transport infrastructure. From what I can gather they're looking at Caloundra for the QLD Cup team which places it on the southern end of Noosa/Maroochydore/Caloundra which isn't the best scenario for transporting 10,000 odd footy fans back to M'dore or Noosa via public transport.

Remember, Skilled Park, the last stadium funded by the government, has no carparking. They did that on purpose and I cant see them being more car friendly with the next one. And getting the money for a brand new stadium will start the mother of all biyatch fights with the aerial ping pong set on the Goldie which have already been knocked back. The Titans may have sucked up all the political capital for footy infrastructure for a while.

Finally, the Coast is the coast which makes it triathelete/surf country. I may be demographic sterotyping here but with surfing etc coastal areas are a lot more diversified when it comes to entertainment. That means a smaller population, that is a harder sell, without an established football ground. Can you see the Hasting Street set from Noosa travelling to the footy?

I'd love to see a battle of the beaches between the Sunshine and Gold Coasts (I'd even think about switching alliances) and it would definitely be possible given the right circumstances but a well established Ipswich Jets would just be a bit too hard to go past in every aspect outside of the classiness factor.

That's just my opinion anyway.

I've got the answer, bring in the MIGHTY SEAGULLS!! :D

I hear what you're saying but there's quite a difference in populations between the two cities.

I've posted these figures a few times this year but they're useful here:

Ipswich
2005 - 135,500
2026 - 318,500

Sunny Coast (estimated as I'm adding all the councils together)
2005 - 395,000 (add 50,000 Redcliffe bogans if you like)
2026 - 603,000 (Pine Rivers will get another 70,000 people too and that would take this figure up to 673,000)

Brisbane
2005 - 948,000
2026 - 1,153,00

Gold Coast
2005 - 475,000
2026 - 719,000

Logan
2005 - 173,500
2026 - 200,000

Redlands
2005 - 126,000
2026 - 156,000 (note the difference in growth between Redlands and Ipswich, this is what we mean when we say they're turning people away from the coast)
 
Messages
23,958
Good post Scott Gourley's Lovechild

Although the Crushers were formed in 1992 (when the Broncos were displaying their dominance), by the time they were to field a squad in 1995 SL was rumbling into existence.

And yes we are talking about a loss over a single year, but it is cause for concern. The fundamentals of the Leagues Club industry have changed, it's not simply a poor year trading due to some once off factor.

You make a good point about some debt being a good thing for clubs (The Broncos make millions in profit every year and still have some debt on the books for taxation purposed) but it is a trend towards consistent yearly losses that is a concern.


Take the Panthers for example. Their books were in such a bad shape that they had to sell half the organisation to ING in attempt to refinance and eliminate their debt:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/nsw/newcastle/200705/s1915992.htm

And even then with their debt eliminated they had to put a request in to the NSW government to defer payment of taxes as they simply didn't have the money:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/nrl/story/0,,23635884-14823,00.html

Then with all the coaching dramas they had at the end of the year, was the realisation that the only reason they didn't sack Elliot was that they didn't have the money to pay him out, and that they still had to cut the football department budget by half a million dollars in 2009:

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/sport/nrl/story/0,26799,24371737-5012662,00.html


While you make an interesting point about inequity in spending not being a barrier to success, those clubs that spend less never achieve consistent success. Both the Panthers and Wests Tigers may have won a premiership, but both clubs quickly sunk to the bottom hlaf of the NRL ladder once again. The Tigers have made the Finals once in their existance and the Panther have played finals football in just three of the 11 years of the NRL.

No matter how smart you buy, if a team like Brisbane is out spending you 3-to-1 off the field they are going to be the more successful team over a prolonged period of time.


As for News Ltd backing - The NQLD Cowboys are no longer owned by News Ltd and the Broncos are a profit making entity, they take nothing from News. Melbourne are the only club relying on News for continual support.
Brisbane have always been a club that buys smart, and on the cheap. For example Justin Hodges took the money and ran to Easts, but came back to Brisbane for personal success at the toll of less money. Now that "Saint Wayne of Kogarah" has left Red Hill, I have to wonder at the level of success that Ivan Henjak can have on the cheap. Even Ivan's son would not be able to cope with what Ivan expects from his 1st Grade team on and off the field.

Nth Qld have reflected what happens when the News Ltd cash mat is pulled from under your legs: continual finals berths to being lucky to avoid a certain type of spoon. Whilst Neil Henry will be a good coach, how Graham Murray, with GF success, cannot get a side off the bottom of the ladder on 2008 says a lot about the dedication of the players than the coaching staff. I personally think there are a lot of people in Townsville who need to have a long hard look at themselves before criticising other people.

Penrith are a very unusual club on and off the field. You can see nothing out of them for a decade, then they will win the title, then dissapear into oblivion for another decade. One has to remember that it is Panthers Leagues at Penrith that NSW has to thank for the Pokies Tax on clubs (and don't get me started on that; the tax should be on pubs not clubs!). They are one of the more successful clubs since the early 90's, whereas clubs like Cronulla, Parramatta, Souths, and (unfortunatly) St George have not displayed the success that Penrith have shown.
 

Brownie.Kougari

Juniors
Messages
1,652
Brisbane have always been a club that buys smart, and on the cheap. For example Justin Hodges took the money and ran to Easts, but came back to Brisbane for personal success at the toll of less money. Now that "Saint Wayne of Kogarah" has left Red Hill, I have to wonder at the level of success that Ivan Henjak can have on the cheap. Even Ivan's son would not be able to cope with what Ivan expects from his 1st Grade team on and off the field.

Nth Qld have reflected what happens when the News Ltd cash mat is pulled from under your legs: continual finals berths to being lucky to avoid a certain type of spoon. Whilst Neil Henry will be a good coach, how Graham Murray, with GF success, cannot get a side off the bottom of the ladder on 2008 says a lot about the dedication of the players than the coaching staff. I personally think there are a lot of people in Townsville who need to have a long hard look at themselves before criticising other people.

Penrith are a very unusual club on and off the field. You can see nothing out of them for a decade, then they will win the title, then dissapear into oblivion for another decade. One has to remember that it is Panthers Leagues at Penrith that NSW has to thank for the Pokies Tax on clubs (and don't get me started on that; the tax should be on pubs not clubs!). They are one of the more successful clubs since the early 90's, whereas clubs like Cronulla, Parramatta, Souths, and (unfortunatly) St George have not displayed the success that Penrith have shown.

That had nothing to do with News and everything to do with the coach being sacked. How you manage to blame that on News is beyond me...
 
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