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Foreign walkout for the ARU....implications for TGG?

Canard

Immortal
Messages
35,829
Garrick Morgan was a similiar dud for the Crushers.

Papworth never made it for the Roosters either, but he was injured so often it would be hard to judge whether that was talent or bad luck.
 

The Observer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
1,742
How did you figure that out?

How do you measure what a successful convert is?

That comment was my opinion, in response to Green Machine's opinion that "not a lot of Union forwards have made it in RL" - how many have tried?

For every Ray Price or Ben Kennedy there is a Garrick Morgan or Sam Harris. In later years anyway.

True, not every RU player that switched to RL would have been a success. There is no guarantee that a convert will be a success.

Morgan would always have been really hard pressed to succeed - he was a lock in Union, a slow, grafting tight forward that would have been less dynamic than RU backrowers, let alone League forwards. Whoever signed him for the Crushers didn't think that through. Harris was also given stick during his stints at the NSW Waratahs and Western Force. He didn't really succeed at either team, or in either code - in part, maybe why Harris went to play RU in Japan. Tony Daly, same deal as Morgan, his body shape and game probably wouldn't have been suited to League.

OTOH, the SA and Aussie forwards I listed above are different: they either play the position that best translates to RL, or have the game/body type to switch. A backrower, particularly the number 8 (plays at the back like an RL lock, built like an RL prop) or a blindside flanker. In particular, Spies and Kankowski are number 8s, play at the back of the scrum, both have played centre or wing at junior level, and both are very fast for forwards (see the video links). Mtawarira and Australia/Waratahs hooker Tatafu Polota Nau were both converted flankers, and they play like it. Mobile, pacy for front-rowers, can get around the field, but both are big hitters in the tackle.

It helps to understand that there are two distinct philosophies in international Union. New Zealand and Australia (and maybe Fiji and Samoa) like to play an expansive, ball-in-hand style at club and test level, run with the ball, and score tries. The All Blacks and Wallabies are ranked 1 and 2 in the world. They try to play a RL style of game. OTOH the Northern Hemisphere (like England, France, Italy, Scotland) Six Nations, South Africa, Argentina etc play the more conservative, kicking dominated game. The ARU and NZRU fought with the NH Unions since 2007 to change the RU laws/interpretations to create a more expansive game, and many NH commentators accused the ARU of trying to turn Union into Rugby League. Teams like the Waratahs were being booed by their fans during games, and given stick by TV commentators and journos, for kicking too much. The ARU finally got a more expansive game in 2010, so they may see a little bit of improvement in fortunes in 2011 with the new Super format.

My point is that the NRL has to remain vigilant with all its competitors, and I'm sure it will be.

Saffy spent the best part of 3 years learning how to play in lower grades and off the bench. He was slighly better for the Tigers in his career there than Sam Harris.

Sure, it took him some time to develop into a first grader. Nevertheless, good on him for achieving last year with the Dragons.
 
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LESStar58

Referee
Messages
25,496
Does anyone remember, and I don't know how true it was, The Tigers chasing ex-Springbok halfback Joost Van Der Westheisen (spelling) in 2000?
 
Messages
42,652
Observer, if I want a Union lesson from a Union fan, I'll ask for it. But be assured, right before it I'll have had a lobotomy.

The point is that there have been bugger all Australian Union to Rugby League converts of late who have played anything near the amount of rep games that a handful of players going the other way have.

We have little to fear from the ARU at the moment and whilst it would be nice to sink the slipper in, we have many more important things to worry about. They are well down the list.
 

Green Machine

First Grade
Messages
5,844
The percentage of those high level products that crossed and succeeded is high.

Bullsh*t it is. There’s been a lot of failures with union forwards. Some of those names you union’s boys put forward are debatable about their union background as I’ve shown. Garrick Morgan was a failure. Tony D’Arcy was a failure. Don Price was a failure. Kurt Lambert was a failure. Rex Mossop debuted in Rugby League 60 years ago in a game that had competitive scrums, 1 yard defence, contestable plays the balls and unlimited tackles. Rugby League favoured union back for a reason and the smart ones stayed away from most union forwards,


None of those RU forwards I mentioned, except for perhaps Bakkies Botha, are regarded for their scrummaging ability. 5 of the 8 are backrowers. All are known for their ability to get around the field, and/or their strong defence, which you can see on the embedded video links. If NRL can afford it, it would do very well to widen the talent and recruiting pool, recruit some overseas stars, and build a new audience.
Recruiting established union players is the biggest waste of money. Recruiting players for pure money is a waste of time. Recruit them young and develop them is the way to go. Get them young and grounded in rugby league skills,

BTW Jarrod Saffy won an NRL Premiership last year with the Dragons, but his whole junior background in South Africa and Australia was in Rugby Union. A background in RL would obviously help, but it isn't a prerequisite to success.

Of course it is. Jarrod Saffy is a terrible example of someone who made it to the top in Rugby League. Saffy finally made it as an interchange player for the Dragons after years of struggle. Saffy made his first grade debut in 2006. Saffy overnight success as a Dragons bench player was a lot of years in the making. Terrible example of a forward that made it to the top in rugby league,
 

rabbitohs

Juniors
Messages
457
Scott Quinnel was a succesful forward convert. Won the championship with Wigan and played in a World Cup semi final with Wales.

Though he could be considered the exception that proves the rule.
 
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