What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

ESL decrease to 12 teams..??

Perth Tiger

Bench
Messages
3,220
It would be a real shame if they did reduce it back to 12 and wouild make it even harder for expansion teams to get a look in
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
Cant see it happening. I think it will stay at 14, with maybe just the one club dropped and Widnes promoted, but I cant see it going back to 12.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
It isnt the end of the world.

Toulouse up, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford down.

this would leave an awesome NL1, which would have good strong clubs who can take their time and build a proper case for long term success in the ESL. Castleford, Wakefield, Widnes, Salford, Halifax etc would all be very strong clubs and exactly what the national league should be full of. I dont think they would lose that much support, either, as they would be competing against many of their long time rivals and big name clubs. It gives them a chance to be competive. To be honest, if these clubs got in on the basis three years ago that they were building stadiums, they can have nothing to argue if they are expelled for three years unyil they actually get those stadiums.

To be honest, they never really should have went from 12 to 14 anyway. Particularly since they elected not to include the Toulouse!
 

bartman

Immortal
Messages
41,022
The crisis-hit Crusaders and Salford City Reds – promoted last time around – are the obvious clubs who will fear the worst but Wakefield Trinity Wildcats and Castleford Tigers will also be fretting about the 12 months ahead as they have already been warned by the RFL for the need to improve their stadia.

Halifax, Barrow and Widnes are the Championship clubs who can currently apply for a licence although the 2010 Championship Grand Finalists and Northern Rail Cup winners will also be in position to put their cases forward.

The one new arrival should be announced next spring although any ousted from the upper echelon will not be revealed until later in 2011.

so definitely one new club into super league in 2012. and toulouse have to make their grand final this year or win the nr cup to even be eligible for consideration.

crusaders, salford, wakefield and castleford in the firing line to miss out - here's hoping that they can all get their sh*t together and stay in the top flite making 15 teams 2012-2014.
 

RedVee

First Grade
Messages
7,163
It isnt the end of the world.

Toulouse up, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford down.

this would leave an awesome NL1, which would have good strong clubs who can take their time and build a proper case for long term success in the ESL. Castleford, Wakefield, Widnes, Salford, Halifax etc would all be very strong clubs and exactly what the national league should be full of. I dont think they would lose that much support, either, as they would be competing against many of their long time rivals and big name clubs. It gives them a chance to be competive. To be honest, if these clubs got in on the basis three years ago that they were building stadiums, they can have nothing to argue if they are expelled for three years unyil they actually get those stadiums.

To be honest, they never really should have went from 12 to 14 anyway. Particularly since they elected not to include the Toulouse!

In that case maybe the NL1 should be renamed the EL1? As a 2nd Div to the ESL.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
It isnt the end of the world.

Toulouse up, Castleford, Wakefield and Salford down.
Do you have no idea how destructive that would be? Aside from having 2 poor quality sides in a 12 team league, you can just about get away with 1 in 14 and even that is damaging but you'd be telling every heartland team outside of SL to f*ck off and they're not wanted in the sport.

If it's 12 it should be Crusaders, Salford and either Wakefield or Castleford out and Widnes in. If Toulouse make the final next year they maybe have a chance to replace the other one of Cas or Wakey but if they're promoted and noone else is despite them not meeting playing criteria and if Crusaders get kept above 3 far stronger clubs then the whole system loses every last shred if credibility.
 

winnyason

Juniors
Messages
1,576
It is really depending on talks about the tv deal and if they can expand i would see 14 still stay, that said the wrong sides where put up last time salford spun bullsh*t and crusaders because they where welsh.
toulouse and widnes, the way crowds are they may go down to 12.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
Do you have no idea how destructive that would be? Aside from having 2 poor quality sides in a 12 team league, you can just about get away with 1 in 14 and even that is damaging but you'd be telling every heartland team outside of SL to f*ck off and they're not wanted in the sport.

If it's 12 it should be Crusaders, Salford and either Wakefield or Castleford out and Widnes in. If Toulouse make the final next year they maybe have a chance to replace the other one of Cas or Wakey but if they're promoted and noone else is despite them not meeting playing criteria and if Crusaders get kept above 3 far stronger clubs then the whole system loses every last shred if credibility.

I have assumed that Crusaders will make good strides, based on the good things happening for the first game. Probably a bit optimistic, but if it doesnt happen then realistically Crusaders will be gone anyway. And that is not really something the league (unless they plough in money) can or would do anything about.

I never mentioned anything about Toulouse not meeting the criteria. I have assumed they will, and i think it unlikely that they wont meet the criteria. If they dont, then obviously they will be replaced by Widnes (most likely). Either way, the point stands with the NL1 being stronger. Certainly with two less teams, the playing strength of those in ESL will be stronger, and having two big clubs (particularly heartland clubs) will only help strengthen NL1, so it is not the disaster many people think it will be. IN fact, who knows, it may even mean that these big clubs will get rid of all or most of their imports and concentrate on young talent. It could be a godsend if this happens.

Incidentally, if toulouse dont win the league (particularly if they go very close), there is a very real danger that 3 out and 1 in will be changed to 4 out and 2 in, because it would be a major surprise if Toulouse dont make it this time around. I am not sure who that would put in the line of fire. But Celtic, Quins and Huddersfield would be a pretty good guess. As far as teams missing the cut, several teams got in on the proviso that they were upgrading facilities. The teams that have not done this (or made substantial strides) really dont have anything to complain about.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
I never mentioned anything about Toulouse not meeting the criteria. I have assumed they will, and i think it unlikely that they wont meet the criteria. If they dont, then obviously they will be replaced by Widnes (most likely). Either way, the point stands with the NL1 being stronger. Certainly with two less teams, the playing strength of those in ESL will be stronger, and having two big clubs (particularly heartland clubs) will only help strengthen NL1, so it is not the disaster many people think it will be. IN fact, who knows, it may even mean that these big clubs will get rid of all or most of their imports and concentrate on young talent. It could be a godsend if this happens.

Incidentally, if toulouse dont win the league (particularly if they go very close), there is a very real danger that 3 out and 1 in will be changed to 4 out and 2 in, because it would be a major surprise if Toulouse dont make it this time around. I am not sure who that would put in the line of fire. But Celtic, Quins and Huddersfield would be a pretty good guess. As far as teams missing the cut, several teams got in on the proviso that they were upgrading facilities. The teams that have not done this (or made substantial strides) really dont have anything to complain about.
If Toulouse don't make the final this year they don't meet the criteria which is how unlikely it is. I could see them bending to 2 up 2 down with 14 teams but they would only go to 4 down if the 2 going up both met the full criteria including playing wise. They've said the team going up will be announced next spring but the teams getting chopped will only be announced later that year so they seem to be working on an assumption of 1 up.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
If Toulouse don't make the final this year they don't meet the criteria which is how unlikely it is. I could see them bending to 2 up 2 down with 14 teams but they would only go to 4 down if the 2 going up both met the full criteria including playing wise. They've said the team going up will be announced next spring but the teams getting chopped will only be announced later that year so they seem to be working on an assumption of 1 up.

The grand final criteria was only ever for One club to get "promotion". ie if 2 clubs go up, they dont both need to be grand finalists. At least that is how it was originally reported. I would be surprised if it has changed.

Incidentally, Toulouse (or anyone else) have 2 years to reach the grand final dont they?
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
The grand final criteria was only ever for One club to get "promotion". ie if 2 clubs go up, they dont both need to be grand finalists. At least that is how it was originally reported. I would be surprised if it has changed.
No that wasn't reported as that, it was deliberately left vague. It was said there's one guaranteed spot and teams that want to apply for SL have to make a grand final or win the NRC. How that is to be read is anyone's guess (wishful thinking seems to have led people to it believing Toulouse can get promoted as a 2nd side), but it seems that the 1 promoted team is to be announced next spring so they seem to be working on the basis of 1 up. I imagine the only chance Toulouse have (except making the grand final) is if a French TV deal allows them to stay at 14 teams. It's very unlikely they'll cut 4 teams and if they do it will be for 2 criteria meeting teams IMO.

Incidentally, Toulouse (or anyone else) have 2 years to reach the grand final dont they?
No just one, the new team is announced next spring before 2011 grand finalists are announced. Though making the 2011 grand final or winning the NRC will I believe enable you to apply for 2015
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
crap idea. the pom ru will flash cash at any clubs they sent down.

None of the teams likely to go would add anything to the RU premiership or even meet minimum ground criteria(aside from Crusaders who would be banned for being Welsh). Furthermore sides joining RU have to join the county leagues, no exceptions whatsoever even reforming premiership clubs have been put in the 9th tier and been made to go up 1 league at a time.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I really think that things are looked at the wrong way, when criteria and numbers are discussed. Each application needs to be considered individually, and not in connection with the other bids. The way i see it (and this is quick so feel free to correct any errors), regardless of how many should be selected, this is how the sides line up:

Leeds: Financially sound, Crowds Sound, Performance Sound, Ground Sound, must make any superleague.
Wigan: As above. They also seem to have easily done enough on all criteria.
St Helens: As above. They should be in any league
Catalans: There is room to improvement with the ground capacity, which is happening. But they are doing an amazing amount of good, and their spot cannot be argued against.
Hull FC: It seems to be accepted that they have ticked all the boxes and are going well. I think that they need to be there regardless, as a club.
Bradford: I think they have a poor ground? And from what i understand they are struggling and going backwards. But at the moment, they appear to be still at a high enough level for their spot to be realistically unquestioned at this stage.
Warrington: Another club who seems to be going forward and quite well placed. So long as their crowds and finances dont plummet and remain the same, i cant see how they could be left out.
Hull KR: From what i can tell, they look to be going well on all accounts. The only problem (which is the same as Hull's) is location next to Hull. But leaving this aside (which was left aside last time) they seem to be doing everything asked and slowlly improving. They need to be included.

Huddersfield: Let us not forget that they were good enough last time. I dont know much about them, but they definitely have the stadium. And from what i can gather, their crowds, financial situation etc has stayed the same, or gone forward. In these circumstances, they have to be in.

Castleford and Wakefield: I put these together, because they have such similar cases. Both got in on the promise of a stadium. Both have pretty decent crowds and were well supported. Both seem to have failed to deliver their stadium or even concrete plans for their stadium. And both have a problem in that they are right next to each other. Both are good heartland clubs with good solid support but support which is not quite as high as would be liked for a SL club (a new stadium would presumably fix this). The harsh reality is that in not delivering a stadium (assuming it doesnt happen, they have not progressed there bid as expected. I think all other areas they have pretty much stayed the same. In these circumstances, they cannot argue if they are not included in the competition. Although, even if they were dropped, you would think that they would be able to gain admission to the SL at any stage that they do actually build a new stadium. To get in, both clubs rely on being granted concessions.

Salford - I really think that they are in massive trouble. When accepted, it was hoped that they would reach all sorts of levels, and quite simply they have not done this, and you would have to say that they have not progressed the way things were hoped. Crowds in particular seem to be the worrying factor, and it seemed to be that they were accepted on the basis that they would be great (perhaps this was unrealistic). I think they are in a weaker position now than they were previously. And therefore, they cannot really argue too much if they do not make the cut. There are advantages relative to the other clubs but they shouldnt be judged by this, they should be judged by performance in relation to their own goals.

Quins. Another who have not gone forward as was hoped and who hovers in the same position. Realistically, their crowds are nowhere near up to scratch and their finances are really struggling. Still, this is not all that different to where they were last time when they got in. They havent improved like we would all hope and like to see, but they havent really seemed to go backwards either. Arguably, there are some very slight improvements in the key areas from what i recall. They arent necessarilly as strong as clubs as the clubs above, but, they are as strong as they were when awarded a spot last time. I think that they may just have done enought to stay in because of this. It would be harsh to kick them out, because they ahve not gone backwards.
Celtic Crusaders - The biggest wildcard in the whole things. As of today, they are definitely well behind where they should be. Crowds were barely passable, on field performance was bad, finances disastrous etc. Still, the first home game has given a ray of light. They need to turn this around this season and there is now a chance they might (unthinkable a month ago). At the moment, they couldnt be included but they have at least 12 months to improve. If crowds and/or Finances are solid, their case will actually become unarguable, so they are in a unique position. This year is so important for their club.

Widnes - Missed out last time, but definitely improving. Their crowds are good enough to be given a chance and expect them to kick on, but by the same token, they are not good enough on their own to demand inclusion. I think that they have definitely improved massively and come good from their last bid, but they are on the borderline. They should probably get a chance, provided they keep improving in all areas.

Toulouse - They are doing the hard work, and i think that they are up to scratch in all areas. Their only disappointing thing has been the crowds, as i think that they havent shown an ability to market games and get big crowds. But, if their crowds actually improve this year, it would make their case a lot stronger. It is a borderline call at this stage, because they also bring so many potential benefits to the table that other clubs dont. I think, for example, that if they could get a television deal subject to their promotion, it would guarantee their inclusion and make it inarguable. But, if the TV deal is only a hope based on promotion, they remain touch and go. If the French are serious, they should be able to negotiate an unarguable case (much like Gold Coast did when they had a stadium guaranteed subject to inclusion in the nrl comp).
Other clubs clubs (there are too many to name) have had varying levels of success on the field, although they do seem to be advancing off the field. It will be a long battle for these teams, and they need to keep improving and reaching their goals. I really dont think any of them have reached a level to put any serious bids for a place, at this stage. This may change in the future.

So looking at this, of the current clubs, there are 4 clubs who could not argue with exclusion. There is one further club who is touch and go. This means that we must have at least a 10 team competition plus the one extra team that was guaranteed promotion. If (a big if) Celtic improves, then they can get back to where they were, maybe even be ahead of where they were and they would be that 12th team. If not, then that team must be chosen from either the failing guys who are already in, or the potential of other from outside who missed out. Obviously if htye stick with 14 it makes it a much nicer decision, but either way, i dont really think that anyone can argue to much because the sides missing out will have gone backwards and they will be luck to get in (relying on other clubs not doing as well as the should or could have) rather than unlucky to be admitted.

If we have a 12 team competition, then
 

winnyason

Juniors
Messages
1,576
Look i see the reasons why they may do this one is they are going to hold the 2013 rlwc and are paranoid to be in debt like last time and simply put last year was a disaster crowd wise and teams getting new stadia wise.
Here are some points
1. both hull and bradford had poor seasons which does not help sl they are big time 10 thousand plus crowd teams.
2. Wakefield and hudderfield made the play offs but have sh*t house attendances, i watched the dragons v giants semi 6 thousand if your lucky.
3. Why is it ok for the quins club to get 2 to 3 thousand but not crusaders a double standard i think it is london we need them please..........
4.The stadia bullsh*t why are teams building stadia they cannot fill hudderfield, salford will never fill there's, and what about wakefield.
5. Can someone give the crusaders time, look at the london franchise, they have sold out there 1st game at wexham if they keep doing it then they will stay.
6. The crusaders baggers are halifax, fax, leigh fans who all had sh*t attendances when in sl.
7. 14 must stay, and toulouse is a must both for having a big city and having 2 french sl will see them prosper, every time toulouse has had a test match they have had 10 thousand attendance.this was the whole reason for them in championship. Stade france(paris) will not be ready till 2015.
8. Both wakefield and castleford cannot both be in sl, you would have to say the tigers over wildcats.

Here is the 14(they will stay with 14) come 2012.
Big City teams: Leeds, Wigan, St. Helens, Hull AND hull kr,bradford.
Mid range crowds and city: Warrington, Catalans.
Small city teams: Castleford, Hudderfield.
Expansion: Crusaders, London and Toulouse.
New Heartland team: Widnes.
That works no wakey, salford and of course leigh AND THE REST OF WHINGING NL1 CLUBS.
 
Last edited:

RedVee

First Grade
Messages
7,163
Do clubs in expansion areas get extra 'points' when working out who deserves to be in ESL?
enough to be 'safe'?
 

KiwiStorm

Juniors
Messages
154
Do clubs in expansion areas get extra 'points' when working out who deserves to be in ESL?
enough to be 'safe'?

I think that it is one point (out of a possible ten) for being more than 20 miles away from another Super League Club, though I think that was based on the Sky Sports demonstration criteria for the 2009-2011 licenses, so not sure if this will be used for for the 2012-2014 licences.
 

Latest posts

Top