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Foxsports talks expansion

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
I imagine they would be more inclined to follow the Tigers team in Perth. (And dont try to pretend the WTigers is THAT different to the Balmain brand)

Like I was saying, the kids in Sydney would be about as willing to follow the Perth Tigers as they would the South Hobart Rabbitohs.

The Magpies > Adeladie is more about providing that location with SOME kind of brand depth; i really dont want to see another Titans-style gimmick.

There's nothing stopping a Magpies brand from being developed in another market but gutting the Wests Tigers in order to achieve it is minimal benefit/high cost.

Not "happy", but as happy as can be expected under the circumstances

I believe the technical term for that is "unhappy"
 
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Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Like I was saying, the kids in Sydney would be about as willing to follow the Perth Tigers as they would the South Hobart Rabbitohs.



There's nothing stopping a Magpies brand from being developed in another market but gutting the Wests Tigers in order to achieve it is minimal benefit/high cost.



I believe the technical term for that is "unhappy"

Am i right to take it that you think 9 teams is sustainable in Sydney??

Or do you prefer a team simply be killed of?
 

strong_latte

Juniors
Messages
1,665
It's an ambitious idea, but by the time there's the critical mass to achieve that I'd guess the TV rights would be worth $10 billion... in other words probably 15-20 years away at least.

In my view the expansion priorities in descending order are:

1. Perth - West Coast Pirates (critical market that has shown potential; we need presence there)
2. Brisbane - Bombers (value in terms of ratings, derbies etc can't be denied)
3. NZ 2 (Christchurch)
4. NZ 3 (wellington)

In my view the expansion into NZ is probably still a bit too soon, but it's critical for 2 reasons that are both tied up with increasing the value of the game:

1. To further capitalise on their strong domestic development and give NZ more complete presence. NZ already supplies more players to the NRL than Queensland; but the lack of local pathways means Union will always get first pick. This would help arrest that and also help develop some great local derbies

2.The international game. Giving NZ a robust 3 team presence will ensure more NZ talent flows to League, which will in tern strengthen the Kiwis and make the rivalry with the Kangaroos increasingly meaningful.

Heck, the Kiwis have won just as many trophies in the past 10 years as the Kangaroos, so they are competitive, but if they started to truly dominate, then an international series against them could start to generate Origin like hype and interest. Given Origin's value to the TV deal, that alone should be incentive enough.

I see this as probably a 10 year proposition, but one that definitely needs to happen.

NZ probably isn't quite ready for that yet, but as a longer term plan I think from a strategic perspective it's a brilliant idea. Having a presence in NZ's three biggest cities and rugby strong holds would definitely give the TV contract over there much greater interest and help build a genuinely formidable NZ-Aus rivalry in League.

Frankly the Union rivalry is getting pretty boring because of how predictable it's been for so long, and League is already outrating them in Aus for our games.

The key thing we'd need is a couple big financial backers. I see Christchurch have that in the form of the Lion group getting involved down there, but there needs to be more.

I'd also argue that Christchurch should happen before Wellington (unless they happen simultaneously) due to the fact that the reconstruction work in Christchurch is generating quite a bit of economic activity and brining workers from Aus as well, and Rugby League Park is a nice and intimate setting for a new NRL side that would look great with 15k, whilst at the cake tin it's a graveyard with that many and the ground just is awful for footy.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
Am i right to take it that you think 9 teams is sustainable in Sydney??

Or do you prefer a team simply be killed of?

Well you might not read all of this but you took the time to ask so I've taken the time to answer.

In this modern era and competitive business environment I think it's unwise to kill teams off in general.

When you looking at marketing surveys, all the NRL clubs have fanbases between 150,000 to 1,000,000+ which is comparable with the AFL. The key difference is that they're better at converting that into bums on seats.

So even at the lower end of support when you look at teams like Sharks, Raiders, Panthers & Sea Eagles, that's still a significant number of supporters that you risk alienating from the game. And sure you might just say, they'll convert to new teams etc and some times that does happen but anyone with any expertise with marketing will tell you that's hard with any product, not just sport. History has shown, not just in NRL but also other sports, that it's extremely hard to win back alienated customers.

For example you hear all the time about how soccer has a massive youth participation rate and how that will somehow translate into soccer's domination of the sporting landscape. The fact is it's been that way for ages. The reason why AFL & NRL -- two codes neither of which have a national domination -- still dominate their respective markets is because older supporters pass down their support to the next generation. You take away the older generations' chief reason for support (club affiliation), you kill the next wave coming through.

That's why I disagree with axing clubs. Not based on passion or affiliation for the clubs involved. It's based on sound marketing principles.

So do I think 9 teams are sustainable in Sydney? Well I've written about that previously. I think it's potentially possible but will likely some strategic decisions. My biggest concern is that we may see the gap widen between the Haves and Have Nots.

Other things to reflect upon are Sydney's geography, stadium locations & funding, socio-demographic changes and competing sport codes.

Soccer has support in Western Sydney and if they can get over the hooliganism element (they may not) the Wanderers could be one of the major Australian sporting brands. GWS on the other are hoping to carve a niche as they know that growth there may determine if the AFL is the number sports league in the country.

Western Sydney is a massive area, it's not some contiguous block. The NRL is the only major sporting league that recognizes these enclaves. This also applies to the rest of Sydney. The key principle needs to be to keep this enclave support whilst ensuring that all these NRL clubs expand their appeal Sydney wide.

The best example of this is the South Sydney Rabbitohs. For a team that was originally surrounded in the CBD/Inner City by other teams, their fanbase has spread west pretty much evenly across the city. Not only that but they're one of the country's major recognisable sporting brands even in non-heartland states. The fact that they were cut from the competition despite all this potential should indicate to you why it can be unwise to alienate fan bases for the purposes of culling itself. A team that may be struggling in one particular moment can still have massive latent support.

As for other teams, the Eels cover probably the biggest geographical area which is growing rapidly. I've heard plenty of suggestions about merging them with the Panthers. For mine it's about as logical as merging them with the Sharks given both have about the same geographical distance.

If people were to have a long term view they would know that the primary growth in Sydney will be North & West of the M7 -- in the Panthers & Eels backyards. Parramatta & Homebush are 20-30km away from Penrith. Ideally the Panthers & Eels would play out of a shared stadium but it?s unlikely to happen but if the Panthers want to tap into that population they?d look at shifting further to Rooty Hill/Blacktown way. That would put the stadium on the train line near the M4 & M7, essentially the epicentre of all that new growth. The Eels stadium redevelopment will put them in good stead and they?re likely to use it in conjunction with larger games at Homebush. Again all this is dependent on what the new stadium policy will look like. If Penrith is locked out of funding it?s going to hurt them, hence why for the overall good of the game joint funding is probably the better option.

The Bulldogs have got that kind of next biggest swathe with that triangle in the middle of the city plus they?ve been successful at growing their support outside of it. Homebush & return to Belmore is a good balance. If Homebush?s long term future declines, a joint facility with the Tigers would be a wise idea. That may have even come to fruition with the failed Oasis project.

The Roosters have got some spread but they?ve still got the problems of being essentially a suburban team. They don?t really seem to be doing much about it either. They?re a successful club with a long history that will likely continue playing out of a large central Sydney stadium with strong private financial backers but they need to do something to ensure long term support that?s on par with the bigger clubs. If the post-Super League mergers had been strategic then they would have been amalgamated with another city club. Just how every other team is going West, that?s what the Roosters need to do ? but Inner West. Yes that?s Tigers territory but things change and it?s vital for the Roosters long term support.

The St George-Illawarra merger has its pros and cons but there would be more damage by trying to undo the merger. While the St George district is a small enclave their supports have spread West. Ideally I see them treating Kogarah as a return-to-Belmore type event. Due to the geographically spread fanbase they are a team that could be sustained on a reciprocal membership basis. If they were to play the majority of their games in Wollongong it would help improve interest there. In Sydney fans could go to 1 or 2 special events at Kogarah and then get access to 6-8 big matches at Homebush & SFS.

The other merged club the Tigers have a fanbase that?s spread from Leichardt to Campbelltown and beyond. Again unmerging them would do more damage. I think the key to their future is South-West Sydney. Like the case with Penrith, there?s going to be massive growth there and Liverpool is on the train line near the M7 & M5 at the axis of old and new. The inner west will grow but ultimately it?s the South-West that they can really tap into. A shared Stadium will the Bulldogs should be looked at but they may also be able to shift some of that Leichardt support to the new central stadium. Over time though the Tigers support base will shift West, regardless of whether or not they encourage it. They could also look at a rebrand to Western Sydney Tigers in order to help cast their net wider.

The Bears ? I believe the NRL need to answer 2 questions. Will there be a Central Coast team? Will it be the Bears? The Central Coast is already bigger than what Newcastle was when the Knights started. Imagine if the Knights had never gotten that opportunity. That said Perth & South-West Brisbane are more pressing, you could even argue a second New Zealand (Wellington-Christchurch) side too. If the NRL has a plan to expand to 20 teams I believe the CC Bears should be considered. But if that?s not on the cards and there will be no Central Coast team in the next 20 years, then we need a solid plan for the region. Leaving it to the whim of individual clubs to decide the strategy isn?t working.

I can see the value of resurrecting the Bears brand elsewhere in a non Central Coast market. It wouldn?t destroy an existing franchise in the process but it will likely reignite support in North Sydney where the NRL is struggling plus elsewhere as their supporter base has spread out. For mine establishing the Bears brand in Perth, Brisbane or NZ should be considered. I?ve heard people say that Queenslanders wouldn?t support a former Sydney club. I hate to break it to them but the target market for the new Brisbane clubs ? i.e. the majority of people in Brisbane who don?t support the Broncos, either support the other Queensland teams (minority), Sydney clubs (majority) or are apathetic as they support other sports. There?s also going to be more Bears supporters in Brisbane than any other location. Ideally if a Central Coast side isn?t going to happen, then I?d like to see a Queensland Bears outfit playing out of Lang Park targeting South-West Brisbane with corporate support that?s also connected with a grassroots network like the Brothers. This idea that these new bids can only comprise one element is ridiculous.

People thinking resurrecting the Bears will hurt the Sea Eagles. Actually resurrecting support for rugby league in general is good for the game as a whole. Those people who are reinvigorated are the least likely to have converted to the Sea Eagles brand anyway. What you would have though is more people in North Sydney supporting rugby league in general and that would result in more support for the Sea Eagles overall. Instead of being ignored, people would pick a side. For mine the Manly club?s future is to cast their net wide and become the North Sydney Sea Eagles. Not a merger, just not a club that?s confined to the Northern Beaches. They need to push their support all the way to the Hills District and Harbour. That might mean dumping Brookvale for a stadium that?s centralised to their intended market. I?ve heard people suggest a permanent move to the Central Coast. I think abandoning North Sydney altogether is a mistake. However if there is no Central Coast team in the next 20 years the better strategy would be to have the Sea Eagles play 3-4 matches there as the home team. Ideally what the NRL should aim for is for the majority of sports fans between the Harbour & Wyong to be either Sea Eagles or Bears fans ? that helps cut out other sports. With just 1 option and no push from the Sea Eagles, the current trend will simply continue.

The Sharks have now got money in place but in many way they?re in a similar position to the Roosters. The Shire will grow but not as much as elsewhere and I think like the Roosters they risk being left behind. I can see both clubs being able to grow and expand and both standing on their own.

And I can also see a mutual benefit of creating a super club ? probably the wealthiest in the league ? and combining the majority of the both fan bases into a new Eastern Sydney identity. In that sense they wouldn?t have to worry about their geographical isolation as much and the new identity would be bigger and likely to spread further. I know the issues with mergers and I'm only suggesting this as a worst case option. Unlike relocation however, fans of both clubs will still be able to attend home matches in their local suburbs, not have to travel to Western Sydney ? or worse interstate ? to attend away matches. You would alienate fewer people than you would be completely relocating or axing a club altogether.

That said time will tell how well all Sydney clubs do and whether such measures are even necessary.

Not everyone?s going to like what I?ve written here but frankly I don?t care. I am not a fan of any of these clubs. My opinions are unbiased, I have the utmost respect for the game and its history. These comments are primarily driven from a marketing perspective.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
Interesting read docbrown. Your points about the Sydney market make a lot of sense to me and I'm more and more leaning toward just keeping the Sydney teams given the growth of the market.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the biggest problem we face is infrastructure. If Sydney could have a mix of 4 to 5 medium to big stadiums in all the central areas and preferably on rail lines then attendances would definitely improve.

That said, I also think the teams need better fan engagement strategies. Events like the ANZAC day matches show people will go if given enough of an "event" to do so, so perhaps a bit more creativity in that regard is in order.

NZ probably isn't quite ready for that yet, but as a longer term plan I think from a strategic perspective it's a brilliant idea.

Well I did say 10 years, so yes not yet, but we've already got feeder teams from Christchurch and Wellington, so it's not as far off as you think.

I'd also argue that Christchurch should happen before Wellington (unless they happen simultaneously) due to the fact that the reconstruction work in Christchurch is generating quite a bit of economic activity and brining workers from Aus as well, and Rugby League Park is a nice and intimate setting for a new NRL side that would look great with 15k, whilst at the cake tin it's a graveyard with that many and the ground just is awful for footy.

Fair points. I'm a fan of Christchurch to be honest, and in line with Doc's argument perhaps they could be a potential location for the Bears?

Would be a perfect fit in a lot of ways - the local colours are already red and black and their feeder side the "Bulls" isn't much of a stretch to go to "Bears"
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,866
Good points doc but overall a bit idealistic imo. The evidence in front of us at the moment suggests that it is highly unlikely the level of club saturation in nsw (I've included Newcastle as any decision on Gosford may help or hinder them) is sustainable independent of the NRL digging deep into its resources.

The low crowds, lack of corporate support, stadium situation financial difficulties/revenue base and impact on expansion and growth would suggest something has to give at some point.

OR the NRL strategically decides this is as good as it gets for RL in Australia and NZ and pumps significant resources into clubs to bring the strugglers up to keep pace with the big boys and gives up worrying about attendances and memberships.

You mentioned Souths as a example of potential unrealised, but let's be honest the lotto numbers came up for them to turn them around from a basket case to a powerhouse on and off the field. The chances of finding a Hollywood A lister to give you profile with a multi million mate to give you capital investment is pretty slim!

The NRL has had a massive cash windfall yet 3 years on nothing much has changed, I see no evidence throwing more money at unsustainable clubs is going to make much difference. What's that saying about doing the same thing the same way?
 

morley101

Juniors
Messages
1,025
Good discussion Doc... The Roosters

The Roosters are pouring lots of resources into the central coast. They have bought a Leagues Club (Woy Woy)and are in a partnership with Wyong Leagues in both senior (NSW Cup)and juniors (SGB cup and HM CUP). The local juniors now have direct pathway to NRL. I can see the Roosters to play 2 -3 games a year in Gosford in the near future.
Remembering its only about a 90 min train trip from Gosford to Central station.
 

parrawentyfan

Juniors
Messages
745
As a really long term prospect (maybe 30-50 years). We should be looking at NZ having enough teams (3-4) to form the basis for NZ having its own league of around 8 teams.

Ie get 3 or 4 NRL teams assuming a conference type model by then, and then de-link it from the NRL at some point and build on the nucleus of what is already there. NRL could retain some type of oversight if better from a resource or admin perspective.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,866
As a really long term prospect (maybe 30-50 years). We should be looking at NZ having enough teams (3-4) to form the basis for NZ having its own league of around 8 teams.

Ie get 3 or 4 NRL teams assuming a conference type model by then, and then de-link it from the NRL at some point and build on the nucleus of what is already there. NRL could retain some type of oversight if better from a resource or admin perspective.

There will never be enough money in the NZ game to do this. Even Union can't achieve it and they are a far more popular code there.

Best hope is 3 NZ teams in a broader Paciifica NRL comp that has two or three conferences. Though given the pace of expansion so far it's not going to happen in my lifetime.
 

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