Expansion prospects in the the future NRL vs afl

[Perth Red]

sorry, was tongue in cheek, no offence intended! But you do have the highest pokie spending in the country, which with the argument re low income earning led to the comment.

If there's one thing i've experienced in my travels (and i've been to some pretty rough and ready places in my time!) spending power and decent people do not necessarily go hand in hand!

 

[Bluebags1908]

If you were referring to soccer teams in London initially, then you're a bit off the mark. Not only does London have a much greater population, and not only can away supporters travel freely and easily just about anywhere in the country, but even the number of teams is not the same.

Lets count them: Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham, Charlton, Crystal Palace, QPR, Millwall, Fulham.

Of which, 5 are in the Premier League. And..its quite arguable that there are only 4 teams in London people actually give a **** about.

If you were to start a league from scratch, 4 would be the maximum amount of teams you'd place in a 5million+ city. Sydney has 9, and that shouldn't change. Its how history played out. In this country, sport has developed not on a national level, but a regional level. As such, changing it now would be idiotic. Yet, to anyone looking from the outside, it looks absurd to have 9 teams in a 4 million city.

Sit up and take notice of this people. It's the most sensible comment I have heard in this long-running debate. And anyone who seriously thinks that Penrith should be punted is so far out of touch with reality it's actually quite sad. The Sydney-haters just don't get it and never will.

 

[maccattack]

in todays (21/10/09) Melbourne Herald Sun - there is an article with Bigfatrio talking about the AFL expanding to 20 teams. Tasmania, Western Australia and North Queensland are all mentioned as possibilities.

 

[In-goal]

Sit up and take notice of this people. It's the most sensible comment I have heard in this long-running debate. And anyone who seriously thinks that Penrith should be punted is so far out of touch with reality it's actually quite sad. The Sydney-haters just don't get it and never will.

I understand the emotion of the Penrith article, but I don't see a change in crowds or the like for more than 20 years.

We must remember that in the grand scheme of things Sydney is a unplanned city, hence transport is sh*t, and travel methods are often based in the too hard basket. For this reason I propose that the clubs need to centralise in Sydney to accessible areas.

 

[Goddo]

in todays (21/10/09) Melbourne Herald Sun - there is an article with Bigfatrio talking about the AFL expanding to 20 teams. Tasmania, Western Australia and North Queensland are all mentioned as possibilities.

I can see tassie and WA working for the androtop ballers, but north queensland? They would have to be thinking Cairns.

 

[Slackboy72]

Gee I'm sick of this "my-comp-is-more-national-than-yours" BS.
The fact is league is strictly NSW, ACT, NZ and QLD. AFL is Vic, Tas, SA, WA and ACT. Any support outside of those areas is really quite inconsequential.
All that said league has more support due to the league states having bigger populations. What league should be doing is building representation for it's fans to get them from being interested if partial observers into paying punters.
This means giving QLD the recognition it deserves as the second biggest and most parochial league heartlands we have. We should have 6 teams in QLD and don't listen to broncos supporters saying QLD can't support anymore teams. The sabotage of other teams in brisbane by the broncos was greedy, self-centred, narrow minded and has set QLD and league back twenty years.

 

[Loudstrat]

I understand the emotion of the Penrith article, but I don't see a change in crowds or the like for more than 20 years.

We must remember that in the grand scheme of things Sydney is a unplanned city, hence transport is sh*t, and travel methods are often based in the too hard basket. For this reason I propose that the clubs need to centralise in Sydney to accessible areas.

Geez you talk sh*t. I'm sure the haphazard planning in the times of Francis Greenway affected the growth of suburbs in the 1970s along the western rail corridor. So now lets locate Penrith to where it's "accessible". Where are you thinking? Circular quay?

Tell me, how much have Collingwood's crowds grown in the last 20 years? And who gives a sh*t about Collingwood anyway?

The fact is that there is not an expansion area that could bring to the table what Penrith brings. And don't start with this Perth sh*t either.

Gee I'm sick of this "my-comp-is-more-national-than-yours" BS.
The fact is league is strictly NSW, ACT, NZ and QLD. AFL is Vic, Tas, SA, WA and ACT. Any support outside of those areas is really quite inconsequential.
All that said league has more support due to the league states having bigger populations. What league should be doing is building representation for it's fans to get them from being interested if partial observers into paying punters.
This means giving QLD the recognition it deserves as the second biggest and most parochial league heartlands we have. We should have 6 teams in QLD and don't listen to broncos supporters saying QLD can't support anymore teams. The sabotage of other teams in brisbane by the broncos was greedy, self-centred, narrow minded and has set QLD and league back twenty years.

 

[Perth Red]

Gee I'm sick of this "my-comp-is-more-national-than-yours" BS.
This means giving QLD the recognition it deserves as the second biggest and most parochial league heartlands we have. We should have 6 teams in QLD and don't listen to broncos supporters saying QLD can't support anymore teams. The sabotage of other teams in brisbane by the broncos was greedy, self-centred, narrow minded and has set QLD and league back twenty years.

yeh we need to saturate the market and have financially struggling Q'land clubs with 13,000 crowds so the likes of Manly , Cronulla and Penrith don't feel left behind!

 

[myanonymoususername]

Tell me, how much have Collingwood's crowds grown in the last 20 years? And who gives a sh*t about Collingwood anyway?

Their 2009 average was about 54k, 1989 about 33k. Of course the move from Victoria Park to the MCG would have helped there.

As for who gives a sh*t, about 46k members, and probably at least a million other people.

 

[elbusto]

I can see tassie and WA working for the androtop ballers, but north queensland? They would have to be thinking Cairns.

That is a typical effort by the fat slob in trying to put the mockers on League. A Team in Tassie would not succeed. I live in Tassie and the chances of failure are huge because of population location and size and the lack of money,

A third Team in WA has me in stitches when one is going so badly (the Mariners).

This is another sign the AFL is starting to feel the heat. Putting a third AFL Team in a city of 1 million makes no sense and there is no other centre in WA with a big enough population base to hold a Team.

In fact if you do the math a third Team in Perth with a popuation of 1 million is worse than having 9 NRL Teams in Sydney.

This Press Release is designed to do three things - placate angry Tasmanians, pressure the NRL in the war on QLD, and try to put the mockers on NRL expansion considerations in Perth. IMHO!

 

[Goddo]

yeh we need to saturate the market and have financially struggling Q'land clubs with 13,000 crowds so the likes of Manly , Cronulla and Penrith don't feel left behind!

Actually, I'd be very disapointed if by say 2030 QLD doesn't have 2 more teams. A second Brisbane team in Logan/Ipswich area, and a team on the Sunshine Coast. 5 is probably the perfect number for QLD, and in the very long term a 6th in central QLD.

Problem is, new teams need big government support to get stadiums going and often lack souls which take time to develop. It helps if they can win a premiership (watch the Titans and Cowboys take off big time if they win the comp).

Thats why I tend to think QLD should be reserved to relocate a Sydney team. Brings history with it, as well as large away crowds in Sydney. Also, plenty of QLDers go for sydney clubs. Cronulla or Manly would relocate if a big enough carrot was dangled to them.

Does your saturation argument apply to NSW and the Central Coast, becuase I think a North Sydney/Central Coast Bears team will be fantastic, taking in a huge population area, not to mention the potential corporate support in that region.

You could argue that in terms of corporate dollars and potential fan base Perth is slim pickings and is more of a saturated market than Brisbane is. I am not against a Perth team, just picking holes in your stupid statement.

Try to keep the emotion bottled up Red.

 

[Brutus]

The sabotage of other teams in brisbane by the broncos was greedy, self-centred, narrow minded and has set QLD and league back twenty years.

That's when they lost me.

 

[Goddo]

That is a typical effort by the fat slob in trying to put the mockers on League. A Team in Tassie would not succeed. I live in Tassie and the chances of failure are huge because of population location and size and the lack of money,

A third Team in WA has me in stitches when one is going so badly (the Mariners).

This is another sign the AFL is starting to feel the heat. Putting a third AFL Team in a city of 1 million makes no sense and there is no other centre in WA with a big enough population base to hold a Team.

In fact if you do the math a third Team in Perth with a popuation of 1 million is worse than having 9 NRL Teams in Sydney.

This Press Release is designed to do three things - placate angry Tasmanians, pressure the NRL in the war on QLD, and try to put the mockers on NRL expansion considerations in Perth. IMHO!

I agree totally, I was merely speculating along stadium lines.

Who knows whats going to happen in Perth stadium wise, but the AFL are trying to secure Soccer World cup funding for a big oval and keep league, soccer and union out. But Subiaco isn't a certainty for the World Cup, which I think has the merkins worried.

I think they feel a bit threatened in WA; in terms of corporates, the other three codes have better reach into the population centres of NSW and QLD than the AFL does, and the Force and Reds have shown they do like Rugby codes.

Thats why they are going to NSW and QLD now. They want better corporate reach. If no one follows the new teams it doesn't matter to the AFL.
IMO, if a big rectangular stadium gets built for the world cup, it is on like donkey kong over there.

Tassie is too small and nearly no corporates or decent stadium, but I can see the tassie gov spending a lot of mula getting a cricket ground up to scratch. If it happens, they will be a bit like the Raiders are to the NRL. Fan base, but no big business.

Cairns has a nice cricket oval which I'd say Demetriioeieoeia is eyeing off. By not targeting Townsville, he doesn't have direct competition with League and Basketball.
But people up there travel from Mt Isa to go to the Cowboys games; fan support is not there for the boggers.

I think the best possible outcome for the next 10 years for the NRL is have Manly (or Cronulla) relocated to Sunshine Coast slowly over a 10 year period into a purpose built 32k stadium (funded by QLD gov as a reducable soccer world cup 45k stadium) and brand new Leagues club at Kawana; and
bring back the Perth Reds (into a redeveloped ME Stadium or new stadium built for soccer world cup bid) and the Central Coast-North Sydney Bears (into Gosford and a few games at North Sydney Oval) in 2013.

Unfortunately, the NRL hasn't been thinking long term and strategically (as there is no centralised board there to do this), so this won't happen.

Going of what Gallop has said in the past, they want a team in Logan/Ipswich and Central Coast. Problem there is Logan/Ipswich bid is pathetic so far, and thats where I think the Reds will clinch it, edging out PNG and NZ-2 bids, which will be a good outcome for the game.

 

[elbusto]

I agree totally, I was merely speculating along stadium lines.

Who knows whats going to happen in Perth stadium wise, but the AFL are trying to secure Soccer World cup funding for a big oval and keep league, soccer and union out. But Subiaco isn't a certainty for the World Cup, which I think has the merkins worried.

I think they feel a bit threatened in WA; in terms of corporates, the other three codes have better reach into the population centres of NSW and QLD than the AFL does, and the Force and Reds have shown they do like Rugby codes.

Thats why they are going to NSW and QLD now. They want better corporate reach. If no one follows the new teams it doesn't matter to the AFL.
IMO, if a big rectangular stadium gets built for the world cup, it is on like donkey kong over there.

Tassie is too small and nearly no corporates or decent stadium, but I can see the tassie gov spending a lot of mula getting a cricket ground up to scratch. If it happens, they will be a bit like the Raiders are to the NRL. Fan base, but no big business.

Cairns has a nice cricket oval which I'd say Demetriioeieoeia is eyeing off. By not targeting Townsville, he doesn't have direct competition with League and Basketball.
But people up there travel from Mt Isa to go to the Cowboys games; fan support is not there for the boggers.

I think the best possible outcome for the next 10 years for the NRL is have Manly (or Cronulla) relocated to Sunshine Coast slowly over a 10 year period into a purpose built 32k stadium (funded by QLD gov as a reducable soccer world cup 45k stadium) and brand new Leagues club at Kawana; and
bring back the Perth Reds (into a redeveloped ME Stadium or new stadium built for soccer world cup bid) and the Central Coast-North Sydney Bears (into Gosford and a few games at North Sydney Oval) in 2013.

Unfortunately, the NRL hasn't been thinking long term and strategically (as there is no centralised board there to do this), so this won't happen.

Going of what Gallop has said in the past, they want a team in Logan/Ipswich and Central Coast. Problem there is Logan/Ipswich bid is pathetic so far, and thats where I think the Reds will clinch it, edging out PNG and NZ-2 bids, which will be a good outcome for the game.

I agree.

Re Tassie you are spot on.

Football (as in Soccer) is an unlikely ally for us. The more serious the Government gets about building stadiums for soccer the more Vlad sh*ts his pants because these stadia support three codes which are not his.

As such Perth is the logical next step for the NRL. Forget SA.

And place a convenient Team North of Brisbane and one on the Central Coast (NZ is the next logical step).

The AFL has only one advantage over League - money. But its throwing it around like confetti.

The NRL needs to be watching it closely and respond without being excessive.

I think the future is very bright.

The game is growing internationally and all the signs are that the sleeping giant while not yet awake might be yawning!

 

[Digga Hole]

That is a typical effort by the fat slob in trying to put the mockers on League. A Team in Tassie would not succeed. I live in Tassie and the chances of failure are huge because of population location and size and the lack of money,

A third Team in WA has me in stitches when one is going so badly (the Mariners).

This is another sign the AFL is starting to feel the heat. Putting a third AFL Team in a city of 1 million makes no sense and there is no other centre in WA with a big enough population base to hold a Team.

In fact if you do the math a third Team in Perth with a popuation of 1 million is worse than having 9 NRL Teams in Sydney.

This Press Release is designed to do three things - placate angry Tasmanians, pressure the NRL in the war on QLD, and try to put the mockers on NRL expansion considerations in Perth. IMHO!

One of the most deluded and incorrect post I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Mariners, 1 million pop in Perth... WTF.

Clearly you are highly knowledgeable and someone who should be listened to. :crazy:

 

[elbusto]

One of the most deluded and incorrect post I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

Mariners, 1 million pop in Perth... WTF.

Clearly you are highly knowledgeable and someone who should be listened to. :crazy:

I plead guilty to not knowing the name of an AFL side in Perth! OK its the Dockers.

TBH I am pretty pleased with myself for forgetting who they were.

My point is that crowding three AFL Teams in Perth is not good business or sporting sense is very much a reactive position by Vlad to potential NRL expansion there.

 

[elbusto]

The WC Eagles think so too

West Coast chief executive officer Trevor Nisbett said his club had not discussed the topic at any level.

"It is news to all of us," Nisbett said.


"With the Gold Coast and Western Sydney coming in over the next few years and the possibility of Tasmania in the future, it would appear that a decision on Northern Queensland and WA is a fair way off, and there would need to be a great deal of research to ensure three teams in our state would be sustainable.'
http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/86264/default.aspx

 

[Goddo]

I'd say Rugby Union is also ironically an ally of ours, at least in the AFL states.

Remember, Melbourne Victory and Super Rugby along with Melbourne Storm were the bait for Melbourne Rectangular Stadium. No Victory ment no stadium.

Result? 31,500 stadium that will be used for half of Victory games (rest at Etihad), a super rugby team (that isn't even guarenteed yet) playing a handful of games there, and the odd Union and Soccer international, some of which will be at Etihad since MRS can't be upgraded!

Melbourne Storm will be the primary tenants there hands down.

The same is VERY possible in Perth; Force, Glory, Socceroos paving the way for a Rugby League primary tenant. Meanwhile, Subiaco crumbles into dust. GREAT!

 

[elbusto]

I'd say Rugby Union is also ironically an ally of ours, at least in the AFL states.

Remember, Melbourne Victory and Super Rugby along with Melbourne Storm were the bait for Melbourne Rectangular Stadium. No Victory ment no stadium.

Result? 31,500 stadium that will be used for half of Victory games (rest at Etihad), a super rugby team (that isn't even guarenteed yet) playing a handful of games there, and the odd Union and Soccer international, some of which will be at Etihad since MRS can't be upgraded!

Melbourne Storm will be the primary tenants there hands down.

The same is VERY possible in Perth; Force, Glory, Socceroos paving the way for a Rugby League primary tenant. Meanwhile, Subiaco crumbles into dust. GREAT!

There has been talk of building a stadium that would hold 60000 in Perth (believe it or not).

If that were the case it might be that it is designed to cater for all codes.

That might confuse the issue a bit but its being considered because Subiaco is pretty bad. I went there to watch a Force game three years ago and it was pretty shabby.

 

[Digga Hole]

I plead guilty to not knowing the name of an AFL side in Perth! OK its the Dockers.

TBH I am pretty pleased with myself for forgetting who they were.

My point is that crowding three AFL Teams in Perth is not good business or sporting sense is very much a reactive position by Vlad to potential NRL expansion there.

My point was you were commenting on things you clearly had no idea about.

I don't necesarily agree that adding another team to Perth is the way to go. I would much prefer they build a bigger stadium that allows fans that can't currently get tickets to watch football.

But you are right on one point. This comment about expansion was made to placate Tasmanians. Once he said he may add Tassie, he needed another side to avoid byes.