Do you want Brad Arthur as coach

[Joshuatheeel]

But just because he touches it x times more doesn't mean he should be getting x times more positive stats. He could be receiving the ball closer to the ruck whereas Moses could be receing it wider which means he's more likely to get line breaks or lbas. But that's why we watch the games rather than just looking at stat sheets and box scores.

I think I read somewhere on twitter that Norman is in the top 8 halves for positive contributions for how many touches they make whereas Moses was 17th.

Of course!

 

[Happy MEel]

If you'd answered my question at the start and told me what was happening in the opposition 20 I wouldn't have to sound like Pou!

The reason I asked that question is that my gut feel is that this is where there is a bigger difference in responsibility. Just a hunch based on watching every game half cut.

I’m usually full cut so probably not the best judge either. Purely from an observational point of view I’d argue they share a pretty even amount of responsibility.

For the record, this discussion was originally why Moses escapes plenty of criticism but Norman cops it whilst producing better stats. The obviously immeasurable questions re. What’s happening in opposition 20s, counts of being tackled with the ball and on the last and which edges have the better players came later after I refuted the valid point about number of touches. It seems that people keep looking for reasons to justify punting Norman. If attitude is your reason, I can understand it (although disagree) but it’s seems odd that on field performance seems to be most people’s go-to.

 

[Happy MEel]

Not to mention throwing the ball around without flowing off structure often allows the defence to dominate.

An offload is pointless if the defence is already marching, it's most effective if the defence is on the back foot or there is a lazy defender/gap in the defence around the tackle.

Sure. I’m not advocating for us to throw the ball around silly billy but we seem hesitant to show some creativity even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

There is a pretty strong correlation between completion rates and winning though isn't there? I don't imagine there is a coach alive who doesn't think completing sets is important.

Interestingly we completed at 85% and won, against the Knights it was 70% and we lost

 

[Bazal]

Sure. I’m not advocating for us to throw the ball around silly billy but we seem hesitant to show some creativity even when the opportunity presents itself.

No I agree with you. But it just seems to be that a few posters seem to think that chucking the ball around is the solution and "better" than playing structured footy.

FTR I still believe it all boils down to confidence and the perception of risk. And to a large extent, the fact that winning and losing are both habits and were are certainly not in the habit of winning. If we were coached not to throw offloads we wouldn't throw any, where the truth of it is we do throw them just not often (and often not in the right situation).

Honestly the best thing that can happen for this side now is the pre-season and to forget all about 2018.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I’m usually full cut so probably not the best judge either. Purely from an observational point of view I’d argue they share a pretty even amount of responsibility.

For the record, this discussion was originally why Moses escapes plenty of criticism but Norman cops it whilst producing better stats. The obviously immeasurable questions re. What’s happening in opposition 20s, counts of being tackled with the ball and on the last and which edges have the better players came later after I refuted the valid point about number of touches. It seems that people keep looking for reasons to justify punting Norman. If attitude is your reason, I can understand it (although disagree) but it’s seems odd that on field performance seems to be most people’s go-to.

I’d punt him for both on-field and off-field reasons.

 

[Happy MEel]

I’d punt him for both on-field and off-field reasons.

Well then you should also be considering punting Moses. Those attacking stats are very poor.

 

[Bazal]

I’d punt him for both on-field and off-field reasons.

I'd keep him myself, at least until his contract was up, UNLESS we could replace him with a good quality player.

I'm not against potentially signing Brock Lamb as rumoured, because he'd be a decent partner for Brown in the Wenty side/as a back-up for FG and I just don't think Salmon is a half...but not to replace Norman. You'd want a Connor Watson (for eg) or someone IMO.

 

[Happy MEel]

No I agree with you. But it just seems to be that a few posters seem to think that chucking the ball around is the solution and "better" than playing structured footy.

FTR I still believe it all boils down to confidence and the perception of risk. And to a large extent, the fact that winning and losing are both habits and were are certainly not in the habit of winning. If we were coached not to throw offloads we wouldn't throw any, where the truth of it is we do throw them just not often (and often not in the right situation).

Honestly the best thing that can happen for this side now is the pre-season and to forget all about 2018.

Can’t argue with any of that.

 

[Gary Gutful]

Well then you should also be considering punting Moses. Those attacking stats are very poor.

Can’t punt both right now (Salary cap) but if Moses didn’t perform as the primary playmaker next year he’d be gone as well.

He did well when Norman was out last year though so he’s definitely capable.

 

[Gary Gutful]

I'd keep him myself, at least until his contract was up, UNLESS we could replace him with a good quality player.

I'm not against potentially signing Brock Lamb as rumoured, because he'd be a decent partner for Brown in the Wenty side/as a back-up for FG and I just don't think Salmon is a half...but not to replace Norman. You'd want a Connor Watson (for eg) or someone IMO.

Yeah. Me too. I wouldn’t throw him away without a Plan B.

 

[Happy MEel]

I'd keep him myself, at least until his contract was up, UNLESS we could replace him with a good quality player.

I'm not against potentially signing Brock Lamb as rumoured, because he'd be a decent partner for Brown in the Wenty side/as a back-up for FG and I just don't think Salmon is a half...but not to replace Norman. You'd want a Connor Watson (for eg) or someone IMO.

Yep. This was the basis for the whole discussion really. The problem is that you only really want to take them for a 1 year contract until Brown is ready to step up. He’ll need an experienced half alongside him so either Moses and Norman can play that role in 2020. You don’t want to be paying the kind of money Watson or Elgey would be commanding as backups.

 

[Happy MEel]

Yeah. Me too. I wouldn’t throw him away without a Plan B.

FFS. You could have just said this 4 hours ago and saved my phone plenty of battery!!

 

[Bazal]

Yep. This was the basis for the whole discussion really. The problem is that you only really want to take them for a 1 year contract until Brown is ready to step up. He’ll need an experienced half alongside him so either Moses and Norman can play that role in 2020. You don’t want to be paying the kind of money Watson or Elgey would be commanding as backups.

I think two years, myself.

Brown is only 18 remember. He may not even be ready to start 2020, physically speaking. I also don't think you can put all your eggs in that basket given that he's 18. Dargan was the next big thing at a similar age (albeit not as good as Brown is). I think if you want to shift Norman and you get the opportunity to grab a Watson or similar for 2-3 years and move Corey on now, then fair play, go for it.

Moses is off contract end of next year too, so you've got options.

 

[Happy MEel]

Interestingly we completed at 85% and won, against the Knights it was 70% and we lost

Whilst there is little doubt a good completion rate will go some way to winning you a game of football, that’s a fairly flakey stat. We beat the Cowboys with a 70% completion rate and got belted by the knights with an 84% completion.

 

[Happy MEel]

I think two years, myself.

Brown is only 18 remember. He may not even be ready to start 2020, physically speaking. I also don't think you can put all your eggs in that basket given that he's 18. Dargan was the next big thing at a similar age (albeit not as good as Brown is). I think if you want to shift Norman and you get the opportunity to grab a Watson or similar for 2-3 years and move Corey on now, then fair play, go for it.

Moses is off contract end of next year too, so you've got options.

I take your point but IMO that’s another reason to keep Corey next year as we’ll have a much better gauge of Brown’s capability as a 1st grade half for 2020. We can then make an informed decision without being locked into paying someone like Watson longer than we have to. I think we need to bank on one of Norman or Moses getting an extension as I don’t think a combination of Brown and Watson would be good for his development.

 

[eel01s]

The problem with most of our completed sets is that we only make 30-40m coming off our line. Couple that with the midfield bombs and you can see that we are not putting defences under enough pressure.

 

[Gronk]

Whilst there is little doubt a good completion rate will go some way to winning you a game of football, that’s a fairly flakey stat. We beat the Cowboys with a 70% completion rate and got belted by the knights with an 84% completion.

Well yeah you need to have 50% of the ball and complete at 80%, not have Perenara as ref and not miss many tackles.

You could literally only have the ball for 12 sets the whole game, complete at 90% and get beat by 50.

 

[Bazal]

I take your point but IMO that’s another reason to keep Corey next year as we’ll have a much better gauge of Brown’s capability as a 1st grade half for 2020. We can then make an informed decision without being locked into paying someone like Watson longer than we have to. I think we need to bank on one of Norman or Moses getting an extension as I don’t think a combination of Brown and Watson would be good for his development.

The thing with Watson (for the sake of the example) is that he has almost as much value to a side as a utility as he does as half. Maybe more.

I'd be keeping Corey too as I've said. But if he's not part of the plan moving forward then there is definitely a solid argument for trading him out, if the replacement is good enough. And I rate Brown highly but I also think you have to see him as secondary to the plan until he proves otherwise.

Personally I'd rather have a situation like Penrith or Melbourne, with guys like Luai, May, Croft waiting their turn than have a situation like the Gold Coast (or us right now in terms of halves depth, for that matter).

 

[Joshuatheeel]

Whilst there is little doubt a good completion rate will go some way to winning you a game of football, that’s a fairly flakey stat. We beat the Cowboys with a 70% completion rate and got belted by the knights with an 84% completion.

True, the knights game was a shocker. It did help that the cowboys completed at 60%.