Canberra v storm

[Hellsy]

I can see your point, but I just don't like it. Like I said, I don't know how to fix their f**k up but I'm not happy with it the way it is.

 

[bartman]

Thats a bit unfair Bart.

You're entitled to your view, this one was merely my view of it.

The rest of the lower paid players would have plenty of integrity, and what are they going to do? Go to training and tell the team 'Look sorry, I think you are all a bunch of thieves and I can't play with any of you'. Yeah I don't think so.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at... maybe not going to training and having a whinge, but once they realise that your employers are arseholes that they don't want to be associated with, then you'd do you're utmost to get out there. That's what I'd do if it was a similar issue with employers in my career.

And if it's come about through an issue that's gaining some publicity you'd probably use the methods at hand to get the message out there that you want out pronto, also as a way of clearing your name and distancing yourself from the whole debacle. Let the ones who want to be "united together" take all the flack for being unrepentant cheats, and get out of dodge!

And Lowrie is not unhappy down there at all according to his Mum.

Fair enough, thought I'd read on here somewhere that he was mighty pissed off by the whole thing. If he's happy, then I guess I've lost a bit of respect for him?

I would hope though that the ones who are not involved can hold their heads high and know they are not in the same bunch.

I guess my view is that if you were not involved, and your employers were treating you like sh*t (as the Storm have done to all the players), then you'd hold your head high only after you'd arranged your own transfer pronto and ask for your release. They won't be saying no to anyone wanting to leave at the moment, they have to shed quite a few players!

 

[Suitman]

I can see your point, but I just don't like it. Like I said, I don't know how to fix their f**k up but I'm not happy with it the way it is.

Tbh, I'm just disappointed that the whole situation has arisen. This season was promising to be the best in years, and tbh, it's turning out that way.
A very close competition.
You have every right to be unhappy with current proceedings, but I'm yet to be convinced that there has been a better alternative put forward.
As such, I'll go with what we have.

Therefore, I'll give it to ALL the Storm players when they arrive at Parra, and I will back my team to the hilt far moreso than I did during last years grand final.
I'm sick to death of dishonest people in this world, and the Melbourne Storm have destroyed the principles that not only do I believe in, but those I try and instill in my children.
Try explaining to a 7 y.o. what a cheat is in the NRL!!!

Melbourne can go f**k themselves. I'll wave whatever note I have in my wallet that night at them, and they can deal with it - whether it is Cameron Smith or the lowest paid player in the club.

Suity

 

[Hellsy]

You're entitled to your view, this one was merely my view of it. !

Clearly we both are and I'm not going to get into the 'you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine' arguement that you like so much.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at... maybe not going to training and having a whinge, but once they realise that your employers are arseholes that they don't want to be associated with, then you'd do you're utmost to get out there. That's what I'd do if it was a similar issue with employers in my career.

But they are the EX-Employer's, not the current. And it is not always that simple. Our arsehole boss stole from our company but I am still a loyal enough employee that is happy to serve the new master until such time as I choose to move on, I toyed very much so with leaving my job but decided to stick it out to be with 'my 'teammates' in the hope things got better. I'd like to leave for career advancement, not because my employer got under my skin by doing something illegal.
Different wavelengths obviously but it's not like these players reported to the old board directly on a daily basis, in fact these lower paid players probably barely even saw/spoke to the board. Their boss type figure is their coach, not the people at the top. They come in and do their jobs like any person does their job.

And if it's come about through an issue that's gaining some publicity you'd probably use the methods at hand to get the message out there that you want out pronto, also as a way of clearing your name and distancing yourself from the whole debacle. Let the ones who want to be "united together" take all the flack for being unrepentant cheats, and get out of dodge!

If any of them wanted to do that then all power to them of course, I wouldn't look badly at any of them that wanted to move on. But I still don't understand how standing with your team under a new board of directors is a bad thing. The team will have to change next year to get under the cap so they could be giving up a huge opportunity to progress their career's.

Fair enough, thought I'd read on here somewhere that he was mighty pissed off by the whole thing. If he's happy, then I guess I've lost a bit of respect for him?

I guess my view is that if you were not involved, and your employers were treating you like sh*t (as the Storm have done to all the players), then you'd hold your head high only after you'd arranged your own transfer pronto and ask for your release. They won't be saying no to anyone wanting to leave at the moment, they have to shed quite a few players!

Same as above, he and the others could loose an opportunity to play under a new team structure if they choose to leave.
Some of these players were unwanted by any other team in this country... they have bills to pay and families to look after as well, it's not as simple as up and quitting.
I look at alot of these players as the same as the support staff I guess, the girl in the reception would have had no idea what was going on and nether would the club physion - the same as the guy who gets paid $55,000/year to play footy. Should we criticise the support staff for staying in their jobs as well?

 

[Hellsy]

Tbh, I'm just disappointed that the whole situation has arisen. This season was promising to be the best in years, and tbh, it's turning out that way.
A very close competition.
You have every right to be unhappy with current proceedings, but I'm yet to be convinced that there has been a better alternative put forward.
As such, I'll go with what we have.

Therefore, I'll give it to ALL the Storm players when they arrive at Parra, and I will back my team to the hilt far moreso than I did during last years grand final.
I'm sick to death of dishonest people in this world, and the Melbourne Storm have destroyed the principles that not only do I believe in, but those I try and instill in my children.
Try explaining to a 7 y.o. what a cheat is in the NRL!!!

Melbourne can go f**k themselves. I'll wave whatever note I have in my wallet that night at them, and they can deal with it - whether it is Cameron Smith or the lowest paid player in the club.

Suity

I hear you Suity, I just won't be giving it to all 17 players that's all

 

[strider]

i agree - no solution i've heard put forward is any better than the sh*t thats currently going on ..... melbourne just suck dogs balls, always have, we'll just have to live with it

my only concern with giving it to them when they play parra is it might inspire them to play better or even worse go a bit wreckless and injure one of our guys

 

[Hellsy]

Can U imagine if they did injure one of our guys?! They'd need to have police protection :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Suitman]

I hear you Suity, I just won't be giving it to all 17 players that's all

Ok then. I'm hearing you too.
I'll probably just give it to about 10 of them, under the collective name of Storm. ;-)


:lol:

I know where you are coming from though.

Suity

 

[bartman]

Clearly we both are and I'm not going to get into the 'you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine' arguement that you like so much.

Fair enough. It's not an argument though, it's just saying there is no one right or wrong answer, and no one's answer is better than anyone else's etc etc.

But they are the EX-Employer's, not the current. And it is not always that simple. Our arsehole boss stole from our company but I am still a loyal enough employee that is happy to serve the new master until such time as I choose to move on, I toyed very much so with leaving my job but decided to stick it out to be with 'my 'teammates' in the hope things got better. I'd like to leave for career advancement, not because my employer got under my skin by doing something illegal.
Different wavelengths obviously but it's not like these players reported to the old board directly on a daily basis, in fact these lower paid players probably barely even saw/spoke to the board. Their boss type figure is their coach, not the people at the top. They come in and do their jobs like any person does their job.

Yeah, and that was your choice to stay Hellsy. Clearly you thought hard about it and came to the decision that was right for you.

Good point about the ex-Employers (since Waldron etc moved on), and about the Coach being thei rday to day boss. But in the sense of a company and the direction it takes, the people at the top can be just a relevant too. In the Storms' case the employers at the top haven't really changed - it's their (same) Board that is going to make a legal challenge on the NRL - that makes it the current employers that would make me very uncomfortable to stay "loyal" to bosses acting like that in this situation.

If any of them wanted to do that then all power to them of course, I wouldn't look badly at any of them that wanted to move on. But I still don't understand how standing with your team under a new board of directors is a bad thing. The team will have to change next year to get under the cap so they could be giving up a huge opportunity to progress their career's.

I might be wrong, but I didn't think the Board of Directors has changed? I personally would look more highly on players that are being active about getting out - or getting next year's escape route confirmed and signed - than I would on players that are "staying united" behind a club in denial and whinging about the penalty (from player level up to Board). I hardly think as an opinion, that mine is unfair - different perhaps, but not unfair?

Same as above, he and the others could loose an opportunity to play under a new team structure if they choose to leave.
Some of these players were unwanted by any other team in this country... they have bills to pay and families to look after as well, it's not as simple as up and quitting.
I look at alot of these players as the same as the support staff I guess, the girl in the reception would have had no idea what was going on and nether would the club physion - the same as the guy who gets paid $55,000/year to play footy. Should we criticise the support staff for staying in their jobs as well?

I guess for me it comes down to once you know what's going on, are you happy about it? Are you happy about the response of your company (which so far is to publically whinge and start a legal challenge). So I could perfectly understand the receptionist deciding to leave because of this if she wasn't happy working for this company anymore, and that goes through all the staff and to the players not involved.

It can be as simple as up and quitting - all you have to do is be active in looking for another job, and go for interviews (in the staffs' case) until you land one, or (in the players' case) organise negotiations with other clubs for your next contract, which happens all the time and seems an ongoing process in rugby league now anyway. If the players do dislike their organisation, past and present, as much as many fans do, then the choice to act on that rather than hold back and wait is in their hands.

The players that aren't actively doing that, and/or making it publicly known that they are seeking other contracts (as many players do through the media these days anyway) will probably cop it from disgruntled fans that see the Storm still not taking steps to change their playing structure yet, and as a fan I don't have a problem with booing all 17 players who are happy to still turn up and not be publically distancing themselves from the organisation, as well the trainers and anyone else associated with them until they are legal again.

 

[WaznTheGreat]

People who yell out rubbish to opposition players during games are annoying losers.

 

[Suitman]

People who yell out rubbish to opposition players during games are annoying losers.

So what's your excuse on this board? :lol:

Suity

 

[bartman]

i agree - no solution i've heard put forward is any better than the sh*t thats currently going on .

Here's one idea that I had.


Let or force the Storm to release players immediately/from now on to other clubs in 2010, but clubs must demonstrate a willingness and ability to fit the said player under their salary cap in 2011 (or longer depending on the term of the existing player's contract with the Storm, so the player is not worse off).

But Melbourne have to keep paying the player their agreed contract money, so the other club would get the player for free (but it will count in their cap from next year).

This means that the player sorts out a post-illegal future, the new club still abides by the cap rules (just doesn't have to pay the player money since Melbourne have to honour the original contracts), and means that Melbourne are suitably punished by the speedier dismantling of their illegal team (instead of allowing them to delay the start of that process until the-off season).

Only when the Storm have officially released enough players to have their remaining squad of 25 under the cap for 2010, and those released players are all free to play for other NRL clubs against the Storm, then Melbourne can start competing for points from that stage onwards, starting at 0.

It will still probably take them until next year to get under the cap legally, with more dodgy payments still being discovered to more players. But at least this would make the Storm look like they are doing more than legal challenges and standing united, and they'd be less likely to be booed.

 

[Suitman]

Here's one idea that I had.


Let or force the Storm to release players immediately/from now on to other clubs in 2010, but clubs must demonstrate a willingness and ability to fit the said player under their salary cap in 2011 (or longer depending on the term of the existing player's contract with the Storm, so the player is not worse off).

But Melbourne have to keep paying the player their agreed contract money, so the other club would get the player for free (but it will count in their cap from next year).

This means that the player sorts out a post-illegal future, the new club still abides by the cap rules (just doesn't have to pay the player money since Melbourne have to honour the original contracts), and means that Melbourne are suitably punished by the speedier dismantling of their illegal team (instead of allowing them to delay the start of that process until the-off season).

Only when the Storm have officially released enough players to have their remaining squad of 25 under the cap for 2010, and those released players are all free to play for other NRL clubs against the Storm, then Melbourne can start competing for points from that stage onwards, starting at 0.

It will still probably take them until next year to get under the cap legally, with more dodgy payments still being discovered to more players. But at least this would make the Storm look like they are doing more than legal challenges and standing united, and they'd be less likely to be booed.

I like it Bart.
Deals would have to be expediated though if Melbourne wanted to still be included in this years comp.
Also, Players would HAVE to want to go to those clubs that wanted to buy them.
Negotiations would be protracted, and it could also drag on through the courts, but you have provided a better example of a result than anything dickwad Gould has come up with outside his critical orgasms.

Suity

 

[spartan2153]

Better solution. Take 20 points off them. SO now they would be on -8 points i think

It would take them to minus -8 from when they were found out.
- They play for points.
- STill have a chance to unload the wooden spoon to cronulla.
- Players have something to play for.
- Phil gould and steve mortimer can stop yapping about them no playing for anything.
- They have no chance of making the top 8

Plus for every 100k they are over the salary cap next year they lose 2 points

 

[bartman]

I like it Bart.
Deals would have to be expediated though if Melbourne wanted to still be included in this years comp.
Also, Players would HAVE to want to go to those clubs that wanted to buy them.
Negotiations would be protracted, and it could also drag on through the courts, but you have provided a better example of a result than anything dickwad Gould has come up with outside his critical orgasms.

Suity

Gould thought that the Storm could get themselves under the cap in the space of a month, and should be playing for points from then. :lol:

As you said, this stuff takes time, but it needs to start. And the Storm and Storm players need to want to get going on it soon, otherwise they risk not being able to play for points next season as well. No time (or reason) for any legal action, or any delay in working with the league instead of against it - players, coach, and management.

 

[Suitman]

No time (or reason) for any legal action, or any delay in working with the league instead of against it -

Unfortunately, it seems as though we have to try and convince their directors to be as mature in their approach.
Appears unlikely, which is a shame tbh.
Victorians. :roll:

Suity

 

[Suitman]

Gould thought that the Storm could get themselves under the cap in the space of a month, and should be playing for points from then. :lol:

I laugh with you.
Of course.......he said that.........but he never came up with a solution as to how it could be done fairly for all clubs.
Phil Gould has just become a complete knob in the past 4 weeks.
I have no doubt that others have thought of him as such before this time. This is just my opinion now.
I just wish he'd had alternatives instead of sproating off his big trap at every opportunity regarding this matter.
If he'd thrown up a few alternatives,.................I may have been prepared to listen.
He hasn't. So.......... I haven't.

Suity

 

[Hellsy]

Fair enough. It's not an argument though, it's just saying there is no one right or wrong answer, and no one's answer is better than anyone else's etc etc.

I know that, you just seem to tell us all the time. I live in Australia I know we all have freedom of speech regardless of gender/race/age, that's why I luv this country so much.

Yeah, and that was your choice to stay Hellsy. Clearly you thought hard about it and came to the decision that was right for you.

Good point about the ex-Employers (since Waldron etc moved on), and about the Coach being thei rday to day boss. But in the sense of a company and the direction it takes, the people at the top can be just a relevant too. In the Storms' case the employers at the top haven't really changed - it's their (same) Board that is going to make a legal challenge on the NRL - that makes it the current employers that would make me very uncomfortable to stay "loyal" to bosses acting like that in this situation.

I don't agree with alot of things our company has decided on, but my job outweigh's the decisions of the board that are beyond my control anyway. My liking of what I do and whom I work with everyday is more important to me.

I might be wrong, but I didn't think the Board of Directors has changed? I personally would look more highly on players that are being active about getting out - or getting next year's escape route confirmed and signed - than I would on players that are "staying united" behind a club in denial and whinging about the penalty (from player level up to Board). I hardly think as an opinion, that mine is unfair - different perhaps, but not unfair?

Yep I may be wrong there, but I thought there had been a change. Not a change as a result of this issue but a change when Waldron initially left. Perhaps they said 'Waldron and his staff' and I misread it to mean some members of the board. In any case they clearly have a new acting CEO whom is to see them through this issue in the interim and either he or a new person would be appointed long-term.
I think questioning the integrity of the lesser players for staying with the club that has given them a lifeline when no-one else wanted to give them any kind of go at all is not fair. I'm not talking about your Billy Slater's etc you can say what you like about them and I would probably agree!! I'm talking about those kids that are earning the bare minimum contract who would never have received extra benefits, the ones that were playing for the team and the luv of the game, not for the money - they are who I feel sorry for. But if it sits well for you to taint all of them with the same brush then we won't ever see eye to eye on that one.

I guess for me it comes down to once you know what's going on, are you happy about it? Are you happy about the response of your company (which so far is to publically whinge and start a legal challenge). So I could perfectly understand the receptionist deciding to leave because of this if she wasn't happy working for this company anymore, and that goes through all the staff and to the players not involved.

It can be as simple as up and quitting - all you have to do is be active in looking for another job, and go for interviews (in the staffs' case) until you land one, or (in the players' case) organise negotiations with other clubs for your next contract, which happens all the time and seems an ongoing process in rugby league now anyway. If the players do dislike their organisation, past and present, as much as many fans do, then the choice to act on that rather than hold back and wait is in their hands.

The players that aren't actively doing that, and/or making it publicly known that they are seeking other contracts (as many players do through the media these days anyway) will probably cop it from disgruntled fans that see the Storm still not taking steps to change their playing structure yet, and as a fan I don't have a problem with booing all 17 players who are happy to still turn up and not be publically distancing themselves from the organisation, as well the trainers and anyone else associated with them until they are legal again.

It isn't that easy sorry, it just isn't. You can luv your job and your colleagues but hate the management like I do. It is not an easy decision to walk away from that where the grass may not be greener on the other side. It is something I personally have BATTLED with for about 2 years now, and it has cut me in ways you would not believe. I don't doubt finding a new job/contract would be that hard it is the decision to do so.
You put it well with the bold statement I highlighted - my question is 'Are they unhappy with their job?' Maybe not. Maybe they are like me - luv their job and the people they directly work with, but just let the management decisions they disagree with go unmentioned and hope they go away.
Also I'm really not sure that if I was in the player's situation that I would be actively telling the Rugby League community that I am unhappy and I want out!! I'd be leaving that to the player manager to talk me up around other clubs quietly - burning bridges is not a good thing in any line of work. So maybe you will see some of these people come forward with new contracts in the coming months after they have been quietly negotiated so as not to de-rail a career.


Your other mentioned idea to Strides about how to handle 2010 season is interesting I might add, I enjoyed reading it.

 

[Suitman]

I know that, you just seem to tell us all the time. I live in Australia I know we all have freedom of speech regardless of gender/race/age, that's why I luv this country so much.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to hear the broken record.
It's hard to tell the difference between pete and Bart these days.
Next thing you know, Bart will be posting youtube links.

Suity

 

[caylo]

Just off the topic, if they are 1.3 million over the cap (as reported) for 2011, I want to think how that would effect them. If they let go Cronk (sign 400K), Slater (sign 400k), Hoffman (sign 250K), Tollman and Manu (sign 200K) that would probably get them under the cap (assuming they were all replaced with 55K players. That would be an ordinary line up considering guys like Finch are moving on aswell. They essentially would have Inglis, Smith plus alot of inexperianced backs and forwards... I think it will take them around 5 years to get back to anywhere near competitive so realistically letting them play for points now is futile.

Carlton did a similar thing and the afl stripped them of their draft picks and that just destroyed the clubs ability to be sucessful. Taking the premierships off them i dont think does much tbh, i think its a good idea but the players and general community will still consider them premier IMO.