Foreign walkout for the ARU....implications for TGG?

[The Observer]

From an Australian point of view comparing Super 14 crowds and NRL is meaningless.

Most posters on this thread have been comparing the codes, particularly to the detriment of Union. While the attendance comparison isn't exactly a like-for-like comparison, and is affected by a range of factors, no such comparison can with any sport.

They only play 6 games and they are all over before the cold weather hits

Half the S14 teams, including the Brumbies, staged 7 home games. From this season, all teams will play 8 games at home, with the season finishing at the end of July in 2011, and in the second week of August from next season. One could argue that Union's early season home fixtures are affected by being staged in summer, e.g. when it is hot, while the cricket season is still in season etc.

The average of home attendances at Australian S14 games (19,827) was higher than Australian NRL games (16,713), so NRL still has something to aim for. Factoring in NZRU franchise attendances, and the Warriors, the overall NRL average may have been higher than the Trans Tasman S14 average.

The point of my post was to illustrate that any claim that Rugby Union is dead or dying is mistaken.

 

[Knownothing]

Quite a few Rugby forwards have successfully switched to League, such as Ray Price, Scott Gourley, Peter Ryan, Scott Quinnell, Ben Kennedy.

Don't forget Robin Gourley, Ken Kearney, Dick Thornett, and Rex Mossop. Brad Thorn switched back. There is little doubt that players like Tatafu Polata-Nau, David Pocock, Radike Samo, Saia Fainga'a would do okay, as would many New Zealander loose forwards.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/4801-Melbourne-Rebels-2011/page51

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

One quote in the OPs article, and subsequent articles, suggests the potential for exodus could be overstated.

Yeah, no.

Don't talk bollocks.

The potential for exodus isn't overstated at all.

If the NRL gets a large increase on its next TV contract, which is expected, and there are two new teams in the next couple of years, which is expected, then the potential is enormous.

But it's only potential. I doubt we'll be raiding the Union ranks simply because of the paucity of talent there.

League has a great opportunity to do very well in 2011, but the game can't underestimate the other codes, it has to take its competitors seriously.

You're not catching the gist... Union is on the brink in Australia.

Plenty of people are watching Union, and one indicator is the average crowd attendances from Super 14 2010.

No, they aren't.

Union attendances are down and the ratings aren't down, they've plummetted in Australia.

Instead of saying "look at Union attendances in 2010" why not compare them to the previous 4 or 5 seasons?

Would that not be sane?

I can tell you without looking that the Tards, Farce and Brumbies are all down.

Given the way that the states generally attracted higher attendances for intra-country derbies, the Australian S15 could attract more support across the board (from list of results on wikipedia):

Waratahs - 24,205
Reds - 22,827
Force - 17,020
Brumbies - 15,257

The three most popular S14 franchises in 2010 were in South Africa:
Stormers - 42,382
Bulls - 34,291
Sharks - 25,667 (down from 33,878 in 2009, which was the most popular).

NZ's Crusaders (based in Christchurch) average was 21,451, but the Blues (based in Auckland) average was down to 17,733 due to Eden Park's capacity being temporarily reduced from 45K to 18K.

Compared to the NRL's top 6 clubs:
Brisbane - 35,032
Bulldogs - 21,608
Titans - 18,581
Tigers - 18,306
Souths - 17,900
Dragons - 15,100

What part of "Union in Australia" are you struggling with?

You're trying to make a silk purse out of a Sow's ear by posting irrelevant nonsense.

The facts are that Union's attendances are down, significantly, and the ratings have dropped to embarrassing levels in Australia. The money made in 2003 has dried up and they're likely to lose a heap of their top line players to overseas Union.

8 years ago one single game of Union rated 4 million + in this country.

7 years on a whole season of Super 14 added to the ratings for every Union test match in 2010 is about the same as 3 State of Origin matches + the GF combined.

The NRL gets more than a million viewers every Friday night. It takes more than one Bledisloe test to get a million viewers these days.

2003 must feel like a lifetime ago.

You can talk it up all you like, the reality doesn't agree with you though..

 

[Lockyer4President!]

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/4801-Melbourne-Rebels-2011/page51

As expected Pritchard has stayed with league. Just another case of a mun,goe trying to get the best contract out of league by using rugby as a lever.

Is this the same guy? Wow, what a little bitch. Why is he a mod here?

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

I'd love to know why he said that to.

 

[russ13]

Originally Posted by The Observer
Given the way that the states generally attracted higher attendances for intra-country derbies, the Australian S15 could attract more support across the board (from list of results on wikipedia):

Waratahs - 24,205
Reds - 22,827
Force - 17,020
Brumbies - 15,257

The three most popular S14 franchises in 2010 were in South Africa:
Stormers - 42,382
Bulls - 34,291
Sharks - 25,667 (down from 33,878 in 2009, which was the most popular).

NZ's Crusaders (based in Christchurch) average was 21,451, but the Blues (based in Auckland) average was down to 17,733 due to Eden Park's capacity being temporarily reduced from 45K to 18K.

Compared to the NRL's top 6 clubs:
Brisbane - 35,032
Bulldogs - 21,608
Titans - 18,581
Tigers - 18,306
Souths - 17,900
Dragons - 15,100

Union's aggregate non Test crowds in Australia are about half-a- million compared to the NRL's of about 3.5 million.

The aggregate union audience for TV purposes is about 13 million (3.5 million Pay & about 10 million for the Wallabies), Rugby League gets over 130million. It is Australia most watched football code.

So for everyone who watched a union match 10 watched a RL game.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

With French RU, they now have a cap (8 mill or something down from however much you had), so instead of buying everyone in sight, they'll start buying the best only as the FFR has put in place this year that each team has to have a certain percentage of Local players within it rising year to year over the next 5 years or so to strengthen the national side.

This is where the FFR13 and all other RL's around the world can strike back, all these under valued players will need to make a living somewhere, why not RL?

Plenty of them played RL as kids until poached, lets strike while the irons hot.

 

[The Observer]

Is this the same guy? Wow, what a little bitch. Why is he a mod here?

No, that poster on G&GR is not me, so I have no idea why he made those bigoted remarks.

 

[BuffaloRules]

NZ's Crusaders (based in Christchurch) average was 21,451, but the Blues (based in Auckland) average was down to 17,733 due to Eden Park's capacity being temporarily reduced from 45K to 18K.

Out of interest, do you have the crowds for the other NZ teams?

 

[The Observer]

With French RU, they now have a cap (8 mill or something down from however much you had), so instead of buying everyone in sight,

Unfortunately and worringly, that 8 million Euro cap represents an increase on the highest wage bill - no club was actually spending that much on their elite squad: French Top 14 salary cap just sleight of hand

The figure of €8 million is 5% in excess of the highest official wage bill in the Top 14 at the moment. So not a single Top 14 club will be looking at decreasing their current wage bill.

<snipped>

Traditionally, the French government takes the issue of money in sport extremely seriously but the dazzling, complicated nature of the French administration could very well mean that clubs will find other ways to pay their players. Last season, it's rumoured that one big, overseas name was paid less than 40% of his total income as a salary.

they'll start buying the best only as the FFR has put in place this year that each team has to have a certain percentage of Local players within it rising year to year over the next 5 years or so to strengthen the national side.

The English RFL has implemented a similar home-grown system in Super League, but Hull KR have already gained exemptions for Willie Mason and Ben Galea, due to them gaining Tongan and Maltese passports respectively. Mason was then exempt under the Cotonou Agreement (and Kolpak ruling), and Galea as an EU citizen. So French RU clubs could find places for players, and look at elite RL players, given Toulon's success with Sonny Bill and Luke Rooney. Nevertheless, if Catalan Dragons improve their financial position through their stadium redevelopment, I'd love to see them sign a classy back like RU playmaker Freddie Michalak.

 

[Knownothing]

This is where the FFR13 and all other RL's around the world can strike back, all these under valued players will need to make a living somewhere, why not RL?

Plenty of them played RL as kids until poached, lets strike while the irons hot.

This is not a zero-sum game. For every player who moves from RU to RL, one will probably be enticed the other way. The two codes can support a finite pool of professional players - there will be some movement between those two pools, domestically and internationally.

 

[The Observer]

Out of interest, do you have the crowds for the other NZ teams?

Edit: This South African blog SA leads Super 14 Attendance Figureshas a list of all S14 team averages in 2010, as well as the highs and lows.:

Super 14 drew an overall 1,832,867 bums on seats at an average of 20,141 per game, with South Africa leading at just under 26,000 per game (despite the low crowds at Coca-Cola Park in Johannesburg.)

Country records and breakdowns:
1. South Africa: 856,930 (46% capacity) at 25,967 per game
2. Australia: 513,852 (28% capacity) at 19,763 per game.
3. New Zealand: New Zealand total 462,085 (25% capacity) at 14,440 per game.

As expected, the local derby games raised more interest than overseas teams.

If anything, some of the biggest potential for Rugby League is in New Zealand. Since RWC 2007, NZ interest in the Super 14 and NPC , measured by both crowd attendances and TV audiences, has been declining annually since RWC 2007.

With the Commission coming in here, and SPARCs successful restructure of the NZRL, wins in the RLWC and the Four Nations, there is real potential for RL in NZ. I'd like to see an expanded test program for the Kiwis, a Kiwi Roots, a revival of the All Golds/Maori game, and another NRL franchise. That could boost the game in NZ enormously.

 

[Green Machine]

It won't take much to change. There's enough private school kids and big businesses with a keen interest that they'll claw their way back soon. Now is not the time for rugby league to rest on it's laurels and laugh at them. Now is the time to be ruthless and sink the boot in.

I think it will take a lot for the ARU to get that kind money back again. The only reason they had it was because of the 2003 Union World Cup. They’ll need the IRB to award them host rights for it to happen again. Whether they could hold another as successfully again is debatable. Their TV rights aren’t the best, so the great deals they got when they became Openly Professional, won’t happen again. Don’t fall into the old trap of believing old money will out bid new money,

 

[Green Machine]

Quite a few Rugby forwards have successfully switched to League, such as Ray Price, Scott Gourley, Peter Ryan, Scott Quinnell, Ben Kennedy. Others that would be successful include South African backrowers Pierre Spies, the big-hitting Schalk Burger, pacy Ryan Kankowski, prop Tendai Mtawarira, huge lock Bakkies Botha, hooker Bismarck Du Plessis. Wallaby captain/backrower Rocky Elsom played Jersey Flegg for the Bulldogs, Wycliff Palu played Flegg for the Dragons.

Not a lot of Union fowards have made in Rugby League. The scrummaging skills are less important in modern Rugby League. Scott Gourley played Rugby League in Narrabri before playing Union for Eastwood.

 

[Green Machine]

Union's aggregate non Test crowds in Australia are about half-a- million compared to the NRL's of about 3.5 million.

The aggregate union audience for TV purposes is about 13 million (3.5 million Pay & about 10 million for the Wallabies), Rugby League gets over 130million. It is Australia most watched football code.

So for everyone who watched a union match 10 watched a RL game.

You’re right Russ, it’s silly to compare Waratah games with each of the other 9 Sydney NRL clubs. If you are a Union fan is Sydney, its more than likely you would follow the Waratahs and the Wallabies. Though I do know of a few Union fans in Sydney who follow the Brumbies,

 

[Green Machine]

Don't forget Robin Gourley, Ken Kearney, Dick Thornett, and Rex Mossop. Brad Thorn switched back. There is little doubt that players like Tatafu Polata-Nau, David Pocock, Radike Samo, Saia Fainga'a would do okay, as would many New Zealander loose forwards.

Robin Gourley came to Australia on working holiday and played bush Rugby League for about 5 years before being picked up by St George. Brad Thorn played junior Rugby League in Brisbane before being signed by the Broncos. Dick Thornett and brother Ken play juniors for Easts. A rugby league background helps.

 

[The Observer]

Not a lot of Union fowards have made in Rugby League.

The percentage of those high level products that crossed and succeeded is high.

The scrummaging skills are less important in modern Rugby League.

None of those RU forwards I mentioned, except for perhaps Bakkies Botha, are regarded for their scrummaging ability. 5 of the 8 are backrowers. All are known for their ability to get around the field, and/or their strong defence, which you can see on the embedded video links. If NRL can afford it, it would do very well to widen the talent and recruiting pool, recruit some overseas stars, and build a new audience.

BTW Jarrod Saffy won an NRL Premiership last year with the Dragons, but his whole junior background in South Africa and Australia was in Rugby Union. A background in RL would obviously help, but it isn't a prerequisite to success.

 

[Nerd]

Quite a few Rugby forwards have successfully switched to League, such as Ray Price, Scott Gourley, Peter Ryan, Scott Quinnell, Ben Kennedy. Others that would be successful include South African backrowers Pierre Spies, the big-hitting Schalk Burger, pacy Ryan Kankowski, prop Tendai Mtawarira, huge lock Bakkies Botha, hooker Bismarck Du Plessis. Wallaby captain/backrower Rocky Elsom played Jersey Flegg for the Bulldogs, Wycliff Palu played Flegg for the Dragons.

Hope some of those forwards go better than Garrick Morgan did for the QLD Crushers!

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

The percentage of those high level products that crossed and succeeded is high.

How did you figure that out?

How do you measure what a successful convert is?

For every Ray Price or Ben Kennedy there is a Garrick Morgan or Sam Harris. In later years anyway.

BTW Jarrod Saffy won an NRL Premiership last year with the Dragons, but his whole junior background in South Africa and Australia was in Rugby Union. A background in RL would obviously help, but it isn't a prerequisite to success.

Saffy spent the best part of 3 years learning how to play in lower grades and off the bench. He was slighly better for the Tigers in his career there than Sam Harris.