Bell tolls for Union

[Willow]

Beowulf:
"Any relocated team would be ALL imports. "
I don't think even you believe that ol' fella. I know one guy in Wellington who would play for Wellington team for a next to nicks.. so thats one non-import...must be others out there.

But even if they were all imports...so what? Have to start somewhere. Look at Melbourne, a Rugby League team in the most un-Rugby League city I've ever seen... and I've been to Czechslovakia.

The way I see it, if a team like Canterbury (Bulldogs) relocated to Wellington, they would bring with them their juniors and a more than a few feeder clubs. ( I'm talking hypothetically Moff... ).

The fine citizens of Wellington turned out in force when NRL matches were played there recently. I understand that this encouraged the Australian clubs greatly and after looking at the gate takings, they decided that more games will be staged in Wlgtn in the future.

The dam may not have burst, far from it. But a few cracks are appearing...

 

[imported_bronco]

I'm agreeing with willow on this matter, you have to start from somewhere. What are your opinions on Australia introducing another Super 12 side, it doesn't matter if they place it in Adelaide, Perth or Melbourne all the players will be imports.
Much like in Canberra, when the Raiders started out they didn't have a hell of a lot oflocal playersbut they gained support in the region and now can produce their own talent. Look at the Brumbies I'm just assuming but i'd say about 90% of those blokes originated from Queensland or NSW yet the region has still accepted the Brumbies.

Also I think Wellingtonians would warm to a relocated side. Before the Warriors most league fans in this country supported a Sydney ARL side. Now if there is a relocation it will be from that area so the club would be coming here with support already. The new club would no doubt pick up some Kiwi players and a few Warriors would jump ship along the way making sure there was a kiwi influence in the clubs early days.
Also we are talking about Sydney clubs that know how to produce talent, a relocated side would no doubt put the foundations in place to bring through all the talent in the Wellington region to insure a successful long term enviroment for the relocated club.

If you want Kiwis I'll shove on the the jersey if it means that much to you.

 

[Marcus]

Hey... I see we have a new rugby fan here! Hello beowolf! Good to see another rugby fan other than myself having to defend "heavens game".

beowolf I take it you are a NZer who knows much more than I about NZ rugby - especially non-Super 12 stuff.

Okay now onto my reply.

"The game may be on the up in Australia but its on the way down in England and New Zealand..." - bronco

Your right bronco, rugby is on the up in Australia

. Rugby has seen unprecendented popularity and the Wallabies are a household name not just in NSW and QLD but across Australia. Crowd attendences at Super 12 games are at an all-time high. Participation levels are up at all fronts. The code has more money than ever before, and basically everything about the game is up-up-up. No doubt this trend will continue all the way to when RWC hits the country. If you think rugby is big now, you aint seen nothing yet. The Australian public will be in a frenzy like you have never seen it before and if the Wallabies win in 2003 rugby will explode in Oz. This is undoubtly the NRL's biggest fear.

Rugby is down in England? Maybe the playing numbers have decreased but saying that it is down couldn't be farther from the truth. So far this yr the ZP has seen a 28% increase in crowds. Sponsorship has increased, season ticket sales have increased, the RFU just recently posted a massive profit, and rugby is gaining in popularity. I have even heard that the BBC is now trying to buy out Skys rights to the 6Ns. The BBC has reintroduce "Rugby Special" andto say rugby is down in England is nonsense.

Now in NZ, rugby maybe going through a bad patch at the moment and one could say that it is down - but its definitely not forgotten. Its still the rave there - its their national game.

"Right now Union is on its knees. The All Blacks have been built on this unbeatable mystique. The team has always had that arua about them that captured this countries heart. Well not anymore." - bronco

On its knees? Whats that mean? So if the All Blacks lose the next game then rugby will die in NZ? If they win the bledisoe next yr, guess what? The aura will be back. I'm not even too sure if they even lost it.

"Just to add to my delight not a single New Zealand team made the semi finals of the Super 12 this year. Moans of boredom surrounding the Super 12 in this country are slowly rising. You get the feeling now that maybe New Zealand doesn't want this competition anymore as its lost the glitz and glamour it had in its early days. Yet New Zealand is stuck with the compeition as it puts the bread on the table so its like it or lump it." - bronco

I think its good that no NZ team make it in the Super 12 semis - its good for the comp. I know a couple of NZ people that prefer the Super 12 over NPC. They still rate the NPC but the Super 12 is the better comp.

"Even Murray Deaker who symbolises everything league fans hate about union has jumped on the bandwagon. Yes mr Rugby Union himself. He made the comment: "If the All Blacks don't win the 2003 world cup, union in NZ will become just another sport". I agree with him and guess what NZ won't win the 2003 world cup and you just wait because theres a league revolution on the horizon if the Warriors can consistantly perform to their ability." - bronco

This is no more than just an opinion. Just have to wait won't we.

"Union in Australia suffered a huge blow when we lost the recent test against England in such a boring fashion. " - Roopy

Tell me what the this 'huge blow" is?

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

"Union in Australia suffered a huge blow when we lost the recent test against England in such a boring fashion. " - Roopy

Tell me what the this 'huge blow" is?

Marcus,
I don't know why I'm bothering because you are clearly deaf to all that doesn't fit your narrow view of the world, but the 'big blow' was that everyone who bothered to watch this game was bored stupid by the most negative display seen for years.
I know YOU have wet dreams over guys pushing and shoving themselves around a park for what seems like hours, but most people arn't like you. Sorry to have to break that to you.
Rugby has had support because they have been winning, and everyone loves a winner, but they still serve up boring shit, and they can't win forever.

 

[imported_Te Kaha]

There is a divide. Bay of Plenty were the best the second division had to offer and bar the match against Wellington they were the competition whipping boys. The relegation match showed the divide as well, Hawkes Bay were totally outclassed by the Bay who are themselves barely first division material.
By your standard then Penrith &North Queensland aren't NRLmaterial then. And a relegation match has the same intensity as a grand final. The Bay had everything to lose. You also forget that three yearsago when the bay were still in the second division they almost beat Auckland for the Shield. In in comp in order for an upset to happen there has to be a reasonable ability in the team. If they can beat a first division team then they can lay in first division. Again the size of the gap is only your opinion.

Key word: Sevens and remember who coaches Bay of Plenty and the New Zealand sevens side, well what do you know its the same guy Mr Titchens.
You know yourself that Taranaki, Southland, Bay of Plenty and Northland aren't quite up to first division standard but you'd rather back up your point by showing a few upsets. The North Queensland Cowboys bet the Warriors in 8ththis year, drew with Parramatta etc etc, does that make them a great side? If I was to look at things like you are I could quite easily say that there is no gap from the top to the bottom of the NRL because of a few upsets that happen in EVERY sport.
Your saying this huge gap is detrimental to the NPC and yet you also say it is the same in every sport.

Two teams out of a whole division.
Yet one of those teams is the smallest province in the country and only the last year with the same team won the third division. How is this possible with such a huge gap in divisions?

But you forget to mention that they were totally outclassed in the first Bledisloe Cup match. They didn't take the silverware and thats the end of the story. Many matches are won by one play but the difference between great sides and great runners up are those one plays. Kiwis aren't happy with getting to within one play of victory. Do you think the public will all sit back and cheer and hoot if NZ lose out by one play in the 2003 world cup?

You say they were outclassed, yet they still almost won it. And what are you saying that if the All Black lose the 2003 World cup by a point Kiwis will switch off the All Blacks? Not a chance. If you think that the NZ public will switch to League if the All Blacks lose then you really need help. Win or lose the All Blacks are New Zealands team. The history and tradition will see to that.

Exactly my point, it took bugger all to build hype yet you said that the Warriors will never generate the hype from 95 again. I disagree.
Your opinion. The old saying "once biten, twice shy" comes to mind. Withthe good season this year of the Warriors what was the top topic in thepapers, on the tv, in the pubs? The change of coach for the All Blacks and the November tour.

They averaged alot higher than 7k for the year but the point was that they have that loyal 7k that turned up for years and in the years to come they will slowly build on that base thats already in place. Just remember accross town the Blues used to pack out Edan Park in the early days of the Super 12 now you could hear a pin drop in that stadium on game night.
Yes the Warriors are an Auckland team, Pro Union has hit Auckland the most. And yet there was a sell out last year when Auckland where in the NPC final.

The fans never had problems with taking a couple of games to other areas in the past. I think the fans are a little more open minded than you give them credit for and see taking a couple of home games into other areas as a positive step for league
Your so called open minded fans have complained every year when it was suggested that a few home games go around the country Don't you watch the news?

I've been to Super 12 games in at the stadium, there have been games with great atmosphere such as the Canterbury Crusaders match but others that are just plain dull. You have to remember in the Bulldogs match nothing really happened until the last 10 minutes so of course the atmosphere isn't going to be the best but for a dead boring match is was pretty good.
Except for the last ten minutes there was no atmoshphere.

It depends what club matches we are talking about. No I haven't been to a Bartercard cup match. Its only been up for a couple of years after the Lion Red Cup went under so it needs time to grow. In the last 5 years though Wellington wasn't doing too badly when they had a wellington and upper hutt side in the Lion Red cup.
I've been toa couple of Upper Hutt tigers matches because their just up the road from me, they get loyal support in there but the local comp in Wellington is virtually unheard of. The atmosphere in at petone games in the local union comp aint that thrilling either.


The local comp is unheardof because it has no support. The number of teams fielded by clubs(Clubs still playing) has droped by two thirds since Union went pro. And the bartercard cup is lucky if it gets a thousand people to a game in Wellington.

Mate face it, its a union show. 95% of them have had union topics, they only changed the name so they could get a few more people tuned in and occaisonally ride any national sporting high
Exactly it has nothing to do with Union going down or Leaguee going up. It is all about getting that extra 1% tuning in.

Willow
I don't think even you believe that ol' fella. I know one guy in Wellington who would play for Wellington team for a next to nicks.. so thats one non-import...must be others out there
Is he any good? there are less then 300 senior registered Legaue players in the greater Wellington area. There are no school teams. The Age grade comps next year are already short of players.
But even if they were all imports...so what? Have to start somewhere. Look at Melbourne, a Rugby League team in the most un-Rugby League city I've ever seen... and I've been to Czechslovakia
A wellington team that consists of mainly Australians will not get a hell of a lot of support. And with the Stadium being so expensive, needing 16,000 every game just to break even, who is going to pay for this team? The local corporate sponsership is all Union. Melbourne has enough Kiwis to appeal to the large percentage of Kiwis in melb and enough Aussies to keep the Aussie league fans happy.

The way I see it, if a team like Canterbury (Bulldogs) relocated to Wellington, they would bring with them their juniors and a more than a few feeder clubs
How long will a team full of Australians and no Wellington players survive? not very long. And we have already seen what happens to clubs that don't do well financially. How will the "Bulldogs" pay there players? No Austrailian corp will sponser them. And there isn't a NZ company that would get a return from an esiantally Aussie team.

The fine citizens of Wellington turned out in force when NRL matches were played there recently
ONE matxh. We also turned out to the Aussie rules and soccer in force te first year. the second year for those where disasters. Wait for the next three years and watch nce the novelty wears off.
I understand that this encouraged the Australian clubs greatly and after looking at the gate takings, they decided that more games will be staged in Wlgtn in the future.
The high cost of the stadium is holding them back much like what will happen to a Wellington NRL team. Not to mention that they won't be allowed any night games as there is only a set few allowed by law and Union has most of those.

The dam may not have burst, far from it. But a few cracks are appearing
and those cracks are all being blocked up as they develop.

bronco
I'm agreeing with willow on this matter, you have to start from somewhere. What are your opinions on Australia introducing another Super 12 side, it doesn't matter if they place it in Adelaide, Perth or Melbourne all the players will be imports.
Much like in Canberra, when the Raiders started out they didn't have a hell of a lot oflocal playersbut they gained support in the region and now can produce their own talent. Look at the Brumbies I'm just assuming but i'd say about 90% of those blokes originated from Queensland or NSW yet the region has still accepted the Brumbies.

Australians in an Australian team. Have you forgotten the uproar when Mark Graham bought a lot of Australians to the Warriors. An Aussie team in Wellinton will not work.

Also I think Wellingtonians would warm to a relocated side. Before the Warriors most league fans in this country supported a Sydney ARL side
Easy to support a team that you will never have to go to a game. Not to mention that most Wellington fans are Union not League.

The new club would no doubt pick up some Kiwi players and a few Warriors would jump ship along the way making sure there was a kiwi influence in the clubs early days.
Pure speculation.

Also we are talking about Sydney clubs that know how to produce talent, a relocated side would no doubt put the foundations in place to bring through all the talent in the Wellington region to insure a successful long term enviroment for the relocated club.
How will they know how to cope with a talent pool less then one of their feeder clubs?

If you want Kiwis I'll shove on the the jersey if it means that much to you
You may have to as there won't be much else.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Beowolf - Apologies about the NPC/Bartercard mix up, i was doing about 58 things at the same time when i wrote that post

Now, i have taken the time to listen to some of Mr Deaker and have heard others on several boards comment on his style.He is definitely a league basher and a huge union fan. And no, its not just someones opinion, because of heard the man and he is VERY biased.

"It has never been the Premier comp. International comps are the top level in Union. World Cup, TriNations, Bledisloe, Six Nations. Its seems only League suporters who think a provincial comp is the Premier comp."

If you read what i said in context, i was referring to the premier club competition. Theoretically, the s12 is the highest level of club representation that can be achieved. For it to have a lower standing in the public's eyes than the provincial comps is terrible. The s12 is where the money is, thats where the big interest and big dollars lie (internationally). Sorry to burst your bubble, but no one outside of a couple of million NZ'ders would give a royal toss about provincial NZ rugby. If the s12 collapses in NZ, it will do more damage then you think. It will basically suffocate Aus rugby, as there is nothing to support it below s12. There is basically no club rugby competition in Australia, and the sham that is set up in Sydney genuinely struggles to attract more then 50 punters.

"I'm assuming your Australian and you have no idea about the New Zealand Phsyce (sp) in regards to the All Blacks."

Yes, i am Australian, and yes, i know how passionate NZ'ders are about the All Blacks. But to go on about 'wide eyed kids in awe' and comments like that is just professional wankery. Its hilarious how most union fans create such an inflated image of everything and everyone associated with the code, but when it comes to the guts of it, 90% of it is crap. Most union fans are just left to live off the exaggerations and delusions set up by officals.

". That post was innacurate and bassed purely on his opinionions and not on facts."

Its rather hypocritical to blast a post because it had opinions in it only to come back and do the same thing. Does that make your post inaccurate to?? Do opinions necessarily make posts inaccurate?? Come on mate, get a grip

Moff.

 

[ozbash]

this is good
bronco is right about professionalism killing the game here. all the rising stars are quickly snatched up by the big 4 (auck,wgtn,chch and otago), leaving bugger all for the smller/lesser unions. leaving bugger all for the smaller/lesser unions ensures that the local stadiums have plenty of empty seats.

union is in sad shape here, soccer is the biggest growth sport in the country,the warriors must continue to win games for league to take advantage of unions fall in popularity.
i blame a lot unions troubles on the vintage attitudes the whole sport encourages.

beowolf, what part of nz are you from and welcome .

 

[imported_bronco]

By your standard then Penrith &North Queensland aren't NRLmaterial then. And a relegation match has the same intensity as a grand final. The Bay had everything to lose. You also forget that three yearsago when the bay were still in the second division they almost beat Auckland for the Shield. In in comp in order for an upset to happen there has to be a reasonable ability in the team. If they can beat a first division team then they can lay in first division. Again the size of the gap is only your opinion.
Your saying this huge gap is detrimental to the NPC and yet you also say it is the same in every sport.
Yet one of those teams is the smallest province in the country and only the last year with the same team won the third division. How is this possible with such a huge gap in divisions?

All of this is also just your opinion, I have my opinion on the size of the gap and you have yours. Personally I think your as blind as you come if you can't see it but once again its my opinion so can we cut the right and wrong crap.

You say they were outclassed, yet they still almost won it. And what are you saying that if the All Black lose the 2003 World cup by a point Kiwis will switch off the All Blacks? Not a chance. If you think that the NZ public will switch to League if the All Blacks lose then you really need help. Win or lose the All Blacks are New Zealands team. The history and tradition will see to that.
No they did not nearly win the first test against Australia. They were totally outclassed.
No I wasn't saying they would completely shut off the All Blacks but a loss in the 2003 world cup will see even more fans disgruntled union. One again this is all purely your opinion against mine and neither of us is backing down.




Your opinion. The old saying "once biten, twice shy" comes to mind. Withthe good season this year of the Warriors what was the top topic in thepapers, on the tv, in the pubs? The change of coach for the All Blacks and the November tour.
The Warriors got their fair share of press and the only way you could have missed this was if you locked yourself up in your computer room for a couple of months which could just be the case.

Yes the Warriors are an Auckland team, Pro Union has hit Auckland the most. And yet there was a sell out last year when Auckland where in the NPC final.
The Warriors basically sold out Ericsson for a match against the Cowboys. The point is success will always insure a great crowd but you have to admit that in recent years the blues crowds have been dead average.

The local comp is unheardof because it has no support. The number of teams fielded by clubs(Clubs still playing) has droped by two thirds since Union went pro. And the bartercard cup is lucky if it gets a thousand people to a game in Wellington
As I said give the Bartercard Cup time. Its only been up for a couple of years after the previous Lion Red Cup fell on its arse. The competition needs time to grow as its in its earliest stages.



Except for the last ten minutes there was no atmoshphere.
Your opinion

Exactly it has nothing to do with Union going down or Leaguee going up. It is all about getting that extra 1% tuning in.
Your opinion

Australians in an Australian team. Have you forgotten the uproar when Mark Graham bought a lot of Australians to the Warriors. An Aussie team in Wellinton will not work.
Yeah only for players like big Tooks, Death and Simon to all be accepted. Just look at death he got his own fan club up on the hill, some uproar, died down pretty quick don't ya think?

Easy to support a team that you will never have to go to a game. Not to mention that most Wellington fans are Union not League.
Your opinion once again.

How will they know how to cope with a talent pool less then one of their feeder clubs?
By Putting in systems in place. The Australian teams have got much better systems in place than New Zealand, its been said for a while that thats one of New Zealand leagues biggest problems. A relocated side is going to bring alot of new ways and experience with them.

Your so called open minded fans have complained every year when it was suggested that a few home games go around the country Don't you watch the news?
Funny how when I tried to use the this forums opinion is was discarded as just a small cross section of the league community. Well I'm really not interested what a few disgruntled fans on the news have to say because their once again just a small cross section.
The Warriors fans did have something to get upset about this year though. Mick Watson threatened to move the club to a different part of the country, its alot different that what your trying to make out.

As you can see I have lost all energy for this arguement because it is simply pointless. I have my opinions and you have yours. Yesterday we went round and round in circles I don't plan to waste another 24 hours on you. What you are trying to say is that your opinions are right and mine are worthless. I really have no time for someone who comes into an arguement with the attitude that he is on the higher moral ground.

 

[imported_bronco]

Your right bronco
Thanks but I don't think I'll be returning the compliment.

Now in NZ, rugby maybe going through a bad patch at the moment and one could say that it is down - but its definitely not forgotten. Its still the rave there - its their national game.
I'm not trying to deny its the national game but considering you are from Australia you have not whitnessed the negative response to every failure by the All Blacks. You have not whitnessed the negative attitude you get from people when you mention the All Blacks to them.

I think its good that no NZ team make it in the Super 12 semis - its good for the comp. I know a couple of NZ people that prefer the Super 12 over NPC. They still rate the NPC but the Super 12 is the better comp.
Oh its good to know for an Australian but as usual you think of number one. There wasa big backlash in this country not having a New Zealand side in the semis and cries to pull out of the tournament are slowly drifting up through the cracks.

On its knees? Whats that mean? So if the All Blacks lose the next game then rugby will die in NZ? If they win the bledisoe next yr, guess what? The aura will be back. I'm not even too sure if they even lost it.
It means that the All Blacks need to start pulling their heads in and performing because the New Zealand rugby public are becomming more and more disgruntled with the lack of results. The aura is gone at the moment, there is no way sides really fear taking on the All Blacks anymore.

 

[imported_Te Kaha]

Yet one of those teams is the smallest province in the country and only the last year with the same team won the third division. How is this possible with such a huge gap in divisions?

All of this is also just your opinion, I have my opinion on the size of the gap and you have yours. Personally I think your as blind as you come if you can't see it but once again its my opinion so can we cut the right and wrong crap.
You still didn't answer the question. How is it possible for the same team to win the third division and come within minutes of winning the second with your gap?

No they did not nearly win the first test against Australia. They were totally outclassed.
No I wasn't saying they would completely shut off the All Blacks but a loss in the 2003 world cup will see even more fans disgruntled union. One again this is all purely your opinion against mine and neither of us is backing down.

The original post refeered to the final match in which they almost won. Not the first where they were indeed outclased. You are selective in your posting. In '91 when they lost the cup and played terribly there were those same disgruntled rumbings. Did the fans turn away. NO. Same thing now. They will continue to grumble but will still stick to the All Blacks. They will NEVER turn their backs on the All Blacks.

The Warriors got their fair share of press and the only way you could have missed this was if you locked yourself up in your computer room for a couple of months which could just be the case.
Granted, however it was miniscule compared to Union. for every Warriors story there was a dozen union stories.

The Warriors basically sold out Ericsson for a match against the Cowboys. The point is success will always insure a great crowd but you have to admit that in recent years the blues crowds have been dead average
You answered your own point. The Blues have been average. They now have a CEO who turned around Wellington. We shall see what happens when the Blues come right again.

As I said give the Bartercard Cup time. Its only been up for a couple of years after the previous Lion Red Cup fell on its arse. The competition needs time to grow as its in its earliest stages
Watch how long it lasts when only Auckland teams dominate. All the talent is now consintrated in Auckland.

Yeah only for players like big Tooks, Death and Simon to all be accepted. Just look at death he got his own fan club up on the hill, some uproar, died down pretty quick don't ya think
You forgot to mention the bagging that continued when the other bargin basement Aussie's failed to deliver on the field. Read that crap book Beleagured and you will see what I mean.
It also makes a hell of a lot of difference when there are no locals in the team. When the kiwis are the exception not the rule.

Easy to support a team that you will never have to go to a game. Not to mention that most Wellington fans are Union not League.
Your opinion once again

Go into any Bar/pub on a friday night and ask those people. They are your market. Try and find a league fan who does not profer Union.

By Putting in systems in place. The Australian teams have got much better systems in place than New Zealand, its been said for a while that thats one of New Zealand leagues biggest problems. A relocated side is going to bring alot of new ways and experience with them
And what will they work with????????????? Less then 300 registered senior players in Wellington. All the local talent signed to Union development contracts.

Funny how when I tried to use the this forums opinion is was discarded as just a small cross section of the league community. Well I'm really not interested what a few disgruntled fans on the news have to say because their once again just a small cross section.
The Warriors fans did have something to get upset about this year though. Mick Watson threatened to move the club to a different part of the country, its alot different that what your trying to make out.

And you believed Mick Watson??????? so it is true thereisone born every minute. They were never going to Move the Warriors. they tried to do the same thing for the Kingz.
In order for the Warriors to move games htey have to charge less for the Season tickets. They aren't secure enough for that and won't be for years to come.
Actully if you want to your the forums. Try the Grandstand at RLeague.com a thread about Adelaide and perth and see how many Australians want a second NZ team.

As you can see I have lost all energy for this arguement because it is simply pointless. I have my opinions and you have yours. Yesterday we went round and round in circles I don't plan to waste another 24 hours on you. What you are trying to say is that your opinions are right and mine are worthless. I really have no time for someone who comes into an arguement with the attitude that he is on the higher moral ground.

I am saying your opinion that "Right now Union is on its knees" and "Unions powerhouse New Zealand is struggling." is wrong. Your whole thread was about how much trouble the game is in New Zealand. Thats just dead wrong.

MFC
If you read what i said in context, i was referring to the premier club competition. Theoretically, the s12 is the highest level of club representation that can be achieved. For it to have a lower standing in the public's eyes than the provincial comps is terrible. The s12 is where the money is, thats where the big interest and big dollars lie (internationally). Sorry to burst your bubble, but no one outside of a couple of million NZ'ders would give a royal toss about provincial NZ rugby. If the s12 collapses in NZ, it will do more damage then you think. It will basically suffocate Aus rugby, as there is nothing to support it below s12. There is basically no club rugby competition in Australia, and the sham that is set up in Sydney genuinely struggles to attract more then 50 punters
Who said the Super 12 was going to Collapse in NZ. The NPC is regarded higher but the super 12 still averages higher games then any team in the NRL. And why is it terrible. New Zealaders know that the super 12 is mearly for the Australians. That was the reason it was set up. So Australia would have a "domestic" comp. AND the super 12 is not a club comp. it is a Provincial comp. All representitive teams.

Yes, i am Australian, and yes, i know how passionate NZ'ders are about the All Blacks. But to go on about 'wide eyed kids in awe' and comments like that is just professional wankery. Its hilarious how most union fans create such an inflated image of everything and everyone associated with the code, but when it comes to the guts of it, 90% of it is crap. Most union fans are just left to live off the exaggerations and delusions set up by officals.

It may have been corny but unless you were there that day your argument means nothing.

Its rather hypocritical to blast a post because it had opinions in it only to come back and do the same thing. Does that make your post inaccurate to?? Do opinions necessarily make posts inaccurate?? Come on mate, get a grip

None of his opinions can be backed up with facts. Ask away and I will provide the facts to back up mine.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I cant offer a long reply at the moment, but let me quickly allow you to back up this one...

"Granted, however it was miniscule compared to Union. for every Warriors story there was a dozen union stories."

OK then, back this point up. Your use of the word miniscule gives me an indication that this is your opinion, so i would love some facts to back it up. More specifically, in the week leading up to the Warriors vs Parra semi final game a few months back, id love to see the number of league to union stories in the NZ media. If possible, the Auckland based media.Union has not fared well in Auckland as of late, whereas the warriors have been improving and got a sellout 25,000 crowd against the cellar dwellers in their last regular season match. Id also love to see some proof in relation to your claim of their being 12 union stories for every 1 league story....Starting backing up!

Cheers,
Moff.

 

[legend]

A very interesting thread but a little hard to follow at times.

In Australia RL is the sleeping giant of Australian sport with only poor management issues and a bad taste left in the mouths of many from the SL war which has weighed the game down. Now the game is starting to reclaim it's rightful position within the mindset of the Australian public, RU in Australia will be the game to suffer, especially with the impending introduction of a fourth Super 12 side with little depth but an open chequebook to try and prop up a side that is doomed to fail.

There are not enough quality players within the ranks of the Australian RU to make up three sides let alone four and this will be a financial catastrophe for the ARU.

The Wallabies golden run is at an end with some poor results of late(fact) and a shallow talent pool(fact) which is highlighted by the purchase of Mat Rogers and Wendell Sailor for exorbitant amounts which is having a negative effect on the junior ranks of the sport(fact) with some disgruntled youngsters looking to league(fact).

I can't speak with any confidence about the situation of Rugby within New Zealand but if the Warriors can mantain there successful rebirth they will become a much bigger threat to RU in NZ with more and more youngsters aspiring to make the Warriors side and then onto the Kiwi's. This can only be good for RL and bad for RU.

The last obstacle is for the Kiwi's to beat the Australia in a test series which would place unprecedented spotlight on RL within NZ and then a flow onto the Warriors. You may think these scenarios are far fetched and that is your opinion but with the RFL looking to schedule more internationals which will lead to a better quality opposition the future is bright for Rugby League.

The simple fact is New Zealand can't sustain two successful international rugby(union or league) sides with such a small population so something has to give and with the Warriors making their maiden appearance in the semi finals of the hardest competition in the world and no NZ Super 12 side making the semis of an artificial mickey mouse round robin competition,even Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder can see which way things are heading.

 

[imported_bronco]

You still didn't answer the question. How is it possible for the same team to win the third division and come within minutes of winning the second with your gap?
As I said there are exceptions to the rule. Marlborough are the only other team that comes to mind that have suceeded in the second division. Most teams that come up are cellar dwellars. There is a definite gap gap between the first and second divisions and as I said you'd have to be blind not to see it.

The original post refeered to the final match in which they almost won. Not the first where they were indeed outclased. You are selective in your posting. In '91 when they lost the cup and played terribly there were those same disgruntled rumbings. Did the fans turn away. NO. Same thing now. They will continue to grumble but will still stick to the All Blacks. They will NEVER turn their backs on the All Blacks.
This once again is your opinion. You are using the past to back up your opinion. We are in a different situation now and theres alot more sports sharing the market these days. Once again most of that is purely your opinion.

Granted, however it was miniscule compared to Union. for every Warriors story there was a dozen union stories.
That is your opinion, from what I saw it was a very even scale there for a while.

Watch how long it lasts when only Auckland teams dominate. All the talent is now consintrated in Auckland.
This is purely your prediction and opinion on what is going to happen.

You forgot to mention the bagging that continued when the other bargin basement Aussie's failed to deliver on the field. Read that crap book Beleagured and you will see what I mean.
It also makes a hell of a lot of difference when there are no locals in the team. When the kiwis are the exception not the rule.
I own beleagured. This really is your personal opinion and slant on the events that happened.

And what will they work with????????????? Less then 300 registered senior players in Wellington. All the local talent signed to Union development contracts.
And what are Melbourne working with? Alot less than that. Whenever you go into a new region you have to bring in imports to start with and work from the ground up. You have to remember bringing in a league team into the Wellington region will see a hell of a lot more kids taking up the game.

And you believed Mick Watson??????? so it is true thereisone born every minute. They were never going to Move the Warriors. they tried to do the same thing for the Kingz.
In order for the Warriors to move games htey have to charge less for the Season tickets. They aren't secure enough for that and won't be for years to come.
Actully if you want to your the forums. Try the Grandstand at RLeague.com a thread about Adelaide and perth and see how many Australians want a second NZ team.
Your missing my point. Of course Warriors fans in Auckland are going to complain when their team is threatened. Its a hell of alot different than the situation you were trying to play it off as. It was only a ploy to get more people through the gates at Ericsson but a threat is a threat.
No I won't be checking out the Grandstand because you have already said that these forums really don't mean anything because their just a small cross section.

I am saying your opinion that "Right now Union is on its knees" and "Unions powerhouse New Zealand is struggling." is wrong. Your whole thread was about how much trouble the game is in New Zealand. Thats just dead wrong.
That is my opinion and who the hell are you to to come in here and tell me that mine is wrong when your basing your own arguement on opinion.
I won't be answering anymore because as I've said its going round and round in circles but you obviously have fun chasing your tail, something I derive no pleasure from.

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

This reminds me of the good ol' brawls in WORL's glory days. Quoting your opponent's posts and methodically taking apart their arguments. I always found that logic, a lack of emotion, and a little bit of arrogance the best form of attack. I'd participate in this debate, except :

a) I don't know enough about the situation in NZ;

b) I don't have the time to do myself justice;

c) Deep in my heart, I know that union is a game for chumps, and that is a fact not worth arguing.

Whatever the case, arguments like thisare the one thing that this forum has lacked, and it's good to see one erupt. Still, it's a pity that there hasn't been any abuse. Perhaps we need to bring Studebaker back.

 

[legend]

Mystery Man or Dog-T or Johnny Rico, I never know which one to call you, good to see you make a cameo appearance.

I agree, there arent enough big verbal debates on here although there have been a few(WTC) that have been fairly heated at times and with a few union types starting to creep in it will only be a matter of time before the proverbial hits the fan.

If you want a good slanging match just start a post about why St George would not exist in their own right without Illawarra.

As far as the arguments go, well it must be the good management within the forum.

 

[Marcus]

"In Australia RL is the sleeping giant of Australian sport with only poor management issues and a bad taste left in the mouths of many from the SL war which has weighed the game down. Now the game is starting to reclaim it's rightful position within the mindset of the Australian public, RU in Australia will be the game to suffer, especially with the impending introduction of a fourth Super 12 side with little depth but an open chequebook to try and prop up a side that is doomed to fail." - Legend

League the sleeping giant of Australia??? Sorry mate, you have lost me here.

NRL is now reclaiming its rightful position within the mindset of the Australian public? I like to see where. The crowds in the NRL have been down on a whole this yr, the majority of clubs have seen a 5%-15% decline in attendence. One prime example is the Broncos, in 1993/4 they where averaging over 40K a match. In the SL era they were getting somewhere under 30K. Now in 2001 they average less than 20K. A lot of clubs are making losses with only a few actually making money. Using the Broncos as an example again, they use to rake in the the most amount of profit for any NRL club. Now, they are suffering, they are hardly making any money which is terrible considering they are the only NRL team in a city of 1.4 million. They are not attracting sponsorship like they use to, and a recent article on the Broncos situation (Courier Mail) confirms what I have stated here.

Here are the crowd averages of the NRL. Only 3 clubs average above 15K. None above 20K. 2 below 10K. Do these figures suggest that the Oz public are flocking back the league? Is it back in their mindset?

The Question remains, when will News Ltd stop propping up league? (league is too dependent on News Ltd - biggest weakness)
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 border=1> <tbody> <tr> <td width="50%" bgcolor=#1f6794 colspan=2> Home Crowd Averages</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">19704: Brisbane</td> <td align=left width="50%">12409: Sharks</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">17553: Newcastle</td> <td align=left width="50%">11980: Melbourne</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">16671: Parramatta</td> <td align=left width="50%">11831: St.George-Illawarra</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">14420: Bulldogs</td> <td align=left width="50%">10980: Penrith</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">13133: North Qld</td> <td align=left width="50%">10239: Northern Eagles</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">12765: Warriors</td> <td align=left width="50%">9604: Wests Tigers</td></tr> <tr> <td align=left width="50%">12535: Sydney Roosters</td> <td align=left width="50%">9526: Canberra</td></tr></tbody></table>
One thing that will be obvious is that if Victoria get the Oz 4th Super 14 team, then I feel that the Storm will struggle badly - money and fans. And so they will have to relocate to either CC or GC to remain solvent. I can assure you that the people in the NRL hope that Vic doesn't get that extra team. Melbourne people tend to favour rugby over league. "There are not enough quality players within the ranks of the Australian RU to make up three sides let alone four and this will be a financial catastrophe for the ARU." - Legend To say that a Super 14 side is set to fail is a load of BS. The VRU has even told the ARU that they already have many coporate sponsors that are willing to invest in a Victoria side. You say there is a lack of depth, but I disagree. There are a good handful of Oz players playing in Europe at the moment. There are also some fringe players in Oz Super 12 sides that would jump at a break in playing Super 14 rugby. So there is depth. To suggest that they will be a losing team is quite true. No ones expecting the team to be champions to start off with, the oddswill be always against an expansion team to have a winning season.Undoubtly there will be a 5 yr plan to make the side competitive. "The Wallabies golden run is at an end with some poor results of late(fact) and a shallow talent pool(fact) which is highlighted by the purchase of Mat Rogers and Wendell Sailor for exorbitant amounts which is having a negative effect on the junior ranks of the sport(fact) with some disgruntled youngsters looking to league(fact)." - Legend IMO the recent losses by the Wallabies is a good thing. They need a wakeup call, and they need to make changes to the side. There losses on tour reminds me of their 97 campaign - they did terrible. They made the changes and created a plan and - presto - they win RWC 99. Wendell may have got a large contract (ESL clubs offered more) but Rogers got an amount similar to his league contract. The fact that these Kangaroos even went to league must be had for leaguies to swallow. All this talk about league - "the greatest game" - is all baloney. Their defections to rugby must be a worry for the NRL, and I don't think this is the last of it. The main defections in my opinion will be in the junior ranks. Young kids that played league will now be seriously contemplating about a rugby career. I remember listening on B105 (brisbane radio) and one of the personalities (Jamie Dunn)on the Morning Crew was shocked into hearing that his son wanted to play rugby. His son was a mad broncos fan but he insisted to his dad that he wanted to play rugby. Imagine how many young league kids are thinking on that same wave length. Negative effects on junior ranks??? Participation rates in QLD has increased by 10% and in NSW a 8% increase. Kids defecting to league? The Canberra Raiders tried to hook Campese's nephew on a contract but he declined the offer to concentrate on playing for the Wallabies.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Marcus, lets look at club rugby crowds...The 'esteemed' rugby competition in Sydney, the so called home of union in Australia

Eastwood - 1
Randwick - 2
Parramatta - 3
Sydney Uni - 2
Norths - 1

OK, shall i go on?

Here are the number of dogs at each teams home ground

Eastwood - 60
Randwick - 75
Parramatta - 100
Sydney Uni - 2435
Norths - 3

Exaggeration?? I think not

And to be serious for a second, I have spoke to someone who works at Ticketek and i know that a lot of freebies are given away to waratahs s12 games. Not opinion, but fact.

"Kids defecting to league? The Canberra Raiders tried to hook Campese's nephew on a contract but he declined the offer to concentrate on playing for the Wallabies"

You base a whole example on one isolated case. LOL. Actually, if u WANT the facts, several of the schoolboys union team HAVE defected to league in the past YEAR. If you WANT more facts, then there are loads of other juniors who now play league that were rah rah schoolboy juniors for Australia...Fact

Moff.

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

Legend, I still think that Pepe is Johnny Rico. Since day one, he's been the one that I suspected. There's just something about the way he posts that makes me think that he's the culprit. As for Dog-T, I haven't heard from him since the Bulldougs pitiful exit from the playoffs.

 

[legend]

Marcus, get your hand off it mate. If union is so successful why did they offer the big bucks to the superior athletes of league to improve the boring and stale image of that other shitty code.

We have by far the best allround athletes pound for pound in any sport in the world and to suggest otherwise is the usual ignorance I would expect from Rugby drones such as yourself and beowolf but not at all unexpected.

With the re-introduction of Souths and a revised more competetive international schedul and increased coverage of the game, RL can only move forward. RL shot itself in the foot much to the advantage of RU but once we have our collective house in order union will be left in our wake.

I attended a Super 12 game earlier this year between NSW and QLD and it was deadset boring with no atmosphere. That's why I can judge the merits of both codes and RL wins by a country mile. NSW are a farce in Super 12 and to add a fourth side will only decrease the strength in each side to the point where you will have two cellar dwellers from Australia.

RU also does not have the marketable players like Andrew Johns, Preston Campbell and Darren Lockyer which RL has in abundance. Union only appeals to a minority of the sporting public with only upper class toffs and expat Kiwis and South Africans making up the majority of the supporter base.

RL will again be the peoples game and with the peoples team(Souths) back I can guarantee crowds will be on the rise next season.

As for the Broncos woes, ANZ stadium is to balme and once they move back to the refurbished Lang Park the Broncos crowds will increase.

As for your shonky figures on the increased participation rates in NSW and QLD, can you please explain why the ARU does not include schoolboys in RL figures and they are included in RU figures. As usual Marcus and Beowolf, I expect these questions to be dodged.

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

Moffo, I didn't want to get into this debate, but I've got to take issue on your club rugby crowds. If memory serves me correctly, the Sydney club grand final got a mammoth 12 000 spectators.

In addition to this, don't forget the great, live free-to-air coverage that the Super 12 final recei... Oh, that's right, the Super 12 final didn't get any live free-to-air coverage. In fact it wasn't on until about 11pm, now that I think about it. Sorry, my mistake.