Confirmed - Firman a Rooster for 3 years.

[Foz]

Luke Dorn $65000?
I doubt he would have left Manly for that.
It wouldnt of covered his ferry fare? Or is that a salary cap reduction?
Accountants of the year again- go to the Sydney Roosters accountant.
They/he should advertise because I want to make an appointment for June 30.

 

[elili]

I agree. Luke Dorn is most probably undervalued in my estimate.

Take $5000 off Ian Henderson (which puts him on the same rate as Todd Byrne and Chris Walker, putting one of them in the top 25) and take $10000 off Stuart Webb, giving both to Luke Dorn at $80,000.

Luke Dorn was an emerging half and fringe first grader on the outer at a non-competitive club. He was offered a shot at taking Brad Fitter’s no. 6 jersey at the Roosters, an opportunity any young half let alone one in his position would jump at.

Furthermore he was signed at the end of the 2003 season.

The Roosters already had a premier league half combination in Willie Bishop and Grant Rovelli. They were losing Joe Williams to South’s but were gaining Luke Phillips to replace Veratau (Brumbies) Rovelli (to halfback) at fullback.

Again all the negotiating power was with the Roosters. $80,000 or a similar amount may not be what Luke Dorn is ‘worth’ or ‘deserves’ to some. I personally don’t think he has proven all that much to ‘deserve’ or be ‘worth’ more than that. Again what he is ‘worth’ or ‘deserves’ is not the absolute nor even a strong determining factor in what is negotiated on a contract between a player or club.

$80,000 is a reasonable estimate at what would be paid on the contract negotiated between him and the Roosters in light of each others position.

 

[elili]

The Roosters Recruitment Program, Salary Cap Administration and Accounting Practices:

The Roosters have in place one of, if not the, best Recruitment programs in the NRL. It is headed by Arthur Beetson, an Australian selector, one of only seven Rugby League Immortals and an ex-coach. Artie brings an expertise and experience that greatly surpasses what most other clubs institute. The Roosters have a willingness to identify and target juniors and pay them above what other clubs pay to bring them to the club. They also have a loose feeder club arrangement with the champion Queensland cup side, the Redcliffe Dolphins. This together with the Roosters reputation as a well coached professional, premiership winning club with a well trodden road into rep teams, makes the Roosters Recruitment program one of the best in the NRL.

A professional, rich and successful club, like the Roosters, has a professional and successful salary cap administration and accounting procedure to compliment. A professional salary cap administration and accounting procedure means that the application of the salary cap is above all things efficient in enabling the coach to have the team he wants and allowing the recruitment program the width in which to best operate.

Salary Cap administration means being frugal to established players and clubmen, ensuring that there is not over investment in certain players or positions, ensuring there is value in players wages, ensuring that the extra salary cap concessions are able to be exercised, rarely buying established or star players, placing an emphasis of luring lesser players on lower salaries to the club and placing faith in the development and coaching programs of the club and lastly a willingness to make the tough decisions to let players go, even if they are loyal and long serving.

Accounting Practices mean balancing and loading of players contracts and the use of incentives to fit under the cap over different years.

A professional club with a professional salary cap administration and accounting practices will always have an advantage when it comes to player retention and recruitment when compared to an unprofessional and poorly administrated club.

Just because the Bulldogs, a wealthy club dominated by in-fighting and internal faction politics that at times produces an unprofessional administration, cheated the cap by making undeclared payments does not mean that wealthy, professionally run clubs with professional salary cap administration and accounting practices (which produce excellent retention and recruitment results above what other clubs can achieve), are cheating the cap. Clubs like Brisbane, the Roosters and the Panthers have an edge because they are professional, not because they cheat.

Furthermore since the Bulldogs salary cap scandal no club would dare be caught rorting the cap, it would be suicidal for both the club and the administers involved. This is a powerful tool for clubs to abandon any dodgy deals they may have had with players. I’m not saying there were dodgy deals before the Bulldogs saga, but that because of it there aren’t anymore (at least on that scale). Salary cap rorting post-Bulldogs is now extremly less likely. Because of the actions of the NRL taking away their points provides a very good reason for the clubs not to engage in dodgy deals that players and their managers are forced to respect. It is unlikely to the point of non-existence.

Baseless accusations of salary cap rorting aimed at professional clubs are motivated by a simple jealousy of those clubs professionalism and success.

Specifically a minority of Bulldogs fans maintain a jealousy of the Roosters for winning the trophy that so many of them had already put up on their wall and chalked up as a premiership. The further humiliation of losing to the Roosters in next years finals and the subsequent Roosters claim of vindication, especially after the promise of the round 9 and round 13 victories, has intensified that jealousy. A minority of Panthers fans remain jealous that even after defeating the Roosters and claiming the 2003 premiership, the Roosters are considered by many to be a better and more successful club.

(Of course many Roosters fans are jealous of the Panthers premiership victory and a host of other things like any other clubs supporters)

Jealousy is part of the rugby league world, but it’s wrong that these jealousies are held with such an extreme passion by some people.

Success should be shown admiration and respect not jealousy.

Victory should be greeted with humility not arrogance.

Defeat should be taken with humility not vindictive hatred and jealousy.

Rugby league should be enjoyed with passion, not destroyed by pettiness.

 

[Moffo]

Elli, whilst I may not agree with all of it, that was well written, well done

I won't be drawn into an argument about the Roosters salary cap position

 

[DJ1]

Try to keep the salary cap out of this discussion. Think about the player values when multiple teams are in competition for the signature.

 

[TheEye]

Try to keep the salary cap out of this discussion. Think about the player values when multiple teams are in competition for the signature.

Ok - so the argument is that the roosters have playing for them a team that other teams would give a left testicle for.... not that the roosters are overspending the cap?

Is that what you are getting at?

 

[bluesbreaker]

I'd prefer a full strength Knights to a full strength Roosters *shrug*.

 

[DJ1]

Do it for any team. What would be the value of the 25 man squads if all players were on the market at the same time.

 

[ozzie]

Look from the Roosters point of view, I think it's a good buy. Provides some depth and ensues that Finchy doesn't have to carry the load on his own, which he can't at this stage of his career.

But for months I read Roosters fans posts on these forums stating that you wouldn't need to, or that you wouldn't buy anyone else... you already had enough to cover Fittler's absense. Yet now everyone seems to be embracing the signing

*shrugs*

I'm not trying to start anything but you have to wonder...

wow one signing and you wonder - let's see how many Canberra buy!!

 

[ozzie]

I've heard about you mate and I don't want you anywhere near my arse :shock:

he would have to stand in line -

 

[Rooster Cogburn.]

:sleeper:

 

[Big Mick]

Big Mick:

"Should be paid" & "What he is worth" does not automatically translate into what a player is getting paid.

The players you have disputed like Minichiello, Hodges, Flannery, Crocker, Cayless, may indeed deserve more or may be worth more. That does not mean they are getting paid their 'worth'.

Take for example does an S.G. Ball player deserve to be in the top 25? Is he worth that much when he is so many steps away from playing first grade? Albert Hopoate was when the Roosters signed him.

There is no necessary connection between what a player 'should be worth' and what is negotiated on his contract between himself and the club.

The Roosters are nervous about the salary cap for a reason, underpaid players, emerging, junior talents and constant upgrading of player value.

I would be surprised if Byrne is being paid as much as $45000 to be honest, he is on pauper’s rates. He was a 22 year old uni graduate playing for the Coogee Dolphins before the Roosters pulled him from obscurity on a minimal wage of $35000. He is still not a member of the Roosters best 17 in the opinion of Ricky Stuart. He is a clubman. He may leave to get more money or a more secure position.

Just because players play regular first grade does not mean they are automatically in the top 25, especially at a club like the roosters that targets and pays big dollars for juniors who will not play first grade (regularly) in the immediate future, like Alby, Willie Bishop, Tupou, Mickey Paea, George Rose etc.

Walker is also still on paupers rates and he is on them for some very good reasons. Firstly he only wants to play at a premier club. Remember when he left Souths he wanted to play for the Roosters or the Bulldogs, the Roosters picked him up for $40000, as he was dependent on any offer from the Roosters so he could play again that season for a premier team. To a degree the same rule still applies. Walker has a set of liabilities that hinder another premier club making him an offer. He is prone to walking out on a contract. He is prone to off-field indiscretions that bring a club into disrepute an he has very big defensive question marks over his head. All these factors bring down any hypothetical value dramatically. More importantly Walker is committed to resurrecting his career at the Roosters, and only at the Roosters does he have a coach that shows the enormous faith in him that will enable him to do that. Walker won't leave the Roosters until he is back on top of his game and respected by the rugby league world. At the Roosters he is playing with the premiership favourites at one of the most professional club with one of the best coaches. The Roosters have all the power when it comes to negotiation, and walker is willing to accept pauper’s rates to stay at the Roosters. And Paupers rates are all he is getting.

As for Morley, yes he does take a big pay cut to play with the Roosters, you could allocate him a bigger wage under my cap estimate. But while money talks sometimes other things talk louder. Playing in the NRL for the Roosters is obviously worth something to Morley, and I don't think it unreasonable for that something to be more than any potential pay day in England, at least at this stage of his career.

I suspect Willie Bishop is in the Top 25, he is (or at least was at the time) one of the best young prospects in the game. The Roosters stole him from right under the Warriors noses (in one of the rooms at Aussie Stadium during the World Sevens 2003 while he was in a Warriors jersey), I think big dollars helped seal the quick deal.

You are right about Lelea, I have replaced him with Steve Crouch at the same rate. Lelea and Lopini Paea are however paid on both their own merits and also so that the Roosters can retain all three brothers including the future Superstar Mickey Paea.

You've made very fair comments, and its very pleasing to me to see you back up your figures like that instead of resorting to such things as "Your and idiot" like the rest of your peers.

However, my main two disputes with your figures are the figures of Adrian Morley and Chris Walker.

Now you'd have to admit Morley playing here for $200,000 is a bit unbelievable considering he can play for $600,000 in England, his home, where his family his. Instead takes a $400,000 thousand paycut to play half way around the world. I apologise if this seems stupid, I just find this to be unbelievable.

Secondly, Chris Walker. Now it was well documented last season when you signed him on that $40,000 contract that it was only a one year thing. Now if this is so, which I believe it would be, then he would have to be on at least another $100,000, because he would not, with his lavish lifestyle, be playing for $260,000 less than he was getting at Souths to play for the roosters.

Thats my 5 cents.

 

[Roosterphin]

I cant believe this thread is still going :blahb:

 

[Kiwi]

Roosters Top 25 Speculative Estimate:

1. Adrian Morley 200,000
2. Anthony Minichiello 200,000
3. Anthony Tupou 65,000
4. Brad Fittler 300,000
5. Brett Finch 300,000
6. Chad Robinson 70,000
7. Chris Flannery 160,000
8. Steve Crouch 50,000
9. Craig Fitzgibbon 210,000
10. Craig Wing 320,000
11. Gavin Lester 50,000
12 = Ian Henderson 45,000
13. Jason Cayless 175,000
14. Justin Hodges 180,000
15. Luke Dorn 80,000
16. Luke Ricketson 230,000
17. Michael Crocker 170,000
18. Ned Catic 65,000
19. Peter Cusack 70,000
20. Ryan Cross 150,000
21. Shannon Hegarty 200,000
22. Stuart Webb 60,000
23. Albert Hopoate 90,000
24. Willie Bishop 50,000
25. George Rose 60,000
= (Chris Walker 45,000) – Not in Top 25
(Heath Le-Strange 40,000) – Not in Top 25
(Luke Phillips - Match Payments) – Not in Top 25
= (Todd Byrne 45,000) – Not in Top 25

Total: $3.55 Million
Effective Salary Cap: $3.55 Million

http://www.nrl.com/about/salarycap.cfm?page=8 :
“The Salary Cap has in fact risen substantially since its introduction in 1998. In that year the Salary Cap was $3.25million for the Top 25 players and $500,000 for all players outside of the Top 25 regardless whether they played in the NRL.

As well as the $3.25million the previously mentioned allowances for 'long serving players' and 'new sponsorship money' have taken the available spending per Club to $3.55million. In addition, payments for players outside the Top 25 have been relaxed. Previously, Clubs could only offer $500,000 in contracts to their Second Tier players regardless of whether they were fielded in the NRL.

Currently, Clubs can spend as much as they can afford on development and recruitment of future players. They are however restricted to a $300,000 Cap for Second Tier players who take part in the NRL side that year. The end result of this has been to allow Clubs greater scope to invest in young players without being restricted by the Salary Cap.”

Suspected Over-Estimations:
Stuart Webb
Todd Byrne
Ryan Cross
Brett Finch
Justin Hodges
Gavin Lester

Thats just as funny as other lists posted by non rooster fans, some of those are hilarious. Finch on as much as Fittler and almost as much as wing, also on more than Mini, Fitzgibbon and Morley, again laughable. Walker may have joined on 40 grand for the first year, but I don't think he would have signed a 2 or 3 year deal for the same money. And do you honestly think Hodges would have taken a pay cut with the form he was in when he re-signed? He signed for what was reported at the time, 200,000 a year from the Broncos.

 

[rossy]

Try to keep the salary cap out of this discussion. Think about the player values when multiple teams are in competition for the signature.

When you said this earlier in the thread?

and do you think that one day a player somewhere will eventually sign with the highest bidder? Next we'll hear reports from Bondi of players paying the club for the right to play for the Roosters.


Cries of not enough money under the cap to re-sign Ricketson despite Fittler and Cross moving on?

Ricketson signs!

Another first grader signs!

Exposed again. You must get sick of being wrong.

 

[DJ1]

rossy, If you actually read the thread as opposed to trawling it with the view to seeking contextual statements, you may have noticed that the thread moved from discussions of Firmans signing to salary cap debate to market values of squads.

elili (a rooster supporter) put forward his estimates of market value and was being attacked for it. I (a Bulldog supporter) was defending the Rooster supporters right to his opinion on notional market value estimates.

There is no wrong or right here except for your assumption that there is.

 

[Freak]

Elili - Your a champion rooster supporter!
Well done on giving us your OPINION!!!

Just waiting on RC and Melon to give us their OPINIONS now!! ;-)

for the record I think Elili is fairly accurate. Maybe a few biased down gradings to keep under cap!! ;-)

 

[chooky]

If your not the player, his manager or the CEO then you don't know how much the players are on, so all this posts about this player is on this much is absolute crap and a waste of forum space! The estimates are biased and boring, get over it.

 

[melon....]

Elili - Your a champion rooster supporter!
Well done on giving us your OPINION!!!

Just waiting on RC and Melon to give us their OPINIONS now!! ;-)

for the record I think Elili is fairly accurate. Maybe a few biased down gradings to keep under cap!! ;-)

Are you blind? or just selectively stupid? Ive given you my opinion...go back and read it!

 

[Freak]

If your not the player, his manager or the CEO then you don't know how much the players are on, so all this posts about this player is on this much is absolute crap and a waste of forum space! The estimates are biased and boring, get over it.

Get over yourself.

In fact Im finding the player values opinions interesting and intriguing.

By the way if Chad Robinson is a $70,000 player I'd have 4 of him!