Biggest brand in NZ sports - NZ Herald article

[Matua]

I generally agree with your post (I have no illusions about the Warriors ever overtaking the ABs, it would be weird if a national team in a relatively major international sport ever fell behind a club team in an Australian competition). I just wanted to highlight how extraordinary I found this comment, because "watches league but doesn't watch rugby" is genuinely the majority of sports fans I know. Of course, this is not a representative sample because as a leaguie I mostly end up talking code with other leaguies, but it's still a real thing. Maybe not to the extreme of "refuses to watch all rugby", but basically passionate NRL fans who try to watch every game, and might know the All Blacks result from the past weekend but would've only watched the game if they happened to be in front of the TV and there was nothing else on.

I guess it might just be an Auckland thing. Also, these are often people who grew up only playing Union.

I guess the only way to really figure it out is if one of the sports goes to another streamer and we see where people spend their money.

But realistically, 'your' majority of sports fans might actually be in the minority because the average viewership for Super rugby has been relatively high this year (despite idiots in the media comparing the total number v last year - which had one extra game a week - and claiming less were watching).

Most of the younger people I know are outside of Auckland, and the Aucklanders I know are all middle aged dudes who are Warriors and rugby fans, they don't watch too much league outside of the Warriors.

It's fascinating really because "I don't watch rugby anymore I just watch NRL" types are a major demographic in Auckland, but I can assure you that local rugby league clubs are far from thriving. I don't have the data to hand but it feels like a very minor sport in terms of player numbers.

According to the latest NZRL annual report there's 35k players, which is an increase of roughly 10k in the last few years. Which is a great result, however, to give some perspective there was 25k teenage male rugby players last year.

I've said before, maybe in this thread (it's hard to keep track of threads), that I think Covid saved league in NZ. Pre Covid in Auckland league had the biggest decrease in player numbers and the Warriors were in the doldrums. The hype around the Warriors finally returning to NZ to play matches invigorated the attending fans and some decent performances in 2023 helped push things along.

NZ league has to build on that now, but as you note it's still minor in terms of player numbers, and nearly died out completely in some areas (Hawkes Bay for example), and ensure this isn't just a flash in the pan.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

But realistically, 'your' majority of sports fans might actually be in the minority because the average viewership for Super rugby has been relatively high this year (despite idiots in the media comparing the total number v last year - which had one extra game a week - and claiming less were watching).

Oh yeah I'm definitely not saying my majority is the norm, but I do think it's a notable demographic and probably mostly in Auckland. There are probably two different demographics at play really - the old school "league people" and then those who've gravitated strongly towards league later in life. Anecdotally, there seems to be a lot of people in the latter category who are maybe 25-45 years old, but yeah that's very anecdotal and a self-selected group by me.

According to the latest NZRL annual report there's 35k players, which is an increase of roughly 10k in the last few years. Which is a great result, however, to give some perspective there was 25k teenage male rugby players last year.

That surprises me. I guess my exposure to local league is mostly the senior grades so I wouldn't see the extent of junior participation. The senior comps always seem to be struggling for numbers and even decent sized clubs can struggle to put a senior team out. My own club didn't have reserve grade team this year which is unheard of. That's a whole separate issue though, with the lack of pathways for players who stay in NZ past about age 18.

 

[Matua]

That surprises me. I guess my exposure to local league is mostly the senior grades so I wouldn't see the extent of junior participation. The senior comps always seem to be struggling for numbers and even decent sized clubs can struggle to put a senior team out. My own club didn't have reserve grade team this year which is unheard of. That's a whole separate issue though, with the lack of pathways for players who stay in NZ past about age 18.

Yeah, I think the big increases are in female players (which is true of rugby as well) and then there'd be quite a few from the national schools comp, but IIRC that's just a one off short tournament and not reflective of ongoing increased numbers.

One of the funny things about the HB comp is often a few Magpies will turn out for the premier comp league teams, which isn't a reflection of a choice of league over rugby but more that there's little to no trainings etc.

 

[JJ]

It's fascinating really because "I don't watch rugby anymore I just watch NRL" types are a major demographic in Auckland, but I can assure you that local rugby league clubs are far from thriving. I don't have the data to hand but it feels like a very minor sport in terms of player numbers.

They still watch the ABs though, or not?

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

They still watch the ABs though, or not?

Put it this way - when I think of people in this group, they'd be people where I couldn't tell you the last time we discussed the ABs, or debated the merits of a union player, but we talk NRL every day.

I'm talking about big sports fans here so I'm not saying they'd absolutely never watch the ABs e.g. if they're in front of a TV when the game happens to be on, but it's just not a factor in their lives. I watch ABs tests myself but generally I wouldn't know a game was on unless someone told me or I happened to be flicking through channels at the right time or was at a pub and saw that it was on.

I've always been mostly a league guy of course so there's a selection bias in terms of who I talk sport with, and also people might secretly follow rugby but not talk to me about it for all I know.

 

[ozenzud]

Put it this way - when I think of people in this group, they'd be people where I couldn't tell you the last time we discussed the ABs, or debated the merits of a union player, but we talk NRL every day.

I'm talking about big sports fans here so I'm not saying they'd absolutely never watch the ABs e.g. if they're in front of a TV when the game happens to be on, but it's just not a factor in their lives. I watch ABs tests myself but generally I wouldn't know a game was on unless someone told me or I happened to be flicking through channels are the right time or was at a pub and saw that it was on.

I've always been mostly a league guy of course so there's a selection bias in terms of who I talk sport with, and also people might secretly follow rugby but not talk to me about it for all I know.

My work place is 50 people. 20-25 years ago, 15-20 would attend a Super Rugby match on Friday, there was a picking comp and the firm held 8 season tickets to take clients to matches etc. Now, all but maybe 1 or 2 would ever go. No picking comp, no season tickets (nobody wanted to go), no discussion. A home town ABs match was big news back then. Now, not a ruffle. Plenty of warriors discussions every week. There are a lot of soccer fans now, but they nearly all watch the warriors but not the rugby and watching a test is far from compulsory.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I generally agree with your post (I have no illusions about the Warriors ever overtaking the ABs, it would be weird if a national team in a relatively major international sport ever fell behind a club team in an Australian competition). I just wanted to highlight how extraordinary I found this comment, because "watches league but doesn't watch rugby" is genuinely the majority of sports fans I know. Of course, this is not a representative sample because as a leaguie I mostly end up talking code with other leaguies, but it's still a real thing. Maybe not to the extreme of "refuses to watch all rugby", but basically passionate NRL fans who try to watch every game, and might know the All Blacks result from the past weekend but would've only watched the game if they happened to be in front of the TV and there was nothing else on.

I guess it might just be an Auckland thing. Also, these are often people who grew up only playing Union.

This paragraph is basically me. I don't try to watch every NRL game, but I do try to watch as many as I can and certainly watch all the highlights. I watch All Blacks highlights, too, but won't watch the game unless I am in mixed company with mates or in-laws which isn't that often.

Given I was rugby obsessed as a kid and teen, and wore out VHS tapes of Ranfurly Shields, 81 Springbok tour etc, this shouldn't be the case.

League will never usurp the ABs as a brand for myriad reasons and certainly league playing numbers aren't going to go within cooee of unions. But that doesn't mean the Warriors brand can't fly. It feels very cool right now to be a 'Wahs' fan (sorry Matua) and seems to carry a lot of cultural cache, which hopefully they can keep rolling. The more hype around this team, the more $, the more they invest in pathways, the more expectation on them (remember when they could lose and hardly anyone cared) and so on

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

This paragraph is basically me. I don't try to watch every NRL game, but I do try to watch as many as I can and certainly watch all the highlights. I watch All Blacks highlights, too, but won't watch the game unless I am in mixed company with mates or in-laws which isn't that often.

Given I was rugby obsessed as a kid and teen, and wore out VHS tapes of Ranfurly Shields, 81 Springbok tour etc, this shouldn't be the case.

League will never usurp the ABs as a brand for myriad reasons and certainly league playing numbers aren't going to go within cooee of unions. But that doesn't mean the Warriors brand can't fly. It feels very cool right now to be a 'Wahs' fan (sorry Matua) and seems to carry a lot of cultural cache, which hopefully they can keep rolling. The more hype around this team, the more $, the more they invest in pathways, the more expectation on them (remember when they could lose and hardly anyone cared) and so on

Yes its interesting isn’t it. I follow the ABs religiously and as much as I love the Warriors, I'm not as emotionally invested as I am for the ABs. But otherwise I don’t watch anywhere near as much rugby as I used to either. Most of my friends and family still do though, so I’m a bit of an outlier amongst them.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere I think the NRL’s greatest strength is it's autonomy. The IRL is generally toothless so the NRL can tweak rules and stuff pretty much at will, and they generally do it with fans (re: revenue) in mind.

As a result, the ‘product’ is highly watchable and it’s easy to enjoy games that don’t feature our own teams.

Conversely rugby’s biggest strength – its global footprint – is also one of its biggest weaknesses. Agendas and self-interest amongst WR members get in the way of rule and structural changes that might otherwise improve the game for fans.

WR expanding the TMO’s remit after SR had been trialing a reduction was an absolute mind fk.

 

[Matiunz]

Yes its interesting isn’t it. I follow the ABs religiously and as much as I love the Warriors, I'm not as emotionally invested as I am for the ABs. But otherwise I don’t watch anywhere near as much rugby as I used to either. Most of my friends and family still do though, so I’m a bit of an outlier amongst them.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere I think the NRL’s greatest strength is it's autonomy. The IRL is generally toothless so the NRL can tweak rules and stuff pretty much at will, and they generally do it with fans (re: revenue) in mind.

As a result, the ‘product’ is highly watchable and it’s easy to enjoy games that don’t feature our own teams.

Conversely rugby’s biggest strength – its global footprint – is also one of its biggest weaknesses. Agendas and self-interest amongst WR members get in the way of rule and structural changes that might otherwise improve the game for fans.

WR expanding the TMO’s remit after SR had been trialing a reduction was an absolute mind fk.

In my case the Warriors entering the comp in 1995 was got me watching sport (no one in my house watched any sport)- that grew my watching pretty much any sport there was a local team to support.
Warriors growing up were my number 1 team and until I moved to Aus it was very rare I’d watch an NRL game that didn’t involve them (pretty much no interest).
Union id watch pretty much all the super rugby games that involved an NZ team bar the crusaders and All Blacks games were an event.
Another Sport I used to watch religiously was cricket
Now days I barely watch cricket and even rarer to watch a full game outside of maybe a World Cup- not sure I could name more than one or 2 Black caps anymore.

Union I watch ‘most’ of the Hurricanes games but not too upset if I miss the odd one and catch the odd chiefs or blues games if I come across them, sometimes watch the odd mini match on Stan. All Blacks I watch but get more and more frustrated watching.

NRL outside of the Warriors is a bit hit or miss, If the Warriors go down early in the weekend the NRL is pretty much dead to me, if not I might watch games that have a direct impact on the Warriors ladder position or if I’m bored on a Sunday arvo I might flick it on but say a game like dolphins v titans does nothing for me.

When I first moved to Aus I went to every Canes/Chiefs/ABs game in NSW can’t remember the last one I went to, however that might be more of a life stage thing as I used to go to every Warriors game in NSW but now tend to go to 2-3 a year.
I’d also go to Black Caps and Breakers games when I could but that’s pretty much dried up too.

Meet ups with expat mates tend to be more Warriors than anything else

 

[Big Marn]

Yeh, rugby is in a weird place right now. It seems the best competition right now in terms of watchability is npc as they arent restricted by world rugby rules. But the best players arent on show and only the smaller areas will have decent crowds. But the bigger provinces, the npc is dead to most people. The union doesnt help themselves having a rivalry game like auckland v waikato on a thursday night instead of a weekend arvo.

League has definitely evolved from being full of thugs in the 70s and 80s to a more sanitised version which probably equates to Union 10 or so years ago. Union has gotten too sanitised under the World rugby rules and is now unwatchable on the whole.

League is definitely the better product going forward as long as they dont make Unions mistake of oversanitising the game

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Yeh, rugby is in a weird place right now. It seems the best competition right now in terms of watchability is npc as they arent restricted by world rugby rules. But the best players arent on show and only the smaller areas will have decent crowds. But the bigger provinces, the npc is dead to most people. The union doesnt help themselves having a rivalry game like auckland v waikato on a thursday night instead of a weekend arvo.

League has definitely evolved from being full of thugs in the 70s and 80s to a more sanitised version which probably equates to Union 10 or so years ago. Union has gotten too sanitised under the World rugby rules and is now unwatchable on the whole.

League is definitely the better product going forward as long as they dont make Unions mistake of oversanitising the game

Yeah exactly right. The NPC is the best product, it is 'amateur' enough that it still produces a high quality of rugby from decent players. From 2007-08 it was my job to watch NPC and I absolutely loved it.

You say the best players aren't on show (and you're right) but look at Tasman's backline this week - Christie, William Havili, David Havili, Springer, Aumua, Tavatavanawai, Taumoefolau + Ethan Blackadder in the pack. I'd be down to TGA Domain if I still lived there. It doesn't happen enough, unfortunately.

The one I miss the most is the Ranfurly Shield. There's still some prestige in it but back in the day, that was THE thing. I'd love to see a Meads Cup team win it and get it stuck down there for a while

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I honestly think the thing that aids league that hinders union, in some sense, is the working man's sport (league) v increasingly private school dominant (union). League has scandals every week. It revels in sensationalism. Whereas union has people in the media who are too intelligent for their own good, like Goldie Wilson - a highly respected, even-handed, deep thinker of the game who would never say something for clicks or controversy.

Rieko Ioane tried to be a villain this year, more than once, and got almost zero cut-through. If he'd been a league player, he would have been on the front page of the Telegraph, Buzz would have put him in the crosshairs, 360 talk about it, it's on socials, but in NZ it hardly made a ripple apart from a few things in the comment section.

Union just has a lot to overcome because its product is worse the higher the standard, the rules are largely Fed, the All Blacks refuse to play an open book PR game, there's no particular drama/rivalry/anything to really sell it on and even crowds at ABs games are largely boring. The only time it'll get anywhere is the Lions when they turn up in 2027.