Are the NH teams falling more behind.

[roughyedspud]

I think everyone is jumping the gun abit..and being abit harsh..

A majority of the Welsh team are Welsh..that a bonus and something to build on
Had Scotland been able to select their best team they'd be pushing Samoa & Tonga in their group...those 5-6 players they are missing drew with NZ 12 months ago let's not forget that.
Ireland are going alright..

And we have a senile dinosaur as our coach.....every single one of us can see exactly what's wrong with this England team except Wayne Bennett..and he won't change it,he can't change it cos he only saw fit to bring 1 scrum half!

 

[titoelcolombiano]

It's not as bad as it looks to me.

- Wales are missing most of their first choice 13 and are producing their own players
- Scotland are missing quite a few of their 4 nations squad that performed quite admirably just 12 months ago
- Ireland were gritty yesterday and played well against a mainly Aussie-Italian side last week - the home ground advantage is probably what pushed the Kumuls over the line yesterday
- England are looking better than I've seen them for a while
- France are missing quite a few stars that would make a serious difference to their squad

At the end of the day we have some great success stories building at the moment in Europe and many nations starting to produce home grown talent. As we've seen in RU, as the European nations slowly but surely become financially strong, it is tough for the Pacific nations to keep up so whilst the Pac teams are having their moment in the sun now, it may not always be the case if large commercial deals can be struck out of the current northern hemisphere expansion programs, especially in France, Canada and the home nations.

The Pacific sides have been hugely boosted by a few factors in this world cup:

1. The implementation of the annual Pacific Tests, this has been big because players are starting to see that if they commit to these nations they will get to play regularly - and it seems that even if it means less $$$, the Islanders want to represent their nation / heritage. It means a lot to them.

2. The 'home' world cup advantage. The Pacific players are clearly comfortable playing in New Zealand and Australia and PNG are in their element at home - that would be an intimidating environment for most teams at this world cup, let alone the whether that Wales and Ireland had to adapt to and play in.

3. PNG Hunters - the Kumuls have clearly benefited from the Hunters, their composure, defense and structure is much better than I've ever seen from a PNG team.

 

[LineBall]

So, for the Northern Hemisphere:

Regular matches involving the UK, Ireland and France are a must. As should be developing their home based leagues. Having a second French team in the superleague - if Tolouse gets in would be great. Promotion and Relegation though needs to go. I know the Brits love it, but really, for stability and growth, it's one step forwards, two steps back. Having a strong second tier competition for new teams to enter, like the Q Cup, would help. Then those teams could apply to join Superleague - for the Long term.

 

[Irish-bulldog]

So, for the Northern Hemisphere:

Regular matches involving the UK, Ireland and France are a must. As should be developing their home based leagues. Having a second French team in the superleague - if Tolouse gets in would be great. Promotion and Relegation though needs to go. I know the Brits love it, but really, for stability and growth, it's one step forwards, two steps back. Having a strong second tier competition for new teams to enter, like the Q Cup, would help. Then those teams could apply to join Superleague - for the Long term.

It really does need a strong second tier comp also, not enough talent being developed in the NH, they need better programs and coaching. It looks like they don't have the professionalism off the field either, they have all been hitting the piss while down here.

 

[Springs09]

Ok I claimed before the World Cup that our state leagues here in Australia could match it with some lower superleague clubs. I was laughed out of the room. But png just rolled Ireland, France lost to Lebanon, Scotland and wales are woeful !, the Americans deadset would beat both. Italy is full of Australians, England just beat a team of park footballers for god sake.

Then you look at the rise of png from the qld cup, Fiji, tonga, Samoa ! The standard is just dominating NH teams.

I'm genuinely concerned about the state of the standard of the superleague ?, anyone have any thoughts about what's going wrong ? What this World Cup has exposed ?.

The Super League standard has nothing to do with it. There are more Islanders playing top grade ESL than there are Frenchmen or Welsh. Even in Catalans, their top 17 last season had 7 French players and 5 players eligible for PNG, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa.

But the countries are falling behind. France, Scotland, Ireland and Wales all rely on 5-10 Super League players and fall to bits without them. France has some depth as seen but the other three completely rely on second and third tier players. Ireland has near to their best squad. Scotland and Wales can both be good at full strength. A problem is they don't have enough committed top-tier players. They rely on heritage players deciding that they feel like playing in the World Cup or Four Nations. Ireland has Grix and Finn and a few others. If Scotland were to continue I doubt they'd have any first grade players apart from Matty Russell over the next three years. No one's going to do a Taumalolo and give up playing for England for them.

Tonga and Samoa are different in that there nearly as many living in Australia and NZ than in the islands themselves. These immigrants/heritage players have helped the game grow in the islands and as long as it continues to do so there is no problem with using players based in Aus and NZ. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG also have a large number of players committed to representing their country. They field strong teams for all mid-year and end-of-year tests and most of their Kangaroo & Kiwi reps will immediately go back and represent their heritage if not picked for Aus or NZ. Depth seems to no longer be an issue with the Samoan squad still quite good despite having 10 or more first choice players out. If they can improve in producing playmakers then they will be up challenging the big guns each year.

If Scotland and Wales were filled with Super League players like Tonga are filled with NRL players then the gap would be a lot closer. As it is, their Super League players aren't the problem, it's that they have no players in Super League in the first place.

The situations are completely different. France is gradually coming back and Ireland and Wales are growing slowly but Tonga gets thousands of fans welcoming them at airports. It's beyond comparison really.

 

[Irish-bulldog]

The Super League standard has nothing to do with it. There are more Islanders playing top grade ESL than there are Frenchmen or Welsh. Even in Catalans, their top 17 last season had 7 French players and 5 players eligible for PNG, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa.

But the countries are falling behind. France, Scotland, Ireland and Wales all rely on 5-10 Super League players and fall to bits without them. France has some depth as seen but the other three completely rely on second and third tier players. Ireland has near to their best squad. Scotland and Wales can both be good at full strength. A problem is they don't have enough committed top-tier players. They rely on heritage players deciding that they feel like playing in the World Cup or Four Nations. Ireland has Grix and Finn and a few others. If Scotland were to continue I doubt they'd have any first grade players apart from Matty Russell over the next three years. No one's going to do a Taumalolo and give up playing for England for them.

Tonga and Samoa are different in that there nearly as many living in Australia and NZ than in the islands themselves. These immigrants/heritage players have helped the game grow in the islands and as long as it continues to do so there is no problem with using players based in Aus and NZ. Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG also have a large number of players committed to representing their country. They field strong teams for all mid-year and end-of-year tests and most of their Kangaroo & Kiwi reps will immediately go back and represent their heritage if not picked for Aus or NZ. Depth seems to no longer be an issue with the Samoan squad still quite good despite having 10 or more first choice players out. If they can improve in producing playmakers then they will be up challenging the big guns each year.

If Scotland and Wales were filled with Super League players like Tonga are filled with NRL players then the gap would be a lot closer. As it is, their Super League players aren't the problem, it's that they have no players in Super League in the first place.

The situations are completely different. France is gradually coming back and Ireland and Wales are growing slowly but Tonga gets thousands of fans welcoming them at airports. It's beyond comparison really.

Nice post , lots of thought gone into it. But I respectfully disagree, the SL is falling further behind the nrl, I want people to see it and address it, because it's important to have a strong NH comp.

 

[siv]

Until Europe nations and Pacific nations start touring nothing will change

You need to keep playing mmatches to grow

Lets note that Europe is improving by 5 to 10%

But the Pacific has improved 30-40%

Its not something that will change quickly.

Ireland has the right idea

But to me there is too much desire to join the ESL. Rather than building up a rival comp like the Balkans Super League

US and France need to be doing more

 

[LineBall]

Something for them to aim for then.

More opportunities for players from the home nations in Super-League, plus developing domestic Rugby League competitions are a must. Perhaps having a team from Scotland, Ireland and Wales in the 2nd Tier competition would give domestic players something to aim for, as well as increase the awareness of Rugby League in those areas. Over time, these clubs may aim for inclusion in the Super-League also.

 

[BrisbaneRhino]

This WC the islander nations have got stronger as they've kept most of those that in the past opted for NZ/Aus, and more players are making themselves available. Its a virtuous cycle - the players see the team competing and more make themselves available This started at the last World Cup, and I'd love to see the momentum kept going for Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

The situation in Scotland, Wales and Ireland is completely different. Wales may have some Welsh players but they mostly play in competitions well below those of say Lebanon's Aussie based players. As for Scotland and Ireland they simply wouldn't exist without 'heritage' players, and most of the non-NRL/SL players are way below SL standard, never mind NRL. Even their SL players are generally from the lower end of the competition - there's not a single player from Wales, Scotland or Ireland that would get in a GB team. Maybe Brough a few years ago, but none of the others.

The only way to have them competitive in the WC is much larger player pools. For the foreseeable future that means heritage players. But clearly Scotland and Wales have been particularly bad at recruiting heritage players in Australia. If the sport actually wants these teams at the WC then they need help in identifying and recruiting players. Otherwise they will continue to be OK one year and dire the next depending on who exactly is available.

If the sport doesn't help them then it'd be better all round if they were quietly dropped from the WC. But please lets not kid ourselves about developing players in those countries - its never going to happen in enough numbers. We're more likely to see a competitive homegrown Canadian/US team in my lifetime than any homegrown Wales, Scotland or Ireland.

 

[roughyedspud]

I think everyone is jumping the gun abit..and being abit harsh..

A majority of the Welsh team are Welsh..that a bonus and something to build on
Had Scotland been able to select their best team they'd be pushing Samoa & Tonga in their group...those 5-6 players they are missing drew with NZ 12 months ago let's not forget that.
Ireland are going alright..

And we have a senile dinosaur as our coach.....every single one of us can see exactly what's wrong with this England team except Wayne Bennett..and he won't change it,he can't change it cos he only saw fit to bring 1 scrum half!

And to add to that..If j-mac gets banned for that bite,it's likely, we're fxuked cos super coach only brought 2 wingers!

 

[Springs09]

Nice post , lots of thought gone into it. But I respectfully disagree, the SL is falling further behind the nrl, I want people to see it and address it, because it's important to have a strong NH comp.

I didn't say it wasn't. I said it has nothing to do with Scotland and Wales' performances at this World Cup.

Super League is behind the NRL in quality but I don't think the NRL is exactly improving. In fact with the game being dominated by a bunch of wrestling rubbish and the way the rules aren't enforced at all it's gone backwards. As a result Australia has been one of the most boring teams so far, way behind NZ, Tonga, PNG, Fiji, Ireland, France and Lebanon in terms of enjoyment.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

SL will be fine - it was only about 10 years ago that the NRL were worried about a player exodus to SL due to better money on offer.

Since then SL has expanded at amateur level throughout the UK, strengthened the English game outside of the heartlands, Wales have setup pathways from the amateur game, to the two Welsh teams at the lower end of the SL pyramid through to their professional association with Wigan, the RFL have included a second French team in the SL pyramid and are now allowing North American Expansion. If any of these expansion seeds bears the fruit of a big TV deal, the current situation could flip over and the NRL will then be scrambling to retain players again and the SL standards will rise.

Let's also not forget that SL clubs won a clean-sweep (2-0) against their NRL opponents in the World Club Series this year. Out of season or not the Broncos and Sharks were outplayed.

Things are never as bad as bad as they seem.

 

[johnny plath]

SL will be fine - it was only about 10 years ago that the NRL were worried about a player exodus to SL due to better money on offer.

Since then SL has expanded at amateur level throughout the UK, strengthened the English game outside of the heartlands, Wales have setup pathways from the amateur game, to the two Welsh teams at the lower end of the SL pyramid through to their professional association with Wigan, the RFL have included a second French team in the SL pyramid and are now allowing North American Expansion. If any of these expansion seeds bears the fruit of a big TV deal, the current situation could flip over and the NRL will then be scrambling to retain players again and the SL standards will rise.

Let's also not forget that SL clubs won a clean-sweep (2-0) against their NRL opponents in the World Club Series this year. Out of season or not the Broncos and Sharks were outplayed.

Things are never as bad as bad as they seem.

No argument that more pathways there are, the better the opportunity for improving, but I do think that maybe player development knowledge is a problem, as well as a lack of intensity in Super League as a whole, not just the top clubs. No disagreement that the Super league teams have a good record in head to head with the nrl clubs, but it tends to cover up shortfalls once you get beyond the top clubs. I think all NRL teams would be competitive against the top super league teams, but beyond the top few super league clubs they would all struggle against NRL teams.

Without playing regular tough competition, and developing players properly, nothing changes at international level. Someone wise said that practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice does. If the Super league only has six or so consistent quality teams, how do players develop if they aren't needed to be playing at their best every week of the season? This quote from Wales coach john Kear in a recent article sums it up:

"We trained at the North Queensland Cowboys training ground and those facilities just knock anything in the Super League into a cocked hat.

"So, they not only have a greater player pool, but I also believe they have got a better development path and a better performance path at the elite end and results are showing that.

"I do not want to depress everyone, but results are showing just how good the southern hemisphere teams really are."

I've said it elsewhere, but simply playing a lot of games won’t improve things if the games aren’t high standard. Domestic comps have to be strong and improving players. To use an extreme, if a player has a 300 game career in League 1, would that make him Super league or NRL ready. I doubt it. What needs to improve this aspect is probably more important than just filling spots with raw local kids.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

No argument that more pathways there are, the better the opportunity for improving, but I do think that maybe player development knowledge is a problem, as well as a lack of intensity in Super League as a whole, not just the top clubs. No disagreement that the Super league teams have a good record in head to head with the nrl clubs, but it tends to cover up shortfalls once you get beyond the top clubs. I think all NRL teams would be competitive against the top super league teams, but beyond the top few super league clubs they would all struggle against NRL teams.

Without playing regular tough competition, and developing players properly, nothing changes at international level. Someone wise said that practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice does. If the Super league only has six or so consistent quality teams, how do players develop if they aren't needed to be playing at their best every week of the season? This quote from Wales coach john Kear in a recent article sums it up:

"We trained at the North Queensland Cowboys training ground and those facilities just knock anything in the Super League into a cocked hat.

"So, they not only have a greater player pool, but I also believe they have got a better development path and a better performance path at the elite end and results are showing that.

"I do not want to depress everyone, but results are showing just how good the southern hemisphere teams really are."

I've said it elsewhere, but simply playing a lot of games won’t improve things if the games aren’t high standard. Domestic comps have to be strong and improving players. To use an extreme, if a player has a 300 game career in League 1, would that make him Super league or NRL ready. I doubt it. What needs to improve this aspect is probably more important than just filling spots with raw local kids.

I agree with you assessment of the current situation. I think the RFL are trying to address this by sowing the seeds of expansion. Let's face it, money will improve training facilities, bring better coaches and training staff to clubs and generally raise professionalism at clubs. The RFL are banking on the fact that money will come from their expansion efforts. Not a bad strategy and I sincerely hope that it pays off. Not to eclipse the NRL but at least to match it so that we have two very strong leagues in the world.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

So at the end of the group stages we've had 12 games between northern hemisphere teams and Southern Hemisphere.

SH has 11 wins and a draw and the for and against is 538-54.

So it's pretty close..

 

[titoelcolombiano]

So at the end of the group stages we've had 12 games between northern hemisphere teams and Southern Hemisphere.

SH has 11 wins and a draw and the for and against is 538-54.

So it's pretty close..

Oddly enough Italy and Lebanon are Southern Hemesphere teams when doing an exercise like this. Point taken though.

Wales and France have better squads than the ones at this cup and outside of the World Cup nations the most promising prospects for the future of the game are Serbia and Canada.

 

[Dakink]

Serbia in 15-20 years will be very interesting, as will Lebanon if they can keep developing domestically as they are.

 

[Arucard]

To be fair, Ireland have been miles ahead of Samoa in this tournament.
Quite ridiculous Samoa are going to the next stage.

 

[siv]

No argument that more pathways there are, the better the opportunity for improving, but I do think that maybe player development knowledge is a problem, as well as a lack of intensity in Super League as a whole, not just the top clubs. No disagreement that the Super league teams have a good record in head to head with the nrl clubs, but it tends to cover up shortfalls once you get beyond the top clubs. I think all NRL teams would be competitive against the top super league teams, but beyond the top few super league clubs they would all struggle against NRL teams.

Without playing regular tough competition, and developing players properly, nothing changes at international level. Someone wise said that practice doesn't make perfect, but perfect practice does. If the Super league only has six or so consistent quality teams, how do players develop if they aren't needed to be playing at their best every week of the season? This quote from Wales coach john Kear in a recent article sums it up:

"We trained at the North Queensland Cowboys training ground and those facilities just knock anything in the Super League into a cocked hat.

"So, they not only have a greater player pool, but I also believe they have got a better development path and a better performance path at the elite end and results are showing that.

"I do not want to depress everyone, but results are showing just how good the southern hemisphere teams really are."

I've said it elsewhere, but simply playing a lot of games won’t improve things if the games aren’t high standard. Domestic comps have to be strong and improving players. To use an extreme, if a player has a 300 game career in League 1, would that make him Super league or NRL ready. I doubt it. What needs to improve this aspect is probably more important than just filling spots with raw local kids.

ANY ESL player who comes out to the NRL requires around 12 reserve grade games before he becomes match fitness ready for a NRL match

Only a rare few progress faster