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Bret Hart shoot video calls Triple H over-rated

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,178
Either he's working an angle or he's still clearly bitter about the past.

Calling Punk an innovator is a laugh. Somebody please send Bret some KENTA tapes please.
 
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2,857
I can kinda see where Bret is coming from...but youre right mate, Punk is a Jap mark. The amount of KENTA, Kobashi, Marafuji etc in his work is incredible.

Triple H has had some great matches but...his street fight vs Cactus at RR2000 is frickin top notch.
 

Valheru

Referee
Messages
20,042
Bret hart is just a bitter old fool TBH. I have heard multiple reports over the years of him being a very odd person and his PR issues over the years tend to support that viewpoint.

Not rating HHH in the top 1000 wrestlers is ridiculous; he has had quality matches for nearly 20 years. Rating the HHH/Undertaker match a 4/10 is equally ridiculous.

Bret is obviously not capable of being judging wrestlers/matches objectively. I daresay he overrates his own talents as well. A great wrestler yes, but IMO not in the top 5 of all time like he seems to think he is. His 5 moves of doom were cringe worthy at times, not to mention his mic work....
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I'll tell you whats in the top 5... of bad booking, how badly they booked Bret in WCW. I can't believe they essentially made him Hulk Hogan's lackey in the nWo, when he could have positioned as an uber face battling nwo scum.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,178
That's the way I would have played it too.

WCW mucked it up but booking Hart in 98 is tougher than it looks. Bret's a guy who was painted with strong WWE colours, in WCW, that was generally grounds for you being booed.

In hindsight, WCW should have let him rot in the WWE.
 

Valheru

Referee
Messages
20,042
I agree Bret hart’s booking in WCW was atrocious and we can blame Hogan for that. Why that feud never happened is beyond me.

However, I strongly believed the industry had passed him by then. He was a product of the early 90’s and just couldn’t move with the times. In an era where edgy storylines were the rage as opposed to the classic good Vs bad, he just didn’t have the mic work and attitude to keep up IMO.
 
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2,857
Fresh off teh Screwjob, they had a MONSTER of a storyline brewing which would have carried them through to the next Starrcade and added a dimension to the waning nWo angle...but they blew it.

Agree that the industry may have passed him, in hindsight...but at the time I remember Hart still being hot well into 99. His fued with Page wasnt that bad.
 

Agent Mulder

Bench
Messages
4,329
Fresh off teh Screwjob, they had a MONSTER of a storyline brewing which would have carried them through to the next Starrcade and added a dimension to the waning nWo angle...but they blew it.

Agree that the industry may have passed him, in hindsight...but at the time I remember Hart still being hot well into 99. His fued with Page wasnt that bad.

Very true, When Bret walked out on WWF after Montreal, Bret was the most talked about wrestler in either WWF and WCW, They way WCW dropped the ball on Bret Hart is amazing considering they were at the time the number 1 promotion in North America.

Bischoff had no forward thinking, He only wanted to beat Vince in the ratings, He gave huge big money deals to Hall, Nash and Hogan(Hogan had complete creative control written into his contract, Nash was made Head Booker and Hall could behave like he wanted and never even got a slap on the wrist for it) Dont get me wrong what Bischoff did in WCW was amazing but with that talent pool he had with the likes of Jerchico, Benoit, Guerrero,Rey, Saturn, Malenko, Giant etc etc and never pushing them to the top sooner after the NWO had warned was his biggest mistake.

Also passing on Triple H, Austin, Undertaker and Mick Foley didnt help him either.
 

afinalsin666

First Grade
Messages
8,163
The things that annoy me with Hart saying Triple H never had a great match are:
1. He has.
2. It completely invalidates his opponents who he had great matches with.

HHH v Cactus Jack Street Fight at Royal Rumble 2000, and the subsequent Hell in a Cell match at No Way Out were really good matches. Triple H was gold in those two matches, and so was Mick Foley. And you can't have one party working a good match while the other half is sh*t, because matches don't work like that. Apparently those were some crappy matches from Cactus.

Triple H v Undertaker at any of the three Wrestlemanias were great matches all. Saying they weren't is taking three great matches away from the Undertaker as well. Because it takes two to tango.

Three Stages of Hell v Austin No Way Out 2001 is one of my favorite matches, 35 odd minutes of brutality. I have no idea how anyone could say that wasn't a great match... The story told was epic.

Saying Triple H never had a great match takes away from his opponents as much as it takes away from himself. Bret Hart should know that.
 

Valheru

Referee
Messages
20,042
Not to mention his 2000 year as a whole. The matches with the Rock at Backlash and Judgement Day (I think) were both epic. His work with Foley in 1997 was also quite good. His work with HBK in 2002 and 2004, not to mention the triple threat at WM20 was also superb. The list goes on, Bret is clearly unable to let go of the past.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,860
Not to mention his 2000 year as a whole. The matches with the Rock at Backlash and Judgement Day (I think) were both epic. His work with Foley in 1997 was also quite good. His work with HBK in 2002 and 2004, not to mention the triple threat at WM20 was also superb. The list goes on, Bret is clearly unable to let go of the past.

and fair enough too... ive ready his book... and ive heard interviews from people around in that era...

HHH & HBK have been doing douchbag backstage things for years...

i haven't followed wrestling seriously in almost a decade so i don't know how its been lately... but i know that HHH & HBK were notorious for trying to keep The Rock down.

Undertaker im not so sure about... i dont remember Bret having too much of an issue with him from his book.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,178
Bret and basically the entire wrestling fraternity loves Taker - consummate professional inside the ring and always did what was right for business outside of it.

What I find strange is that Bret has forgiven HBK but is acting really petty about HHH. My take is that there's this subconscious hatred of Hunter based on Michaels distancing himself from Bret around the time of Hunter's arrival.

Also Hunter was supposedly behind the Montreal Screw-job aka one of the most unprofessional moments in wrestling history.
 
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2,857
and fair enough too... ive ready his book... and ive heard interviews from people around in that era...

HHH & HBK have been doing douchbag backstage things for years...

i haven't followed wrestling seriously in almost a decade so i don't know how its been lately... but i know that HHH & HBK were notorious for trying to keep The Rock down.

Undertaker im not so sure about... i dont remember Bret having too much of an issue with him from his book.

He's an adult. it was pretend fighting which he made millions doing.

Grow up.
 

Valheru

Referee
Messages
20,042
and fair enough too... ive ready his book... and ive heard interviews from people around in that era...
HHH & HBK have been doing douchbag backstage things for years...
i haven't followed wrestling seriously in almost a decade so i don't know how its been lately... but i know that HHH & HBK were notorious for trying to keep The Rock down.
Undertaker im not so sure about... i dont remember Bret having too much of an issue with him from his book.


I have heard of HBK trying to keep the rock down back in the day, but HHH? They practically made each other in the 98-00 period.

I have never really understood the HHH hate from the IWC as a whole. Yes he married the bosses daughter and blah blah blah but it?s not as if he isn?t talented. People seem to be particularly disgruntled with his 2003 title run; they seem to think he should have put the likes of Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash, Goldberg and Kane over (RVD and Booker T I can understand).

As for the Montreal Screwjob, yes it could have been handled differently but Bret seems to absolve himself of all blame which is ludicrous. He allegedly was happy to drop the belt to anyone but HBK; he was leaving the company, what was the difference? I understand HBK said he would never put Bret over or something to that effect but Bret was leaving the company and should have done what he was told and utilised his ?professionalism? that he keeps telling us about.
 

Iafeta

Referee
Messages
24,357
I have heard of HBK trying to keep the rock down back in the day, but HHH? They practically made each other in the 98-00 period.

I have never really understood the HHH hate from the IWC as a whole. Yes he married the bosses daughter and blah blah blah but it?s not as if he isn?t talented. People seem to be particularly disgruntled with his 2003 title run; they seem to think he should have put the likes of Scott Steiner, Kevin Nash, Goldberg and Kane over (RVD and Booker T I can understand).

As for the Montreal Screwjob, yes it could have been handled differently but Bret seems to absolve himself of all blame which is ludicrous. He allegedly was happy to drop the belt to anyone but HBK; he was leaving the company, what was the difference? I understand HBK said he would never put Bret over or something to that effect but Bret was leaving the company and should have done what he was told and utilised his ?professionalism? that he keeps telling us about.

Simple. Bret Hart had a contract that gave him the right to do what he was proposing. He was also willing (and this was largely backed by Wrestling with Shadows) to drop the belt to A) anyone but not HBK b) To anyone the following RAW. He'd been there for 13 years, he deserved the respect to have his contract honoured. The fact also is, the bloke turned down a MASSIVE contract from WCW in '96, to stay loyal to McMahon. He signed a 20 year contract, but when the WWF ran into trouble financially, they negotiated for him to leave.

Aside from the contract, most importantly, and as proven by Wrestling with Shadows, McMahon gave Hart his word. A man that goes back on his word like that would throw his own mum under the bus.

There were a lot of reasons why Hart wouldn't job to HBK in Montreal. It was NOT just a "this is Canada and I'm egomaniac about that". He'd been accused of sleeping with Sunny by HBK, according to Hart, HBK had said he would not do a clean job to Hart, well prior to this. HBK was very much an antagonist in Hart getting to the point where he insisted on his creative control clause being enforced. Again though, the worst thing, aside from the contract, McMahon broke his word to a guy who'd given him 13 years. Aside from that, it threatened the legitimacy of wrestling to a degree, wrestlers were conditioned to jobbing/working as per their scripts, they knew largely what would happen in terms of results before going to the ring, here that entire policy was completely ignored. Imagine if Hart hadn't insisted on losing, but instead went to the ring, performed shoot tactics on HBK, and utterly refused to lose... you'd have absolute anarchy, and you'd have a situation where the entire industry's ability to protect the 'work' part of wrestling was in contempt. The fact though McMahon lied to him till he was blue in the face, after 13 years, and all the concessions Hart made for him, that's unforgivable in my book, if I was Hart, I'd feel exactly the same way, and I'd have decked him too.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,860
Simple. Bret Hart had a contract that gave him the right to do what he was proposing. He was also willing (and this was largely backed by Wrestling with Shadows) to drop the belt to A) anyone but not HBK b) To anyone the following RAW. He'd been there for 13 years, he deserved the respect to have his contract honoured. The fact also is, the bloke turned down a MASSIVE contract from WCW in '96, to stay loyal to McMahon. He signed a 20 year contract, but when the WWF ran into trouble financially, they negotiated for him to leave.

Aside from the contract, most importantly, and as proven by Wrestling with Shadows, McMahon gave Hart his word. A man that goes back on his word like that would throw his own mum under the bus.

There were a lot of reasons why Hart wouldn't job to HBK in Montreal. It was NOT just a "this is Canada and I'm egomaniac about that". He'd been accused of sleeping with Sunny by HBK, according to Hart, HBK had said he would not do a clean job to Hart, well prior to this. HBK was very much an antagonist in Hart getting to the point where he insisted on his creative control clause being enforced. Again though, the worst thing, aside from the contract, McMahon broke his word to a guy who'd given him 13 years. Aside from that, it threatened the legitimacy of wrestling to a degree, wrestlers were conditioned to jobbing/working as per their scripts, they knew largely what would happen in terms of results before going to the ring, here that entire policy was completely ignored. Imagine if Hart hadn't insisted on losing, but instead went to the ring, performed shoot tactics on HBK, and utterly refused to lose... you'd have absolute anarchy, and you'd have a situation where the entire industry's ability to protect the 'work' part of wrestling was in contempt. The fact though McMahon lied to him till he was blue in the face, after 13 years, and all the concessions Hart made for him, that's unforgivable in my book, if I was Hart, I'd feel exactly the same way, and I'd have decked him too.
i cant argue too much with that... pretty much follows what i remember from the book.

i think the most interesting thing that i derived from Bret's dealings with HBK was the change in there relationship from early on to how it ended.

early on he and HBK had a good relationship... even to the point where i remember he wrote something about HBK helping Bret with his crazy family.

maybe he blames HHH for the the souring of the relationship between those two...

i know one thing though... HBK and HHH weren't the major vilans in his book... he saved his worst venom for his own family...
 

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