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Bell tolls for Union

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2,177
pinched from the totalrl forum

From thissportinglife.com:
"Do not ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."
After the difficulties of the last few years is Rugby Union finally giving up the ghost? Frequently described as an anachronism the ancient sport may finally be consigned to history as recent events show the accelerating decline within the game. It started to go wrong for the old Unions a hundred years ago when the upstart Rugby League turned the enjoyable pastime into a competitive sport. Since then Union has had to retreat into the institutions from which it first came: schools, universities and members clubs. Hastening this retreat, the progressive League made rules changes for a better sport and ran its clubs like businesses increasing the success and popularity of that “code”. Meanwhile Union tried desperately to preserve its place as a domain for the wealthy, the educated and the white.
In an attempt to rival the popularity of League and to try and make Great Britain more competitive in international competitions, many Union clubs turned professional on the 90s. Ignoring the warnings from League and Football about the dangers of such a move the Union clubs forged ahead. Despite having always paid their players (a situation often called “shamateurism”) the move to professional rugby would see spiralling costs for the clubs. Coupled with falling attendances in the face of resurgent Association Football clubs the end result was never in doubt.
First the traditional but small clubs collapsed, unable to compete with their wealthier rivals. Moves by other clubs to larger stadia saw momentary improvements in attendance followed by more decline but now with the additional costs of renting football grounds. The announcement today that the old Welsh club of Neath had gone bankrupt with no possibility of a rescue package adds further weight to the argument that the sport is in terminal decline. Which club will be next? Bristol? Sale?
Worse was to come for the ailing game. The falling interest in the sport, described by most as boring, lead to decay amongst the “grass roots”. Fewer young players take up the sport nowadays, many associating Rugby Union with a long dead era of class rule in Britain. The sport itself does not encourage good fitness or skilfulness in all it’s participants instead concentrating only on one or two players within a team. The few young players who do take up the sport often find themselves consigned to playing roles that see them inactive for long periods of matches or worse, performing repetitive physical activities that rely on brawn over brains – strength over skill. In such conditions young players find themselves unchallenged and their development suffers. The seeds of Union were cast onto stony ground.
To combat the falling standard of the sports professionals, Union looked to League for help for the first time in the 100 years of bitter conflict between the codes. Rather than spending revenues from television and international competitions on infrastructure, the sport made a last gasp effort to regain some of its former stature. Helped by centralised funding, clubs started to offer excessive sums of money for League players in what was a desperate attempt to bolster the failing game. Record sums were tabled to “cherry pick” the stars of League, stars which the League clubs quickly replaced from their own junior ranks without even breaking stride.
All but the most short sighted of observers could see that this final gesture was in fact the death throws of a dieing institution. Soon we will hear the death rattle from the throat of British Rugby Union as it joins its place in history alongside other relics such as Colonialism, the Monarchy and Knowing Ones Place. May it rest in peace.

 
M

Marcus

Guest
This is new - usually its "the death of league" but in repost to that some leaguie has come up with 'the death of union". One thing that he/she failedto do was to talk up your own game - that is usual protocol. By the sounds of this articlerugby is seen as abig threat to league's existence. League people these days must feel quite insecure.

But hey... if this article somehow helps you sleep better at night knowing that rugby is almost dead... then by all means
emwink.gif
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imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
Oh Marcus how does it feel for you living in sheltered Australia reading Unions properganda, believing Unions properganda and spreading Unions properganda?

The game may be on the up in Australia but its on the way down in England and New Zealand but of course Rugby Union wouldn't tell you that and even if their mouths did slip you have rose coloured glasses permantly stuck to your eyes.

I can assure you that the shit is going to hit the fan in a few years in union. Professionalism has strangled the game in New Zealand. Yes while Australia are on the rise Unions powerhouse New Zealand is struggling.

Right now Union is on its knees. The All Blacks have been built on this unbeatable mystique. The team has always had that arua about them that captured this countries heart. Well not anymore.

Professionalism has now seen an even playing field and New Zealand doesn't like it. The gap between the big and small has got out of control. The little clubs that once thrived in the Amateur days are now on their knees as the big clubs poach all their players. The gap just keeps growing and growing and the gapfrom the First Division to the Second is now huge and even bigger back to the Third Division.

On top of this the All Blacks have had 3 unsuccessful World Cup campaigns in a row now. They have struggled to hang in as one of the top 3 nations in the world since 1998 and as Bledisloe cup after Bledisloe cup slips from the All Blacks grip New Zealand union fans are getting disgruntled.

Coaches and Captains are now very expendable and since 1998 the All Blacks have gone through 3 coaches and 3 Captains, thats alot of changes in just a span of just 4 seasons of rugby. Its now got to the stage where this rebuilding phase has overun its budget and nothing isbeingbuilt.

Just to add to my delight not a single New Zealand team made the semi finals of the Super 12 this year. Moans of boredom surrounding the Super 12 in this country are slowly rising. You get the feeling now that maybe New Zealand doesn't want this competition anymore as its lost the glitz and glamour it had in its early days. Yet New Zealand is stuck with the compeition as it puts the bread on the table so its like it or lump it.

While all this goes on theres a little team called the New Zealand Warriors going about on their merry little way. This team put together late in the pre season and tipped for the spoon. A team that had never performed through all the hype, high payed players and bad management. This team made the semi finals for the first time. Oh its the kind of story that makes great press and it certainly got great press.

Even Murray Deaker who symbolises everything league fans hate about union has jumped on the bandwagon. Yes mr Rugby Union himself. He made the comment: "If the All Blacks don't win the 2003 world cup, union in NZ will become just another sport". I agree with him and guess what NZ won't win the 2003 world cup and you just wait because theres a league revolution on the horizon if the Warriors can consistantly perform to their ability.

So Marcus you keep telling yourself that your game is invincible and that league can never knock it off its mantle, if thats what helps you sleep at night..........then by all means
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Dolphin Oval

Juniors
Messages
85
Brilliant response bronco. That was excellent to read...thoughtful, intelligent and justified. Not much more needs to be said really...great stuff
emthup.gif

 
O

ozbash

Guest
bronco, as a fan of both codes, thats probably the best bit of writing i,ve read all year.
onya mate !!
 
Messages
2,177
Well said Bronco.
Your best work yet.
The point that has become clear over recent weeks is that the surge in the game in Australia is built on success which cannot go on forever. Union in Australia suffered a huge blow when we lost the recent test against England in such a boring fashion. About a million bandwagon jumpers would have seen the boring old Union and the exciting League test on consecutive days and would have put their leaping boots on. If Union doesn't deliver an inter galactic cup in the next year, interest will quickly wane in Australia.
 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
Thanks guys.
Most of its been said before in this country but I just thought Marcus should have a listen as I'm sure little ol New Zealand Union wouldn't get much of a mention in Australia.

So Marcus basically professionalism has split the Australiasian game in two. Its been great for Australia, before it they had a struggling club comp and a team that had spent its years getting thrashed by the All Blacks. Now they have the Super 12, two World Cups and a stranglehold on the Bledisloe Cup. Their producing big bucks and the scales are turned. Suddenly they can pick and choose who they want from league and yes Marcus you can sit there with your chest puffed out and skite to us but a real league heartland is in trouble.

As I said earler New Zealand are struggling with the professionalism era. They always had a successful club competition of three strong divisions. Small clubs like Hawkes Bay etc used to produce All Blacks and keep them. Now the only All Blacks come from the big five: Canterbury, Auckland, Waikato, Wellington and Otago. Its an even playing field out there these days and you have to know the mentality of the New Zealand public to know that their not going to except that.

Please reply Marcus, you can't dodge everything all your life.
 
Messages
123
Very good post bronco. Just too bad it is possibly the biggest pile of BULLSHIT ever written.

I will go through your post bit by bit.
I can assure you that the shit is going to hit the fan in a few years in union. Professionalism has strangled the game in New Zealand. Yes while Australia are on the rise Unions powerhouse New Zealand is struggling. .
Pro Union did indeed strangle the game in NZ for a while. At the same time that David Moffat was in charge. he put all the money into the top level of the game while ignoring the provinces and clubs. This is being addresed. While the clubs are still struggling the provinces are more and more being looked after. And next year there will be a rule bought inthat players cannot represent a provice that has not played at club leve. Directly designed to force the Allblacks to play club rugby and bring punters back through the gates. Which incedently are still more then any Bartercard cup game in the main centres.
Right now Union is on its knees. The All Blacks have been built on this unbeatable mystique. The team has always had that arua about them that captured this countries heart. Well not anymore
Crap!!! The LEGACY of the team the TRADITION of the team is what captured the countries heart. Same thing happend in the late seventies when the ALL Blacks had a very bad run. Didn't stop the game coming back stronger then ever. Let me guess bronco, you wern't alive in the seventies to see this?
Professionalism has now seen an even playing field and New Zealand doesn't like it
true but the country has accepted it was inevitable. it is cyclical however and the AB's will be back bigger then ever.

The gap between the big and small has got out of control. The little clubs that once thrived in the Amateur days are now on their knees as the big clubs poach all their players. The gap just keeps growing and growing and the gapfrom the First Division to the Second is now huge and even bigger back to the Third Division.
From the first to second maybe. But I take it you were one of the few in the country who didn't watch East Coast ,who last year one the third division come within minutes of winning the second division. And paying Club players is not allowed and is strictly inforced. you are refereing to the Provinces in the divisions. BIG difference.

On top of this the All Blacks have had 3 unsuccessful World Cup campaigns in a row now. They have struggled to hang in as one of the top 3 nations in the world since 1998 and as Bledisloe cup after Bledisloe cup slips from the All Blacks grip New Zealand union fans are getting disgruntled.
So whats new. The country demands perfection in its team. and the All Blacks ARE New Zealands team. It won't make any difference to the game though. those same disgruntled fans will still pack out test matches will still stop work, will still get up n the middle of the night to watch a test match.

Coaches and Captains are now very expendable and since 1998 the All Blacks have gone through 3 coaches and 3 Captains, thats alot of changes in just a span of just 4 seasons of rugby. Its now got to the stage where this rebuilding phase has overun its budget and nothing isbeingbuilt.
Conveniant use of statistics. you negkected to mention that in 99 Hart had come to the end of his 4 year reign. Therefore new coach. This year Smith resigned, So new coach.
As for the captains. It is actually 4 in that time. Fitzpatrick retired. Incomes Randel. Randels injured incomes Marshell, Back to Randell when he's fit. This year a New Coach who didn't have Randel in his team names a new captain. Oliver. Hardly a crisis.

Just to add to my delight not a single New Zealand team made the semi finals of the Super 12 this year. Moans of boredom surrounding the Super 12 in this country are slowly rising. You get the feeling now that maybe New Zealand doesn't want this competition anymore as its lost the glitz and glamour it had in its early days. Yet New Zealand is stuck with the compeition as it puts the bread on the table so its like it or lump it
Very true. The NPC will always be first. However the super 12 is hardley the Union showpiece in New Zealand.

While all this goes on theres a little team called the New Zealand Warriors going about on their merry little way. This team put together late in the pre season and tipped for the spoon. A team that had never performed through all the hype, high payed players and bad management. This team made the semi finals for the first time. Oh its the kind of story that makes great press and it certainly got great press. Even Murray Deaker who symbolises everything league fans hate about union has jumped on the bandwagon. Yes mr Rugby Union himself. He made the comment: "If the All Blacks don't win the 2003 world cup, union in NZ will become just another sport". I agree with him and guess what NZ won't win the 2003 world cup and you just wait because theres a league revolution on the horizon if the Warriors can consistantly perform to their ability.

Your opinion. Too bad it is not shared by the VAST majority of New Zealand. The Warriors have indeed done themselves proud, but the All Blacks are, have always been, WILL allways be New Zealands team. New Zealanders have always prefered international teams to club teams. The same in Cricket, netball, League, Union, Softball and any other sport that the country particpates in.

I am assuming that you are just a teenager who is part of the playstation generation that has never stood at the top of the Millard stand in a rouring southerly at a packed out Athletic Park to watch the Allblacks play. have never seen the awed expression of the kids as the team that they have been bought up on watches there heroes come out on tho the field.
One day the Warriors may have that same appeal but it will take more then a couple of good seasons from them and some very bad ones form the All Blacks to achieve it.
The All Blacks Aura will take decades to get that bad. In time when you grow up you may come to realise this. your idealalogical zeal is comendable however your posts are wildly innacurate.





 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
Well this could easily turn into a slanging match so I won't quote you directly but keep in the order of the points you made.

My point on club rugby still stands. The clubs in third and second division can no longer hold on to their players. The big unions in the first division are dominating the game and picking and choosing who they like. Theres no way if your a player with potential to be big in New Zealand union that your going to stick around in say Hawkes Bay. Their all moving on into the bigger sides.

The gap is big. Marlborough and East Coast have done well in the second division but still there is a noticable gap, not quite as big as between the first and second but a gap all the same.
Theres even a gap in the first division itself. You have got Bay of Plenty, Northland, Taranaki, Southland and Coutnies who are all struggling while once again the bigger unions dominate the scene.

The Tradition and Legacy of being unbeatable. That so called aura of these past greatAll Black teams that were successful. Alot of people grew up never seeing the All Blacks lose albieta much younger generation than what your from. This country demands success and All Black captains and coaches have caved in under the pressure. It seems as though this countries media now have a script written up that they read out after everyAll Blacks match. Its come to the point where Union journos have become bored of the continual run down. Murray Deaker last year gathered a whole lot of people together to go to the Warriors home game against the Roosters. Hes riding the wave.

I'll concede on the captains issue as I don't remember Marshell coming in to take over the job. However it is not a major point as I'm sure you'll agree, it is still ridiculos that a side can claim its rebuilding yet go through so many coaches and captains.

Well the NPC is debatable. I don't know where I quite stand on the issue myself. I think the public slightly regard the Super 12 higher. Theres no doubt support wise Union could still thrive with just the NPC as it has much more tradition behind it than the Super 12. Still the Super 12 exploded onto the scene here and for a while it was this countries showpiece, it certainly is only hanging on these days mainly because Australia need that competition through their own poor club comp. NZ and SA have the successful NPC and Curry Cup competitions.

Well theres no doubting that the Warriors can't solely lead the up rising of league but they will play a big part. Just cast your mind back to 95. This country was in a frenzy leading up to the Warriors arrival. The Winfield Cup had great support here and New Zealand had been promised a team for a couple of years(?). With continued success the Warriors can once again generate that excitement and support. Especially in Auckland, their a febble bunch up there and I really think on the back of 2001 the Warriors will get some good crowds in for next season.

I said in RJs forum a couple of days ago that it will could take a decade or more for NZ league to ever get on level or above pegging with union. Just mark my words though the potential is there. If New Zealand fail to capture the 2003 world cup there will be yet another media bashing. How long can union handle this continual bad press on the back of the Warriors success?

The All Blacks will never lose that loyal fan base and the countries attention. I don't claim that to be the case but in years to come they may have a much more level playing field on their hands. League will grow with the Warriors, continual success will see money brought back into the game and while the Bartercard cup is in its early stages I truely believe that given time it will strenthen into a real talent pool and the step up between Bartercard and the Warriors will shorten and that can only be a plus for the game in this country.

The New Zealand Rugby League team can only get stronger and more competitive with the Talent that is now coming through and their proposed tour of Britain has shown their clear intentions to help the growth of international rugby league, more internationals means more attention and a bigger fan base in this country.

Also in 10 years down the track it may not just be the Warriors in this country. The Bulldogs have signed a 4 year deal with Wellington and other clubs are interested in playing there after seeing the success the Bulldogs had. Now is the time for the Warriors to get on the bandwagon and allocate a small number of their home games to areas such as Wellington and Christchurch.
Wellington is gearing up for an NRL team one day and if the NZRL can really work on strengthening the local league here the game has potential in this town.

Ok well sorry for the length of my post but I wanted to defend myself and really touch up on some of my earlier points which were made late at night and when I was hot under the collar at Marcus' crack at league. Beowolf I'd prefer it if this did not become a slanging match but feel free to reply to my above thoughts.

 
Messages
4,446
Beowolf, welcome to the forum. I dont believe i have seen you here before. But enough of that, id like to take a read back through your post....

"he put all the money into the top level of the game while ignoring the provinces and clubs. This is being addresed"

No its not! The NZRU are continually being forced to devote more and more to the Super 12 comp (elite level). There are rumblings against the Super 12 comp in NZ, people have come out against it. I dont care about future possibilities. Take a look at how crowd numbers have fallen in recent years. Take the bartercard cup and the numbers have dropped, and so has the interest.

"Crap!!! The LEGACY of the team the TRADITION of the team is what captured the countries heart"

Yes, crap it is. Murray Dexter, the biggest rugby nut in NZ has even admitted thatrugby unionwill become just another game if they dont win the world cup. The aura has gone from NZ rugby mate. Its a perception thing, they have gone from being top of the pops to something much less. The legacy and tradition is going mate. The NZ public is becoming increasing cynical of a code that has ignored its grass roots and gone for the global dollar.

"Very true. The NPC will always be first. However the super 12 is hardley the Union showpiece in New Zealand."

Well thats a sham then, isn't it?? The 'premier' union comp isn't highly regarded in one of the only nations in the world where union is the national code. NZders have a choice to make...either embrace the s12 or get out of it. Because the grass roots are already hurting, and not many people are to impressed by the whole s12 concept on an elite level.

"I am assuming that you are just a teenager who is part of the playstation generation that has never stood at the top of the Millard stand in a rouring southerly at a packed out Athletic Park to watch the Allblacks play. have never seen the awed expression of the kids as the team that they have been bought up on watches there heroes come out on tho the field"

Don't start unnecessary fights. Most of us in here see through that ridiculous union chest beating that you all seem so well drilled at. "Awed expression of the kids". Come on mate, lol lol lol

"your idealalogical zeal is comendable however your posts are wildly innacurate."

Mate, how would u know this?? I have only ever seen you post in here once, so unless u r a lurker i dont see how u would know this. And no, bronco was not wildly innacurate, so i dunno where u get that perception from

Moff.

 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
"Well thats a sham then, isn't it?? The 'premier' union comp isn't highly regarded in one of the only nations in the world where union is the national code. NZders have a choice to make...either embrace the s12 or get out of it. Because the grass roots are already hurting, and not many people are to impressed by the whole s12 concept on an elite level."

The problem is though I don't know if New Zealand can afford to pull out of the Super 12. It puts alot of money in the pockets and these days the NPC is treated like some second rate competition, I don't know if the interest in the competition that was there before the Super 12 still remains in NZ. Its a tricky situation. Its reallly hard to guage how kindly NZ would take too pulling the pin on the NPC, theres a growing support against it but at the same time theres still a support base for it.

As I've said before Australia are the only country that really need the Super 12 so I certainly wouldn't shed a single tear if the comp went under. One gets the feeling that adding two more teams is a desperate ploy by union to recapture attention for the competition but I somehow doubt it, both new teams are likely to end up cellor dwellers where they will be joined by half of the comp.

"Don't start unnecessary fights. Most of us in here see through that ridiculous union chest beating that you all seem so well drilled at. "Awed expression of the kids". Come on mate, lol lol lol"
"Mate, how would u know this?? I have only ever seen you post in here once, so unless u r a lurker i dont see how u would know this. And no, bronco was not wildly innacurate, so i dunno where u get that perception from"

Thanks for standing up for me moff but considering beowolf probably doesn't know my from a bar of soap I don't see why there was a need to make it personal. I have no intention of replying to his final comments of his post.



 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,087
Bewolf:
"...it is possibly the biggest pile of BULLSHIT ever written."

Do you really think that?
Perhaps you should get out more.
emsad.gif

 
Messages
123
bronco
My point on club rugby still stands. The clubs in third and second division can no longer hold on to their players. The big unions in the first division are dominating the game and picking and choosing who they like. Theres no way if your a player with potential to be big in New Zealand union that your going to stick around in say Hawkes Bay. Their all moving on into the bigger sides.
The trend these days is for the Super 12 sides to sign the players, then loan them out to the other teams in the province. proff of this is the amount of players that the non super 12 teams have in the various academies. The move of players to the cities is not just a Union thing. Most small towns around the country are losing people to the cities as employment is harder to find in the countryside. And the transfer fee that a province gets for devoping a player that moves is able to go back in to player devopment.

The gap is big. Marlborough and East Coast have done well in the second division but still there is a noticable gap, not quite as big as between the first and second but a gap all the same. Theres even a gap in the first division itself. You have got Bay of Plenty, Northland, Taranaki, Southland and Coutnies who are all struggling while once again the bigger unions dominate the scene
Lets see, Bay of Plenty is in its first year in division one. But they along with Southland still beat Wellington. Northland beat Auckland and North Harbour. Taranaki has been in the semi's three out of the last four years and has held the Ranfurly shield twice in that time.North Harbour where firstafter the round robin.Counties was in trouble and is now in division two to rebuild. Can't be that big a gap.
East coast is the smallest province in the country yet still almost one the second division. Can't be that big a gap between second and third divisions.

The Tradition and Legacy of being unbeatable. That so called aura of these past greatAll Black teams that were successful. Alot of people grew up never seeing the All Blacks lose albieta much younger generation than what your from. This country demands success and All Black captains and coaches have caved in under the pressure. It seems as though this countries media now have a script written up that they read out after everyAll Blacks match. Its come to the point where Union journos have become bored of the continual run down. Murray Deaker last year gathered a whole lot of people together to go to the Warriors home game against the Roosters. Hes riding the wave.
If your judging by the band wagon jumiing media in this country then you are in for a big fall. If and when the All blacks win the World cup it will be Warriors who???
At the moment go to any small town and look in the paper. Local Union is still all the talk. In the south Island bar the west coast the Warriors are still not getting much press.

I'll concede on the captains issue as I don't remember Marshell coming in to take over the job. However it is not a major point as I'm sure you'll agree, it is still ridiculos that a side can claim its rebuilding yet go through so many coaches and captains.
The so called building for the world cup is now a thing of the past. Mitchell wants to win every game.He thinks the "re-building" claim is nonsence as well.

Well the NPC is debatable. I don't know where I quite stand on the issue myself. I think the public slightly regard the Super 12 higher
Only in the cities.

Theres no doubt support wise Union could still thrive with just the NPC as it has much more tradition behind it than the Super 12. Still the Super 12 exploded onto the scene here and for a while it was this countries showpiece, it certainly is only hanging on these days mainly because Australia need that competition through their own poor club comp. NZ and SA have the successful NPC and Curry Cup competitions
Agreed. The Super 12 and Tri nations mean less then the Ranfurley Shield, The NPC and the Bledisloe Cup.

Well theres no doubting that the Warriors can't solely lead the up rising of league but they will play a big part. Just cast your mind back to 95. This country was in a frenzy leading up to the Warriors arrival
Big Hype, Big Fall. It will take decades before that kind of fever happens again. And it is doubtful it will get outside Auckland.

The Winfield Cup had great support here and New Zealand had been promised a team for a couple of years(?). With continued success the Warriors can once again generate that excitement and support. Especially in Auckland, their a febble bunch up there and I really think on the back of 2001 the Warriors will get some good crowds in for next season.
Probaby right Auckland has replaced Australia and GB for raping talent from the local comp. The New Zealand Warriors are an AUCKLAND team. Everybody knows it. No matter what the publicity means.

The All Blacks will never lose that loyal fan base and the countries attention. I don't claim that to be the case but in years to come they may have a much more level playing field on their hands. League will grow with the Warriors, continual success will see money brought back into the game and while the Bartercard cup is in its early stages I truely believe that given time it will strenthen into a real talent pool and the step up between Bartercard and the Warriors will shorten and that can only be a plus for the game in this country.

The Bartercard cup is doomed as a national comp. All the best young players have or are moving to Auckland to get noticed. The Wellington team will be a disaster with most of the Wainui team playingfor Manawatu. Tenga Pikering and Vilai Kelimiti are the only two decent players in the squad.

The New Zealand Rugby League team can only get stronger and more competitive with the Talent that is now coming through and their proposed tour of Britain has shown their clear intentions to help the growth of international rugby league, more internationals means more attention and a bigger fan base in this country.
Until the next time that the ESL or NRL refuse to release players. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Also in 10 years down the track it may not just be the Warriors in this country. The Bulldogs have signed a 4 year deal with Wellington and other clubs are interested in playing there after seeing the success the Bulldogs had.
Other clubs were interested last year and the year before and the year before that. How many have played their home games in NZ in the last five years? ONE.
The Bulldogs want money. Four years is enough for the Novelty not to have worn off.

Now is the time for the Warriors to get on the bandwagon and allocate a small number of their home games to areas such as Wellington and Christchurch.
Won't happen for a few years. They have to look after their season ticket holders for the next few years while they try an rebuild a club.

Wellington is gearing up for an NRL team one day and if the NZRL can really work on strengthening the local league here the game has potential in this town.
Won't happen EVER. The Aussie public will never allow it. The Wellington comp is dying. Three clubs have folded in the last two years. The rest have only half the playing teams they had five years ago. Reason? More money in Union. More chance to travel overseas. Just under half ot the Manu Samoa team have Wellington links. Better chance of a contract in England or Japan.

MFC
"he put all the money into the top level of the game while ignoring the provinces and clubs. This is being addresed
No its not! The NZRU are continually being forced to devote more and more to the Super 12 comp (elite level). There are rumblings against the Super 12 comp in NZ, people have come out against it. I dont care about future possibilities. Take a look at how crowd numbers have fallen in recent years. Yes it is.
The Union has increased its payments to the provinces with the express purpose of going to the clubs and junior development. Where have crowd numbers fallen? In Otago and Canterbury? While they refurbished their stadia to increase the size. In Auckland? very true. In Waikato? Have increased in Wellington? You can't get tickets because they are always sold out.
Take the bartercard cup and the numbers have dropped, and so has the interest.
The Bartercard cup never had much supprt to begin with. no more than a couple of thousand per game. But I thought we were talking about Union crowds not League? Are you Australian and don't know what the bartercard cup is?

"Crap!!! The LEGACY of the team the TRADITION of the team is what captured the countries heart"
Yes, crap it is. Murray Dexter, the biggest rugby nut in NZ has even admitted thatrugby unionwill become just another game if they dont win the world cup. The aura has gone from NZ rugby mate. Its a perception thing, they have gone from being top of the pops to something much less. The legacy and tradition is going mate. The NZ public is becoming increasing cynical of a code that has ignored its grass roots and gone for the global dollar.

Definetly Austrailian. Murray Deaker is who i think you are refering to. He is trying to soften is Union image as he now hosts SPORTS talk not UNION talk.

"Very true. The NPC will always be first. However the super 12 is hardley the Union showpiece in New Zealand."
Well thats a sham then, isn't it?? The 'premier' union comp isn't highly regarded in one of the only nations in the world where union is the national code. NZders have a choice to make...either embrace the s12 or get out of it. Because the grass roots are already hurting, and not many people are to impressed by the whole s12 concept on an elite level
It has never been the Premier comp. International comps are the top level in Union. World Cup, TriNations, Bledisloe, Six Nations. Its seems only League suporters who think a provincial comp is the Premier comp. And your last statement could just as easily be said about the Australian League. Grass roots doing OK in AUS League?



"I am assuming that you are just a teenager who is part of the playstation generation that has never stood at the top of the Millard stand in a rouring southerly at a packed out Athletic Park to watch the Allblacks play. have never seen the awed expression of the kids as the team that they have been bought up on watches there heroes come out on tho the field"
Don't start unnecessary fights. Most of us in here see through that ridiculous union chest beating that you all seem so well drilled at. "Awed expression of the kids". Come on mate, lol lol lol
Observation not rhetoric. Unless you were standing on the top of the millard you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm assuming your Australian and you have no idea about the New Zealand Phsyce (sp) in regards to the All Blacks.

your idealalogical zeal is comendable however your posts are wildly innacurate." Mate, how would u know this?? I have only ever seen you post in here once, so unless u r a lurker i dont see how u would know this. And no, bronco was not wildly innacurate, so i dunno where u get that perception from

Apoligies that should have read POSTnot POSTS. That post was innacurate and bassed purely on his opinionions and not on facts.





 
Messages
123
Bewolf:
"...it is possibly the biggest pile of BULLSHIT ever written."

Do you really think that?
Perhaps you should get out more.
emsad.gif


Your probably right I should ge out more. Doesn't change my opinion though

 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
Once again I’m not directly quoting you as it just gets confusing going back and forwards through all the bloody quotes that are mounting up. I’m just going to try and go though the order in which you made your points.

Your point mate? It still doesn’t change the fact that the bigger clubs now dominate the game and since the death of the amateur era the smaller clubs have struggled and can no longer hold onto the players they have developed thus creating a divide between the big and small unions.

What you forgot to mention is how Bay of Plenty’s only other win was against Counties another struggling side. I can’t remember how they did against Southland if you could enlighten me on that but from memory they lost.
Northland had a win over a woeful Auckland side. There’s always going to be upsets in every competition, do you think this somehow paints Northland as a great side? Taranaki haven’t been in the semis for a couple of years from memory and they haven’t held the shield for a while since Waikato and Canterbury have had a stranglehold on it for a good couple of seasons.
I never mentioned North Harbour so please enlighten me how they got into the conversation? Naming a few upsets through out the year is just your ploy to gloss over the truth, you know as well as I do that there’s a gap in the first division between the larger sides and the smaller sides that are consistently cellar dwellers.

As I said East Coast and Marlbourgh are exceptions to the rule, your point?
If you’re judging by the bandwagon jumping media in this country then you are in for a big fall. If and when the All blacks win the World cup it will be Warriors who???
At the moment go to any small town and look in the paper. Local Union is still all the talk. In the south Island bar the west coast the Warriors are still not getting much press.

We are both assuming the outcome on this point over the world cup here so its not an argument built on facts but right now the All Blacks are pretty long odds to win the World Cup. In 1995 and 1999 they should’ve won both World Cups and fell short, suddenly now that they have an even worse team the odds are supposed to get better? Unlikely.

Just look at 1999, it took 4 wins in a row for the Warriors to generate hype for the 2000 season. While the public will be more sceptical this time as I said if the Warriors can maintain solid performances and win their fair share of matches the hype will solidly build and be sustained.

I’m not trying to deny that fact but the Warriors with the new name now have the opportunity to take games out to different areas as well as keeping a strong supporters base in Auckland.

They only hold players back at clubs for internationals against smaller nations. This tour will be in the off season thus giving the Kiwis a chance to take full strength squads into matches against emerging nations giving those areas a boost. Hopefully Australia can follow this bold move by the Kiwis and plan similar tours in years to come.

That’s what they’ve said already. Miracles don’t happen over night and the club has already gone a long way in one season to rebuild itself, in a few more years time with a more professional Warriors outfit they will have generated a very strong supporters base on top of the loyal 7 thousand or so that turn up each week regardless. If they go about it sensibly and set aside 3-4 home games a year for areas such as Christchurch and Wellington they can build on support around the country as well as keeping the loyal Auckland supporters happy.

The Australian public won’t allow it? Now that is a myth made up by the media. Quite like the myth that Australians wish the Warriors weren’t in the comp. Funny how the Warriors had the strong backing of a lot of Australians last year and the people on this board. The general thought seems to be, if your going to be in the comp we want you to be competitive.
Also I’m sure if you asked most people on this board most are open minded enough to know that a second New Zealand side is a good idea and would be in support of it. Funny how you accuse me of taking the medias word yet you believe the their articles that reek of little brother syndrome.

Lets just wait and see how the new Wellington Bartercard Cup side does before we start proclaiming the death of the sport in the Wellington region.

I haven’t stood on the top of the Millard stand because I’m not suicidal but I’ve stood on the terraces in Wellington in Super 12, NPC and All Black matches. I didn’t see much different to what was experienced at the Bulldogs and Australia V New Zealand league matches in at the stadium this year. What is your point? All over the world fans go to the extremes to see their teams, what makes union any different?

Oh now this is the biggest load of bullshit I’ve heard in a long time (yes willow I should get out more but I definitely believe my comment). That show basically is union talk. About 95% of the shows this year have been dedicated to union and Deaker hasn’t changed his attitude one little bit. He’s just feeling the crunch that his comments about the Warriors are coming back and blowing up in his face. He’s as feeble as every other union fan, they’ll ride the highs and ditch you in the lows

 
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Your point mate? It still doesn’t change the fact that the bigger clubs now dominate the game and since the death of the amateur era the smaller clubs have struggled and can no longer hold onto the players they have developed thus creating a divide between the big and small unions
I'll try bold instead of italic. Your saying there is a wide divide. I'm saying that there isn't as big a divide as you make out. And players going to the big cities has happened for decades not recently and the smaller provinces are stil going strong. When was the last tme a province went bust? Answer never. When was the last time a League club went bust? three in the last two years in Wellington alone.

What you forgot to mention is how Bay of Plenty’s only other win was against Counties another struggling side. I can’t remember how they did against Southland if you could enlighten me on that but from memory they lost.Northland had a win over a woeful Auckland side. There’s always going to be upsets in every competition, do you think this somehow paints Northland as a great side? Taranaki haven’t been in the semis for a couple of years from memory and they haven’t held the shield for a while since Waikato and Canterbury have had a stranglehold on it for a good couple of seasons. I never mentioned North Harbour so please enlighten me how they got into the conversation? Naming a few upsets through out the year is just your ploy to gloss over the truth, you know as well as I do that there’s a gap in the first division between the larger sides and the smaller sides that are consistently cellar dwellers
As I said the Bay is in their first season of First division. Still there team makes a large percentage of the New Zealand Sevens team. They can still hold onto their players it seems.
Northland is a small province that has "lost" a lot of its players yet still finished in the top half of the NPC. By your reckoning they should not have a team at all because they have lost their players. North Harbour illistarted that a team without that is not a super 12 base can still go allright. It PROVES that your gap is mythical.

As I said East Coast and Marlbourgh are exceptions to the rule, your point.
So there is a YAWING gap except those two?Conveinent.

We are both assuming the outcome on this point over the world cup here so its not an argument built on facts but right now the All Blacks are pretty long odds to win the World Cup. In 1995 and 1999 they should’ve won both World Cups and fell short, suddenly now that they have an even worse team the odds are supposed to get better? Unlikely.
As you say puely speculation. they should have one in 95 except for the food poisoning the night before the final (and no I don't believe it was delibrate) in 99 it came down to 40 minutes of bad Rugby against France. As as for how bad they are now, except for one missed tackle they would have one the tri-nations.

Just look at 1999, it took 4 wins in a row for the Warriors to generate hype for the 2000 season. While the public will be more sceptical this time as I said if the Warriors can maintain solid performances and win their fair share of matches the hype will solidly build and be sustained.
It is easy to build hype when you start at the bottem. The Warriors were crap before those games.

They only hold players back at clubs for internationals against smaller nations
IS Australia a small nation? GB thinks so. three days for the Pauls to be with the team before a test is hardly ideal. And in New Zealand. A test is a test no matter who play. They should all be treated the same. It is only in League in this country that they are not.

This tour will be in the off season thus giving the Kiwis a chance to take full strength squads into matches against emerging nations giving those areas a boost. Hopefully Australia can follow this bold move by the Kiwis and plan similar tours in years to come. Hopefully being the operative word.

That’s what they’ve said already. Miracles don’t happen over night and the club has already gone a long way in one season to rebuild itself, in a few more years time with a more professional Warriors outfit they will have generated a very strong supporters base on top of the loyal 7 thousand or so that turn up each week regardless

Do they have a few years? 7,000 to a game is a pitiful amount weekly compared to the NPC and Super 12 games. Comparable to Divison two crowds.

If they go about it sensibly and set aside 3-4 home games a year for areas such as Christchurch and Wellington they can build on support around the country as well as keeping the loyal Auckland supporters happy
Problem is it won't keep the Auckland fans happy. They will want the best value for money for their season pass. That doesn't involve missing 3-4 home games.

The Australian public won’t allow it? Now that is a myth made up by the media. Quite like the myth that Australians wish the Warriors weren’t in the comp. Funny how the Warriors had the strong backing of a lot of Australians last year and the people on this board. The general thought seems to be, if your going to be in the comp we want you to be competitive.
The people on this board are only a small cross section. TheNRL doesn't have the money to expand. Do you think therefore that the Aussies will want to lose a team for a second Kiwi team?

Also I’m sure if you asked most people on this board most are open minded enough to know that a second New Zealand side is a good idea and would be in support of it. Funny how you accuse me of taking the medias word yet you believe the their articles that reek of little brother syndrome. Who said anything about the media I make my own conclusions from my own observations in New Zealand and Aussie.

Lets just wait and see how the new Wellington Bartercard Cup side does before we start proclaiming the death of the sport in the Wellington region.
How many club games have you been too in the last five years? If it was more then a couple you would see what I an talking about.

I haven’t stood on the top of the Millard stand because I’m not suicidal but I’ve stood on the terraces in Wellington in Super 12, NPC and All Black matches. I didn’t see much different to what was experienced at the Bulldogs and Australia V New Zealand league matches in at the stadium this year. What is your point? All over the world fans go to the extremes to see their teams, what makes union any different?
The atmosphere at the Bulldogs and AUS/NZ test was that of sports fans come along to see a good game, with a few thousand dihard League fans. Tha atmoshpere at the Park and now at the Stadium for the Super 12 local derbys and Big NPC games left it for dead. Union fans as a rule are no different to League fans. However in New Zealand Union fans are like League Fans in Aussie. Will watch the other codeit if its on but wouldn't miss it if it wasn't. Ask your average New Zealander which game they would rather watch if they were both on TV at the same time. The Warriors or the All Blacks. 99 out of a 100 would say the AllBalcks.

Oh now this is the biggest load of bullshit I’ve heard in a long time (yes willow I should get out more but I definitely believe my comment). That show basically is union talk. About 95% of the shows this year have been dedicated to union and Deaker hasn’t changed his attitude one little bit. He’s just feeling the crunch that his comments about the Warriors are coming back and blowing up in his face. He’s as feeble as every other union fan, they’ll ride the highs and ditch you in the lows
Only your opinion.





 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,087
Bowolf:

"The people on this board are only a small cross section. TheNRL doesn't have the money to expand. Do you think therefore that the Aussies will want to lose a team for a second Kiwi team?"
Maybe, maybe notol' fella ... but there's one word that springs to mind: 'relocation'.
There's at least two teams in Sydney who have at least dribbled out this this word over the odd amber liquid.
 
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123
Any relocated team would be ALL imports. Wellington has no depth of players to cater for a team.And no supoort for a relocatedteam full of Aussies. Onlyteam that would work would be the Storm.Christchurch might do. But Jade stadium is used for both Union and cricket and would not be able to sustain a third team for most of the year. And there is no other stadia in CHCH upto standard.
 

imported_bronco

Juniors
Messages
1,426
For starters this is just going around in circles but seeing neither of us are going to back down any time soon.

Your saying there is a wide divide. I'm saying that there isn't as big a divide as you make out. And players going to the big cities has happened for decades not recently and the smaller provinces are stil going strong. When was the last tme a province went bust? Answer never. When was the last time a League club went bust? three in the last two years in Wellington alone.
There is a divide. Bay of Plenty were the best the second division had to offer and bar the match against Wellington they were the competition whipping boys. The relegation match showed the divide as well, Hawkes Bay were totally outclassed by the Bay who are themselves barely first division material.

As I said the Bay is in their first season of First division. Still there team makes a large percentage of the New Zealand Sevens team. They can still hold onto their players it seems.
Northland is a small province that has "lost" a lot of its players yet still finished in the top half of the NPC. By your reckoning they should not have a team at all because they have lost their players. North Harbour illistarted that a team without that is not a super 12 base can still go allright. It PROVES that your gap is mythical.
Key word: Sevens and remember who coaches Bay of Plenty and the New Zealand sevens side, well what do you know its the same guy Mr Titchens.
You know yourself that Taranaki, Southland, Bay of Plenty and Northland aren't quite up to first division standard but you'd rather back up your point by showing a few upsets. The North Queensland Cowboys bet the Warriors in 8ththis year, drew with Parramatta etc etc, does that make them a great side? If I was to look at things like you are I could quite easily say that there is no gap from the top to the bottom of the NRL because of a few upsets that happen in EVERY sport.

So there is a YAWING gap except those two?Conveinent.
Two teams out of a whole division.

As you say puely speculation. they should have one in 95 except for the food poisoning the night before the final (and no I don't believe it was delibrate) in 99 it came down to 40 minutes of bad Rugby against France. As as for how bad they are now, except for one missed tackle they would have one the tri-nations.
But you forget to mention that they were totally outclassed in the first Bledisloe Cup match. They didn't take the silverware and thats the end of the story. Many matches are won by one play but the difference between great sides and great runners up are those one plays. Kiwis aren't happy with getting to within one play of victory. Do you think the public will all sit back and cheer and hoot if NZ lose out by one play in the 2003 world cup?

It is easy to build hype when you start at the bottem. The Warriors were crap before those games.
Exactly my point, it took bugger all to build hype yet you said that the Warriors will never generate the hype from 95 again. I disagree.

Do they have a few years? 7,000 to a game is a pitiful amount weekly compared to the NPC and Super 12 games. Comparable to Divison two crowds.
They averaged alot higher than 7k for the year but the point was that they have that loyal 7k that turned up for years and in the years to come they will slowly build on that base thats already in place. Just remember accross town the Blues used to pack out Edan Park in the early days of the Super 12 now you could hear a pin drop in that stadium on game night.

Problem is it won't keep the Auckland fans happy. They will want the best value for money for their season pass. That doesn't involve missing 3-4 home games.
The fans never had problems with taking a couple of games to other areas in the past. I think the fans are a little more open minded than you give them credit for and see taking a couple of home games into other areas as a positive step for league.

The people on this board are only a small cross section. TheNRL doesn't have the money to expand. Do you think therefore that the Aussies will want to lose a team for a second Kiwi team?
I think if you go to the World of Rugby League forum with about 2000 members the view point would be quite similar. 2000 is quite a cross section.
The NRL might not have the current funds to expand but where did I suggest that a Wellington NRL side could get off the ground tomorrow?

Who said anything about the media I make my own conclusions from my own observations in New Zealand and Aussie.
Oh so you suddenly are in touch with your Australian brothers and can speak on behalf of them that they wouldn't accept a second team?

The atmosphere at the Bulldogs and AUS/NZ test was that of sports fans come along to see a good game, with a few thousand dihard League fans. Tha atmoshpere at the Park and now at the Stadium for the Super 12 local derbys and Big NPC games left it for dead. Union fans as a rule are no different to League fans. However in New Zealand Union fans are like League Fans in Aussie. Will watch the other codeit if its on but wouldn't miss it if it wasn't. Ask your average New Zealander which game they would rather watch if they were both on TV at the same time. The Warriors or the All Blacks. 99 out of a 100 would say the AllBalcks.
I've been to Super 12 games in at the stadium, there have been games with great atmosphere such as the Canterbury Crusaders match but others that are just plain dull. You have to remember in the Bulldogs match nothing really happened until the last 10 minutes so of course the atmosphere isn't going to be the best but for a dead boring match is was pretty good.

How many club games have you been too in the last five years? If it was more then a couple you would see what I an talking about.
It depends what club matches we are talking about. No I haven't been to a Bartercard cup match. Its only been up for a couple of years after the Lion Red Cup went under so it needs time to grow. In the last 5 years though Wellington wasn't doing too badly when they had a wellington and upper hutt side in the Lion Red cup.
I've been toa couple of Upper Hutt tigers matches because their just up the road from me, they get loyal support in there but the local comp in Wellington is virtually unheard of. The atmosphere in at petone games in the local union comp aint that thrilling either.

Only your opinion.
Mate face it, its a union show. 95% of them have had union topics, they only changed the name so they could get a few more people tuned in and occaisonally ride any national sporting high.

As I said at the top we are going round and round in circles and neither of us is going to budge one inch so this arguement is going nowhere.








 

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