Attack v Defense stats = obvious problem

[sa1nt5]

Can we do worse than play McInnes at lock and bring Robson in as dummy half drop both Lats and Aitken promote Timm to the bench or use Hunt at Dummy half and Field at halfback. Jai Field has played himself into first grade and Robson just has too much Talent to remain on the outer. McInnes is tough and hard enough to play two 20 minute stints as a middle forward and with his ball playing skill he would be a handful in the middle I can see him giving full support to Timm and Vaughn when they need support runners

 

[Carlton]

Not gain anything ????
Speed for starters would be handy.
Problem us in other areas????
The loss of momentum with his entry to the game is palpable.
Your post is exactly what the coaching staff say and the reason why we never have sustainable improvement.
Stick with the status quo FMD how ingenious is that?

If you read my posts OT you would see I have been saying that Latimore is not playing as well as last year and that I would like to see Timm/Kerr given a run.

But your constant blame of Latimore for our second half collapses is nonsense. He had 12 minutes in that last game, I think you'll find there were problems for something like 50 minutes, before he was even on the field and after he had left the field.

Yes we have problems in other areas, fullback, center, lock, the make up of the bench and the quality of the bench especially now we have so many players out, the coach and his game plans.

 

[Old Timer]

If you read my posts OT you would see I have been saying that Latimore is not playing as well as last year and that I would like to see Timm/Kerr given a run.

But your constant blame of Latimore for our second half collapses is nonsense. He had 12 minutes in that last game, I think you'll find there were problems for something like 50 minutes, before he was even on the field and after he had left the field.

Yes we have problems in other areas, fullback, center, lock, the make up of the bench and the quality of the bench especially now we have so many players out, the coach and his game plans.

Carlton
IMO your post re Latimore was wishy washy at best
You basically said there was little difference between Latimore and Kerr or Timms and there was no advocacy on your part for positive change.
You also say that I blame Latimore for our 2nd half fade outs and that is incorrect.
I have never been a fan, I have always believed we have better options, I would never select him other than as captain if reggies, I always contend we lose momentum when he comes on and I have held that belief ever since we re-signed him so you need to revisit what I have constantly said and not make it sound like I blame him for our 2nd half fade outs.
The coach, his tactics, his use of the bench, his selections are what cause the fade outs whether they be first half, 2nd half, 2nd half of the season or against particular teams.
Whilst I criticise particular players and wouldn’t pick some if them I hold none of them personally accountable for our lack of consistency or success.

 

[possm]

Carlton
IMO your post re Latimore was wishy washy at best
You basically said there was little difference between Latimore and Kerr or Timms and there was no advocacy on your part for positive change.
You also say that I blame Latimore for our 2nd half fade outs and that is incorrect.
I have never been a fan, I have always believed we have better options, I would never select him other than as captain if reggies, I always contend we lose momentum when he comes on and I have held that belief ever since we re-signed him so you need to revisit what I have constantly said and not make it sound like I blame him for our 2nd half fade outs.
The coach, his tactics, his use of the bench, his selections are what cause the fade outs whether they be first half, 2nd half, 2nd half of the season or against particular teams.
Whilst I criticise particular players and wouldn’t pick some if them I hold none of them personally accountable for our lack of consistency or success.

It is clear to me that Timm, Kerr and Pearson should be in the 17. Did you get that Mary?

 

[j0nesy]

It is clear to me that Timm, Kerr and Pearson should be in the 17. Did you get that Mary?

Pearson leading the stats for errors. I’m not convinced. Timm and Kerr I agree with. Although it looks like K Simms is ready to go.

 

[Dragonslayer]

btw is there a stat breakdown on line breaks or tackle breaks? I'd be interested in that. Thanks for the hard work anyway

Watatank:
I did some research and these stats also make interesting reading:
As a club we:
Rank 10/16 for line breaks with 31 (leaders Warriors and Rabbits with 41), and
Rank equal 2nd for tackle breaks with 304 (leader Storm with 335)

Looking at these per round is also interesting:
Rd1 V Cows: LB 3 against 5, TB 36 against 26
Rd2 V Rabbits: LB 4 against 6, TB 33 against 29
Rd3 V Broncos: LB 7 against 1, TB 40 against 35
Rd4 V Knights: LB 2 against 2, TB 35 against 29
Rd5 V Dogs: LB 5 against 2, TB 36 against 11
Rd6 V Manly: LB 0 against 2, TB 25 against 17
Rd7 V Roosters: LB 4 against 4, TB 25 against 33
Rd8 V Eels: LB 2 against 8, TB 36 against 33
Rd9 V Warriors: LB 2 against 8, TB 38 against 23

Total LB = 31 against 35 and TB 304 against 234

Only in 2 games did we achieve more LB than the opposition (and funny enough we won both those games). To me this shows we are really content with bash and barge type football where 5 hit ups and then kick. We don't look to put a player through a gap from passing. LB seem more of a coincidence than a tactic.

For TB its a different story (only once losing this stat in 9 rounds) and it has impact on the stat of LB imo. It seems using the bash and barge mentality does have some dividends, we are tough to tackle and get to the ground, however, we always seem to do this one out, no-one backing up, but we did see the result of someone backing up last week when first Vaughan took the pass from JG and then as he was tackled passed to Field who streaked away to score. This was more of a shock apparently as we didn't see it again it that game.
Breaking tackles is great but useless if you do nothing after it, otherwise its just burning energy and encourages fatigue.

 

[possm]

Pearson leading the stats for errors. I’m not convinced. Timm and Kerr I agree with. Although it looks like K Simms is ready to go.

Well that is a prime example of what I've been on about with Millward. Nightingale and Macdonald depart and we are served up Rava and Pearson who both at first galance seem to be not suitable for first grade. Pereira is a very good stoop gap left winger however, once Saab comes through, he too will find himself in reserve grade.

Good to hear that k Sims may be available this week, we really need the impact he provides off the bench. I notice Timm is not mentioned on the first grade list or the reserve grade list, is he injured.

 

[j0nesy]

Well that is a prime example of what I've been on about with Millward. Nightingale and Macdonald depart and we are served up Rava and Pearson who both at first galance seem to be not suitable for first grade. Pereira is a very good stoop gap left winger however, once Saab comes through, he too will find himself in reserve grade.

Good to hear that k Sims may be available this week, we really need the impact he provides off the bench. I notice Timm is not mentioned on the first grade list or the reserve grade list, is he injured.

I agree we should have signed a winger or held onto the ones we had. The three we picked up (Pearson, Maranta and Rav) all have their issues. If we missed out on the likes of Ferguson and Oates, we should have held onto Garrick or Herbert or gone after Morris.

Pereira looks ok though and we resigned him. So it’s only really right wing that we’re short on. Saab does look good but is a couple of years off first grade at least.

Timm must be injures because he had made his way ahead of Kerr in Mary’s pecking order. Although I haven’t heard anything.

 

[SnowDragon]

After our dismal showings over the last 3 weeks (and overall in 2019), there had to be some evidence that identified what is going wrong. From the stats below, it pretty damn obvious we have a problem in our attack and defence ie: trys scored against trys conceeded.

So, I have broken this down into:
First 30 mins (0-30)
Middle 30 mins (30-60)
Final 20 mins (60-80)

First 30:
Trys scored = 13
Trys conceeded = 6

Mid 30:
Trys scored = 8
Trys conceeded = 16

Final 20:
Trys scored = 7
Trys conceeded = 11

As you can see we blast out of the blocks for the first 30 mins, this is when we have starting pack. Mcgregor usually makes the first change (exception being the debarkle in rd9) between the 25th-30th min mark (barring injury). This when we bring on the likes of Lats and co. As you can see up to half time and by the time they are usually replaced (around the 60th min) it all turns to a pile of crap. The momentum gained in the first 30 is lost and momentum and confidence has swung to the opposition. The final 20 is spent trying to arrest back the monentum which at this late stage is too much a mountain to climb.

Its already been discussed ad-nauseum about our bench usage and who sits on it, but these stats really highlight our concerns.

Lats (i'm not blaminv him because he doesnt pick himself) and carrying a back on the bench is ludicris and this evidence proves why.

We need 4 forwards on the bench, who have enthusiasm and drive, 2 props, 1 edge and a utility who can play hooker or edge forward.
With the decision on JDB coming this week which will go a long way in determining our team moving forward.

With JDB:
Bench- Lawrie, K. Sims (Timm until he is fit), Leilua, Robson (if he leaves I'd promote Lovodua)

Without JDB:
Bench- K.Sims (Kerr until he returns), Timm, Leilua, Robson (or Lovodua as above).

With Team List Tuesday upon us surely McGregor has analysed our attack and defensive woes, but again we are talking McGregor.

Really nice post mate.

I tend to try not to go with the flow. But, this backs up some comments made on site, and although stats can be chosen to make the story you want, I think that in this case it all rings true.

Our bench rotation isn’t working as it should!

Blame Lats, the bench composition, the coaches timing or whoever... but this makes me want to consider changes. The team look tired in the forwards, so I feel like infusing some youth reserves makes sense. They will likely make mistakes, but we need the energy and the experience may be required in a few weeks thru origin and late in the year.

Should we consider 4 forwards on the bench? Or can we utilise a player like Aitken as a forward to allow the flexibility of a back replacement?

Should we look at starting with a young prop and bringing on experience after 20mins in order not to have our weakest possible pack on the field at some time?

I think the team can still win it this year, our best is good enough to take on the rorters, the bunnies or whoever! But we definitely need to get it together, and before we drift too far on the ladder.

GO THE DRAGONS!

 

[Carlton]

Carlton
IMO your post re Latimore was wishy washy at best
You basically said there was little difference between Latimore and Kerr or Timms and there was no advocacy on your part for positive change.
You also say that I blame Latimore for our 2nd half fade outs and that is incorrect.
I have never been a fan, I have always believed we have better options, I would never select him other than as captain if reggies, I always contend we lose momentum when he comes on and I have held that belief ever since we re-signed him so you need to revisit what I have constantly said and not make it sound like I blame him for our 2nd half fade outs.
The coach, his tactics, his use of the bench, his selections are what cause the fade outs whether they be first half, 2nd half, 2nd half of the season or against particular teams.
Whilst I criticise particular players and wouldn’t pick some if them I hold none of them personally accountable for our lack of consistency or success.

OT you have stated in your post we lost momentum when Latimore came on, you may not have said "I blame him" but the inference was clear. And dont tell me you dont get personal with players, if that was true you wouldn't be referring to "plodder" and "turnstile" all the time. But dont let the truth get in the way of the facts.

My comment about Timm/Kerr was not to run down their abilities, I was say that we shouldn't expect too much of them if they are called up (they are young, new to first grade and will need time to show their best). I have stated I would like Latimore changed but the reality is I dont think that they are really the answer in the short term, we need another first grade prop in the team (which we dont have in the club due to injuries and recruitment).

Would I like us to recruit one? Yes As a priority? No.

I would like a top flight fullback as a priority, then either a quality center and/or winger. At the moment we are short in the forwards mainly due to injury/suspension.

 

[possm]

I agree we should have signed a winger or held onto the ones we had. The three we picked up (Pearson, Maranta and Rav) all have their issues. If we missed out on the likes of Ferguson and Oates, we should have held onto Garrick or Herbert or gone after Morris.

Pereira looks ok though and we resigned him. So it’s only really right wing that we’re short on. Saab does look good but is a couple of years off first grade at least.

Timm must be injures because he had made his way ahead of Kerr in Mary’s pecking order. Although I haven’t heard anything.

• There were also other options available at the time.
• Nearly half way into the season, we have not used Pearson or Maranta.
• Timm was not listed in the first grade or reserve grade sides for this wound.
• Saab is eligible for selection in first grade after June 30. Given that skilled young players are being selected for first grade in other clubs, I'd say give him a go; we need speed on our wings.
• To me, not using our talented young guns is not a good tactic given the fact that we lose players like J Bird and Robson to other clubs because we do not test them. What if Robson turned out to be twice the player McInnes is? Mary prefers McInnes over Robson without really knowing how Robson would go. Same goes for Lomax over Aitken. It seems to me that Mary protects his favourite players from competition for first grade selection; not really in the best interest of the club and our wish to put the best possible 17 on the field.

 

[Bill Dragon]

Mary has obviously found a deficiency in Euan's game. What I don't get is why has he moved him to the bench? Surely if a player needs to work on a deficiency, he does it in reserve grade...

 

[Dragonslayer]

Well that is a prime example of what I've been on about with Millward. Nightingale and Macdonald depart and we are served up Rava and Pearson who both at first galance seem to be not suitable for first grade. Pereira is a very good stoop gap left winger however, once Saab comes through, he too will find himself in reserve grade.

Good to hear that k Sims may be available this week, we really need the impact he provides off the bench. I notice Timm is not mentioned on the first grade list or the reserve grade list, is he injured.

Possm,
Saab won't be anywhere near ready for 1st grade this year and maybe not even next year.
He's a big lad at 196cm tall but his body frame needs a lot of development and filling out. He's a string bean at the monent. Even his Dragons profile states he'll be looking at 2021 before being elevated to the top 30, not saying it wont happen sooner but he does need development time. By the way he has a 4yr contract with us. Also, he's not express pace, but someone may confirm, he's about the same as Periera speed wise.
Oh, and he's mostly a right winger, not a left.

 

[hazzbeen]

I have a solution to alllllllll of this , SACK MARY .......

 

[Walpole]

Mary has obviously found a deficiency in Euan's game. What I don't get is why has he moved him to the bench? Surely if a player needs to work on a deficiency, he does it in reserve grade...

Unfortunately I think Mary heavily favours Aitken over Lomax. Zac only got the gig for his goal kicking - wouldn't be surprised to see Lomax back on the bench this week and Field kicking.

 

[possm]

Mary has obviously found a deficiency in Euan's game. What I don't get is why has he moved him to the bench? Surely if a player needs to work on a deficiency, he does it in reserve grade...

I agree with you on this one however, I did imagine that Mary would test him as a backrower off the bench but unfortunately he did not.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Mary has obviously found a deficiency in Euan's game. What I don't get is why has he moved him to the bench? Surely if a player needs to work on a deficiency, he does it in reserve grade...

Easy answer is that (according) McGregor still sees him as a SOO candidate, this keeps him in the frame, and with the depleted stocks of centres atm, nothing would surprise me.

 

[Old Timer]

OT you have stated in your post we lost momentum when Latimore came on, you may not have said "I blame him" but the inference was clear. And dont tell me you dont get personal with players, if that was true you wouldn't be referring to "plodder" and "turnstile" all the time. But dont let the truth get in the way of the facts.

My comment about Timm/Kerr was not to run down their abilities, I was say that we shouldn't expect too much of them if they are called up (they are young, new to first grade and will need time to show their best). I have stated I would like Latimore changed but the reality is I dont think that they are really the answer in the short term, we need another first grade prop in the team (which we dont have in the club due to injuries and recruitment).

Would I like us to recruit one? Yes As a priority? No.

I would like a top flight fullback as a priority, then either a quality center and/or winger. At the moment we are short in the forwards mainly due to injury/suspension.

Carlton
Indeed I do refer to Lats as ponderous, cumbersome, a plodder etc etc and I do also say other things about other players but I never blame them for the losses.
You would be extremely hard pressed to find a post where I directly blame a player for the loss. My contention that we lose because we pick them is not the same as blaming the player for the loss.
The coaching staff and procurement staff and the selection staff are responsible for the roster and who plays each week.
On the basis of how we currently pick our teams and manage our bench I propose we will battle to win >50% of our games and therefore never be real contenders.
The players don't select themselves so if they have deficiencies that is part and parcel of them as a player my contention is that due to the plodding nature or the inability to tackle or read defence there are more than enough reasons not to pick several of them.
We lose because we do pick them and continue to do so.
My references or descriptions of them are the reasons I wouldn't pick them nothing more nothing less (they are what they are) but I contend we will never be much better than what we are as a team until such times as some of the players in 1st grade are banished to CC.

 

[Carlton]

Carlton
Indeed I do refer to Lats as ponderous, cumbersome, a plodder etc etc and I do also say other things about other players but I never blame them for the losses.
You would be extremely hard pressed to find a post where I directly blame a player for the loss. My contention that we lose because we pick them is not the same as blaming the player for the loss.
The coaching staff and procurement staff and the selection staff are responsible for the roster and who plays each week.
On the basis of how we currently pick our teams and manage our bench I propose we will battle to win >50% of our games and therefore never be real contenders.
The players don't select themselves so if they have deficiencies that is part and parcel of them as a player my contention is that due to the plodding nature or the inability to tackle or read defence there are more than enough reasons not to pick several of them.
We lose because we do pick them and continue to do so.
My references or descriptions of them are the reasons I wouldn't pick them nothing more nothing less (they are what they are) but I contend we will never be much better than what we are as a team until such times as some of the players in 1st grade are banished to CC.

Fair enough OT,

I agree with the selection issue and I think it goes a lot further than that. Many players do not look good in our team because the team balance is not there and/or the coach is trying to change the style of play of his players.

There is a fine line between too much structured play and too much chancing your arm. One of the problems is people tend to use structured and percentage play as the same thing. Over structured play is choreographed and predictable, percentage play is about taking the appropriate option given the possible risk/reward outcomes. Mary thinks he has them playing percentage play but he actually has them playing over structured.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Updated from Knights game:

First 30:
Trys scored = 13
Trys conceeded = 9

Mid 30:
Trys scored = 9
Trys conceeded = 19

Final 20:
Trys scored = 8
Trys conceeded = 12

Again we concede a try straight after half time (43rd min) taking the total to 6 straight after the resumption.