Anti-Sheens Mob Going Off Too Early

[Gus22]

The pitch fork and torch wielding lynch mob gradually assembling behind Themanonthehill seem to be getting ready to make a beeline to Sheens' property (effigies at the ready). They may be best advised to keep their powder dry for little while however.

The doomsayers themselves are only too aware that there is enough talent in the current squad to figure prominently in a Finals series and perhaps even emulate the feats of 2005. This point must be true otherwise there would not be such a furor about missing out on a Finals berth this year merely on points differential. Even a top four finish was only marginally missed and could have been easily attained with a modicum of luck in any number of 1 to 2 point losses. Should good luck in '08 compensate for the previous years bad luck (just as it did in '05 after a luckless '04), then all those currently baying for Sheens' blood would look near sighted and foolish.

This is not to say that the achievements of 2007 were good or even acceptable. They weren't. Given the talent available, the report card on the 2007 Wests Tigers has a big fat red "D" blotched in the top right hand corner. Honest self appraisal would reveal that changes need to be made and some of the decision required will be tough ones to commit to. Replacing Sheens with an unknown quantity would be a knee-jerk reaction and not a smart move.

One of the tough decisions I speak of is the required overhaul of the dreadfully ineffective defensive strategies and methods the team exhibits. Simmons, as the co-coordinator of this facet of the game must make way for someone with a new approach. Defense has always been a problem, even back in '05. People were readily praising the constant effectiveness of the teams scrambling defense but at the same time failing to recognise that for a good scrambling tackle to be made the initial front line defense must have failed.

All forms of statistics have been trotted out about Sheens winning percentage over the past decade as pointer to his apparently justifiable axing. I suggest that even if a coach has a 20% win ratio for 5 years and wins a Premiership in his sixth year, then his planning and strategies must be credited for reaching the ultimate objective. Sheens win ration is nothing like 20% and the Tigers have been competitive in every season he has been in charge. Throw a Premiership (or 3) onto his CV, along with the fact that he has introduced many junior development schemes (which were only ever realistically expected to bear fruit in 06,07,08), and you are hard pressed to make an intelligent, fair minded argument for Sheens' head along with the scraping of his plans.

Mistakes have been made, particularly in player retention/recruitment, and salary cap management, but it is only with the benefit of hindsight that anyone of us can point the finger at an apparent bad call. Sheens, having jumped onto a sinking ship in 2003 then quickly salvaging the situation, planning for the future, and incredibly winning the race for ultimate prize in his patched up junk deserves the benefit of any doubt about the course he has set for the club. For the next year at least, he should be given the full support of all concerned, to carry on with his plans. If, and only if, 2008 turns out to be a losing season should we consider other options.

These are my thoughts on the matter. Long winded as it may be, this post is a mere blip on the radar compared to all the anti-Sheens crap that has appeared on this forum lately.

 

[weststigerman]

Agree with most of that.

Problems are with defense and recruitment. If Royce is the main defensive coach as we are led to believe, he should go. Defense needs a complete overhaul, ever since early 05 we have had big problems in defense, especially when it comes to stopping offloads.

Recruitment is a bit different, nobody here knows how much cash we have available and how much freedom Sheens has. If he is responsible for all signings, then somebody else should be doing it. As for everyone giving it to Mcdonnell for signing his son, I would think he is on a pretty small contract, and I would be filthy if he wasn't, but nobody here knows what he is on. I'm actually more concerned about how much we paid for Bronson, as he was the flavour of the month when we signed him.

People wanting Sheens gone really need to consider who is available to replace him. I'd assume most of those people started following the club in 05. Short memories.

 

[HOT028]

we al assume the problem is recuritment but we dont really know what kind of talent we have as sheens only plays the same players all year. he must go or change.

 

[Estoboy]

For the record, i tend to agree with alot of that and am by no means a part of the Anti-Sheens mob

 

[Gus22]

Hey Chicken Little, the sky is NOT falling!
It wasn't at the end of 2004 and it isn't now.
Be honest, what did you think of Sheens after that year and early on in 2005?

After all, he had Reynolds and Fitzy playing 5/8 at times. He had Farah playing limited time or in Reggies. He persisted with Elford, Oniell, Wilson who looked like they were past their best. He even stuck with Prince who struggled in 04. Remained adament that Benji was a match winner despite his inexperience and injury record. He had bought hacks in Sattler and Graham, and according to your stats his overall winning percentage was lower then, than it is now. By your logic he should have been cut loose then.

Think back and be honest, - given the chance would you have punted Sheens at the start (or half way through) 2005?

 

[rupertpupkin]

Mistakes have been made, particularly in player retention/recruitment, and salary cap management, but it is only with the benefit of hindsight that anyone of us can point the finger at an apparent bad call.

Must disagree on this particular point. There have been a number of blunders that were obvious from the get go. Often the move passes with a justification that "time will tell... etc". When it fails, or worse, bites us later, the excuse becomes "We couldnt have known at the time...etc". But it was known. If not with supernatural prediction, at least with a generous serve of certainty.

This is not about "getting rid of Sheens". But about recruitment, retention, upgrades and extensions. As well as team selection. This requires oversight and less tunnel vision.

 

[Ninja]

FFS, He personally selected Moodie. A slow crap winger in 2004.

Now Im no coach but even I, average joe punter, used common sense and realised Moodie would be even worse 3 years on even before he stepped one foot onto a footy field.

For that one ridiculous decision alone, he deserves instant dismissal!!

 

[Gus22]

Must disagree on this particular point. There have been a number of blunders that were obvious from the get go. Often the move passes with a justification that "time will tell... etc". When it fails, or worse, bites us later, the excuse becomes "We couldnt have known at the time...etc". But it was known. If not with supernatural prediction, at least with a generous serve of certainty.

This is not about "getting rid of Sheens". But about recruitment, retention, upgrades and extensions. As well as team selection. This requires oversight and less tunnel vision.

Agreed. I believe however, that Sheens is better equiped and qualified to make those decision than any other alternative option thrown up as yet. Sheens is not infallible nor beyond reproach. He has made some mind boggling decisions along the way (Moodie, Peter Lewis for example), but overall I'm yet to be convinced there is someone available who is more likely to win us another Premiership right now. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Ninja]

Hey Chicken Little, the sky is NOT falling!
It wasn't at the end of 2004 and it isn't now.
Be honest, what did you think of Sheens after that year and early on in 2005?

After all, he had Reynolds and Fitzy playing 5/8 at times. He had Farah playing limited time or in Reggies. He persisted with Elford, Oniell, Wilson who looked like they were past their best. He even stuck with Prince who struggled in 04. Remained adament that Benji was a match winner despite his inexperience and injury record. He had bought hacks in Sattler and Graham, and according to your stats his overall winning percentage was lower then, than it is now. By your logic he should have been cut loose then.

Think back and be honest, - given the chance would you have punted Sheens at the start (or half way through) 2005?

Anyone would have taken that team to the GF in '05. We had a superstar team that enjoyed playing Harlem Globetrotter footy.

Sheens had no control over that team nor did he WANT that team. Remember him whinging about losing gun players like Senter Sattler and Moodie? Wake up. 2005 was a fluke for Sheens

 

[Vicious]

A man of Sheens` knowledge should of known full and well that you can`t manufacture a bloke in his mid 20`s with very limited ball skills into being a replacement for a very dominant halfback. Reports were around for 2 seasons, start of `2006 and again at the start of `2007 that Manly would of happily released Michael Monaghan if another club was willing to buy his contract out. I know Michael Monaghan isn`t exactly Andrew Johns, but i`m very confident that if we had Monaghan in out number 7 jersey from the start of this season instead of John Morris that we`d still be in the last 6 of the competition as we speak !!!
And i will never agree with turning good sized centres with good speed for their size into back rowers ??? First Bronson, then Halatau, then Rocky Trimarchi and now Danny Galea (who is a player that i believe is possibly better suited to the back row because of his lack of explosiveness). You can`t tell me that Bronson is any slower than players such as Isolia Soliola ??? And i`m positive that he would of been just as good a defender and a more dangerous ball runner than Paul Whatuira in the centres ???
I`m wondering if Mal Meninga was around these days and Sheens was his coach, would he play him as a back rower ???
In his defence, Sheens usally eventually sees the light and gets rid of players once they are reaching their used by dates, thank god he`s finally let go with the Fitzhenry fascination !!!
Finally, if it is true that Sheens has agreed to terms with the Dragons for `2009 and this gets proven, would it really be worthwhile having him coach us next season ???

 

[Gus22]

Anyone would have taken that team to the GF in '05. We had a superstar team that enjoyed playing Harlem Globetrotter footy.

Sheens had no control over that team nor did he WANT that team. Remember him whinging about losing gun players like Senter Sattler and Moodie? Wake up. 2005 was a fluke for Sheens

Absolute rubbish.
That gem has lowered the credability of anything you post on the subject, here-on-end.

 

[Ninja]

Absolute rubbish.
That gem has lowered the credability of anything you post on the subject, here-on-end.

LOL If you say so Gus!

If Sheens got his way that year and Senter Satts Moodie hung around for another year you still think we'd have won the big one? I for one highly doubt it, We had a couple of mongs in that team- Buckets and Fitz- but they were able to be carried by the sheer brilliance of Benji, Prince, Patty, Farah and Hodgo. Any more of Sheens mongs and we had no hope.

 

[super_coach]

We are now in 2007 not 2005--if the ceo of woolies turns a billion dollar profit in 2005 and than has two disaster years do you think the board would say thats okay he did the job in 2005.
From a recruitment point of view, he is not a coach that a lot of players are attracted to. Players are not jumping out of their skin to come to the tigers.
Anyway the bottom line we have him for another year and on the surface next year looks a lot bleaker than this year. So by all means bring all my anti Sheens posts out this time next year if we a powering through the final series. But Iam more than confident we will finish in the bottom three under the guru and his mates

 

[rupertpupkin]

As for everyone giving it to Mcdonnell for signing his son, I would think he is on a pretty small contract, and I would be filthy if he wasn't, but nobody here knows what he is on.

This is a justification that is often used. Cannot say for sure what the pricetag would be, but gut feeling says it is a lot more than economy bin. In any case, if the logic can be applied in this instance, why not for Cashmere? We know how little it would have taken to keep him. Even IF the dud purchases in 05 HAD panned out, Cashmere would still have been an astute buy. As it is WT still lacks players like Cashmere. Galloway is sort of similar, but consider the running costs. If the argument can be made that Macdonnell is "worth it", on a (bewilderingly timed) extension, for a "small amount" (which is not certain)- taking into account that WT is hardly bereft of outside backs- why wasn't Cashmere worth it, for a good prop, which WT are sorely lacking?

 

[Vicious]

What is Halatau gonna do for us next season ??? Except for playing for BRET and wasting over $150,000 in cap money ???

 

[The Fruit Pickers]

Anyone would have taken that team to the GF in '05. We had a superstar team that enjoyed playing Harlem Globetrotter footy.

Sheens had no control over that team nor did he WANT that team. Remember him whinging about losing gun players like Senter Sattler and Moodie? Wake up. 2005 was a fluke for Sheens

This is a gee up isn’t it Ninja, it has to be, c’mon Ninja, you are not really serious and this statement is a laugh, right?

 

[crouching_tiger]

Beats the hell out of me why Sheens and Co. refuse to give one of our PL stars a contract. This kid has not put a foot wrong all year and has carried both lower grades to the finals. Someone needs their butt kicked!!

 

[weststigerman]

This is a justification that is often used. Cannot say for sure what the pricetag would be, but gut feeling says it is a lot more than economy bin. In any case, if the logic can be applied in this instance, why not for Cashmere? We know how little it would have taken to keep him. Even IF the dud purchases in 05 HAD panned out, Cashmere would still have been an astute buy. As it is WT still lacks players like Cashmere. Galloway is sort of similar, but consider the running costs. If the argument can be made that Macdonnell is "worth it", on a (bewilderingly timed) extension, for a "small amount" (which is not certain)- taking into account that WT is hardly bereft of outside backs- why wasn't Cashmere worth it, for a good prop, which WT are sorely lacking?

I can't answer that one, I have no idea why they refused to offer Cashmere a contract. Perhaps the powers that be thought that with Galloway and O'Hara already signed they thought we had plenty of front row options. That was a f*ck up with recruitment.

Also, on Morris, he was definitely the best half option available at the time so I would not blame recruitment for signing him. The others available from memory were Travis Burns(Worse than Morris IMO), and Kurt Gidley(good player but not a half), I'm still filthy we didn't keep an open mind and look at Josh Lewis/Jamie Soward when they were being released earlier this year.

 

[Ninja]

Also, on Morris, he was definitely the best half option available at the time so I would not blame recruitment for signing him. The others available from memory were Travis Burns(Worse than Morris IMO), and Kurt Gidley(good player but not a half), I'm still filthy we didn't keep an open mind and look at Josh Lewis/Jamie Soward when they were being released earlier this year.

I love this excuse - Hes not great but he was the best available at the time blah blah...

So why sign him for 3 f**king years for big dollars??

I consider that a major f**k up

 

[BuffaloRules]

When we miss the 8 again in 2008 he will be punted, but in the meantime it will be another year down the drain...

I was a fan of the guy for what he did in 2005, but as others have said, no one can live on past glories in todays world..

His selection and recruitment policies exhibited over the last two years have been diabolical to say the least...

Interesting to compare him to Ricky Stuart at the Roosters.. Three grandfinals in a row,including a premiership, but two dud years and he was gone...

Why haven't we done the same to Mr Sheens?