Game of Thrones II

Discussion in 'The Music & Movies Forum' started by LESStar58, May 9, 2016.

  1. Apey

    Apey Moderator Staff Member

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    Tyrion is probably the biggest character after Jon and Dany and you think he should die a season out from the end game? For what purpose, for the shock value? The rift between Cersei and Jaime was created without his death, and in the books the rift already existed a long time ago. He's not going to die like that in the books (I don't think he'll die at all) and it has been stated that while the journey may be different, the major characters are going to have pretty much the same ending as in the books. If you think he's past his usefulness I don't think we watch the same show.

    Yeah, I think a lot of these guys have plot armour right now. If they didn't get put into these situations the episodes would be boring, but if they actually died then they can't serve the purpose they are supposed to next season imo. Tough choice. Yes it is unrealistic each of them survive in certain situations they've been in. I kind of agree with Jorah except it would seem a bit rushed given he's only just made it past his Greyscale. I think he will die like that, just next season. The other candidate would have been Tormund. Beric obviously wasn't going to die given its been drummed into us over and over again that he has a purpose.

    I think this one was epic drama for the sake of epic drama without being realistic. The problem is making the season exciting while making sure characters who have a big role to play in the future actually make it there. I have no idea what Bronn's endgame is, living in a big castle? Who knows. Maybe he should have died.

    Yeah that was never going to happen unless it was going to happen in the books. They are not writing the entire ending themselves. They've been given endings for important characters and they're filling in the blanks. It's also not season 1 - 4 any more, this the penultimate season, they are tying up loose ends like Littlefinger instead of creating more for the final 6 episodes.

    I like the theory Cersei will die in childbirth as an aside, some nice irony re: both her brothers. People are reaching saying nobody of importance died this season or that they were all predictable. Also there is so much theorising about this show now that any and every scenario can be deemed predictable by someone. I don't really see a problem with predictability re: the 'Great War' killing off a bunch of characters. I mean no shit, that was always going to happen. Maybe the unpredictable thing now would be "everyone lives happily ever after".
     
  2. Zachary Smith

    Zachary Smith Juniors

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    More upset when the Sand Snakes died, they were hot.
     
  3. Apey

    Apey Moderator Staff Member

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    Said this earlier but: I think the problem (to me) is that unlike other seasons, season 7 as a standalone isn't that great as it's pretty much entirely set-up for season 8. At times it felt like "we have to get this out of the way so we can do <this> next season". I think it was because Season 6 ended two of the major subplots. That being said next season should be all about the main plot, so killing off more characters wouldn't have caused the same issues.

    Yeah I honestly thought it was a shit scene so maybe we have to agree to disagree. That may be because I had read the leaks so there was no surprise, lol. That probably also reinforces that what draws us to the show is very different though because knowing Littlefinger was going to bite the dust didn't bother me.

    I get this but I think predictability is naturally going to increase significantly the closer it gets to the end because the number of (realistic, eg. twists that aren't going to give birth to a whole new plot that then has to be wrapped up in 6 episodes) alternatives is lower.

    Don't get me wrong I'm still desperately clinging onto my favourite theory that Dany is going to be the bad guy (maybe in the books plz) as much as the walkers are but really I think that's highly unlikely now and that it's predictably going to play out as the living v dead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  4. Pete Cash

    Pete Cash Immortal

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    I will only be satisfied if literally everyone dies. That is why I am team nightking (who also dies )
     
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  5. Walt Flanigan

    Walt Flanigan Coach

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    Two of them were. Obara was pretty rough.
     
  6. simmo1

    simmo1 Bench

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    Movies/shows always become more predictable as they approach the end. There just isn't enough time left in the series to be starting new plots like Stark sisters turning on each other, or introducing new characters etc.
     
  7. perverse

    perverse Referee

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    Totally disagree particularly with this to be honest. Some of the best twists in film and tv have come towards or at the end of their story arcs. For a show built on twists and doing the unexpected, the last season has been nothing short of a let down for me. For the record, the Littlefinger set up and scene wouldn't even rank in the top 20 or more scenes across the series, it was just the best non-action moment from this season for mine, because I didn't see it coming (largely because the writers clumsily showed absolutely nothing on screen to suggest that it might). It more speaks to how little I thought of this season when compared with the rest of the show. I think the fact that you read the leaks and thus had no surprise at one of the few surprising moments kinda undermines your opinion on it a little. You certainly didn't experience it as intended.
    Completely and utterly disagree. The Sixth Sense, The Usual Suspects, Fight Club, Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Memento (and this story is told BACKWARDS), Lost... and that's just amongst my favourites.

    At the end of the day, I'm still enjoying the show, it's just that it's now been brought down to the level of other "regular" shows in my opinion, whereas it was in a class of its own earlier in the series. I think my biggest irk in all of it is that there would be plenty of time to write this shit better if they had just made 2 more traditional length seasons. I think it's been made very clear that the less GRRM is in the writing, the worse the show generally seems to be. It feels like inferior writers piecing shit together from a few post-its GRRM gave them with shit scribbled on.
     
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  8. Apey

    Apey Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think a shock twist is good just because it's a surprise, especially when the writers go out of their way to make it a surprise at the expense of it making sense in the universe. The way they delivered it was shit imo. I still like my idea of Arya being off to the side and the camera on her while Sansa is talking about the crimes of a non-specific person, i.e a traitor among us, who we think is Arya, rather than ramming the 'fake' down our throats. The play-acting by Arya just bothered me if you can't already tell, lol.

    Maybe they did it like that precisely because like you they felt they didn't have enough surprises this season though, so they overdid it on the one they had... that would actually make sense to me. Anyway there have been plenty of times when I knew something was coming in this show and I thought the reveal was still f**king awesome... this was just not one of those times.

    Well, yeah. That's basically what it is, you won't find me disagreeing there. Hard to adapt something non-existent. They can try all they like but they can never understand the characters arcs like Georgey boy does. I'm not sure how much a role GRRM has played this season but he probably needed to be more involved to sustain the standard. I will laugh my ass off though if GRRM ends up doing some of the heavily criticised plot points in the same way though.
     
  9. Tommy Smith

    Tommy Smith Coach

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    I do agree that the quality of the writing has dropped off this season.

    Some of the major plot points (Arya & Sansa's arc with Littlefinger) and also the major moments (the contrived timings involved in the voyage beyond the Wall) have felt rather clunky.

    However I still think it's been a great season on the strength of the characters and also the pay offs of all the fantastic reunions and meetings of major players. Even the little ones like Brienne and the Hound which I loved.

    They also nailed the major battle scene as they always do.

    So essentially whilst the writing standard has dropped off somewhat this season, it's still been great on the strength of the story already developed - of all the hard work that's been done that has led us as viewers to be on the edge of our seats with almost every scene..

    We're in the pay off right now so it'd take something spectacularly awful to f**k it up entirely.
     
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  10. azzah72

    azzah72 Bench

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    Agreed except for one character, when the final character dies and then you hear some whistling and in skips Bronn, he sits on the throne, puts on the bloodied crown and just says " I finally got my castle".

    I would be a fan.
     
  11. Apey

    Apey Moderator Staff Member

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    Does anyone think there is still a major twist to come with the main plot? One bigger than any one character dying?

    While the show is not the books, it seems weird to me that Georgey boy is talks about how he's not a fan of your typical good vs bad, and the trope that good guys being white shiney beautiful people with the bad people being ugly and monstrous. What if the premier bad guy was a hottie (ay ay Daenerys). We got this vibe a lot throughout the series with almost every human being shades of grey; some lighter or darker than others. It would be a shame if it all went out the window and the showcase war of living vs the dead ends up being that typical good vs bad. Will there be more to the Other's purpose? I guess the Bran = NK theory, as much as I disagree with it, could fit the role of such a twist.
     
  12. Cherry_poppins

    Cherry_poppins Bench

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    Jon/Aegon kills the night king

    There must always be a night king

    Jamie takes over from outgoing king bran
     
  13. hineyrulz

    hineyrulz Post Whore

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    Sansa will win the game of Thrones IMO, don't know why just it's what I think.
     
  14. Parra Pride

    Parra Pride Coach

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    I'd bend the knee to Sansa tbh.
     
  15. Aragorn

    Aragorn First Grade

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    Doubtful

    I reckon they all die leaving no one ruler but regional kings and queens - Sansa in the north, Yarra the islands, Tyrion Kings Landing.....

    no one ruler and the game starts all over again...
     
  16. Game_Breaker

    Game_Breaker First Grade

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    While Jon was f**king Dany, they had Brans creepy voiceover saying he was the heir to the iron throne. Would they go out of their way to mention this just for it to not happen? His name is Aegon for a reason I believe

    Now Jon doesn't want the throne, and he already bent the knee to Dany. So the only way I see Jon sitting on the iron throne is if Dany dies
     
  17. saint.nick

    saint.nick Coach

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    I used to dismiss the idea, but now I'm starting to believe that he will in fact end up on the throne. It continues the theme of him being thrusted into leadership roles that he doesn't want. He didn't want to be Lord Commander, he didn't want to be King in the North, and he doesn't want to be the King either but he's gonna get the throne anyway.
     
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  18. Parra Pride

    Parra Pride Coach

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    Or they marry and both rule.
     
  19. gUt

    gUt Coach

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    This is good:

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/2-major-laws-fiction-that-are-screwing-game-thrones/

    If You Thought Game Of Thrones Felt Off, You're Not Wrong

    Game Of Thrones just finished its seventh season and lots of people didn't like it and it's still basically the best thing on the television, so .... Huh. I guess, pick up the pace lesser television shows? Maybe make time for some frigging dragons or at least a eunuch, NCIS.

    If you follow The Internet, you'll know that people had a few issues with this most recent season of GOT, most notably the sudden introduction of hyperspace travel to what had previously been a gritty, realistic world. Characters would lunge back and forth across the continent within the span of an episode or two, and while the producers were careful to avoid discussing the length of time that passed between scenes, meaning it was all maybe technically possible, it didn't feel great. In fact, the pacing of the entire season felt like it had accelerated way too much.

    I suspect this was caused by the increasing gap in progress between the show and the books. While the first five seasons were based on the books and the sixth was based on what were probably fairly detailed notes from George R.R. Martin on the book currently in progress, everything past that (i.e. this season) seems to have been based on a fairly loose outline Martin has for the overarching plot of the show. And instead of filling that in with more politics or delightful weddings or f**king Dorne, the producers have evidently just shot from high point to high point. An increase in the pacing was probably necessary and welcome (f**k Dorne), but this past season it felt like they took things a little too far. We live in a world where The Hobbitwas turned into a nine-hour movie. They probably had some time to show a few more conversations on boats.

    But there's a deeper problem at work here, something which is causing a disquieting sensation that the show seems broken now. No, not just the latest incest plot, that's fine, f**k your aunts all you want, Cracked's position on that has always been clear. No, what's really happening is we are seeing a collision between two immutable laws of fiction which have lived side by side within the show for years. Recent events have forced these two laws into conflict with each other, and it's the fallout from this collision which is making everything feel so weird now.

    The laws are:

    Realistic Stories Have To Kill Off Major Characters

    What was the first major plot point of Game Of Thrones that made you realize something special was going on? The prostitutes? It was the prostitutes for you? Ok, sure. You do you.

    Because for most other people it was the death of Ned Stark. For the first several episodes of Game Of Thrones, Ned Stark was clearly established as the primary protagonist. He was brave and honorable and had nice kids and a cool wife and he did what he thought was right. And about midway through the season, when he was taken prisoner by the villainous Lannisters, everyone familiar with fiction began quietly, even subconsciously, wondering how Ned Stark was going to get out of this one.

    And then he got his head chopped off.

    Holy shit! Clearly this was a different type of show entirely, and Martin would return to this blood-filled well again and again, brutally killing off major characters at weddings across the continent.

    The reason this worked was that, as surprising as it was, it was still realistic and believable. Political machinations and assassinations and open warfare result in people dying, so we can't be too surprised when it happens to major players. Large portions of Game Of Thrones are inspired by real history, which -- spoiler -- has a fatality rate of around 100 percent. Look at the War Of The Roses (which several elements of Game Of Thrones are based on.) That little conflict saw dozens of Edwards and Richards die each year, major players each one. A plausible depiction of that kind of conflict has to have major characters die. It'd look ridiculous without it.

    And now one question. Answer it as quickly as you can. On Game Of Thrones, who was the last major protagonist to die?

    The uh ... hmmm. Is it Hodor? It's Hodor, isn't it? Is that major enough? He was certainly a bigcharacter. Not really major though, and it was quite a while ago.

    Let's talk about the second immutable rule of fiction at work here.

    Traditional Stories Can't Kill Off Major Characters

    The whole point of a story is to read about interesting people doing interesting things. It's more satisfying if we know something about the people doing amazing things -- we don't want to hear that some chump elf dropped the One Ring in Mt. Doom, because his army fought its way there and he was just the closest one to the precipice. We want to read about Sam and Frodo doing it, because we'd followed those characters and their discussions about potatoes for a long time. If we'd followed the chump elf for a thousand pages, that might be different. He'd be our hero, and we'd know a lot more about him, and we'd delight in seeing how he had finally become the chump he was always destined to become.

    One big side-effect of this law is that if we follow a character for hundreds of pages, they will fairly predictably go on to do interesting things. It's essentially a corollary to Chekhov's Gun; if a character is introduced in the first act, they'll have to do something by the third act. Readers pick up on this too; we know when characters are important and can often even predict what they'll do long before they do it. The coward will become brave, the hero and romantic interest will kiss, the guy with a chainsaw for an arm will be killed with his own chainsaw. And when that hasn't happened yet, no matter what dire situations our heroes find themselves in, we don't feel like they're in real peril. It's called plot armor, and it's the reason people found it so surprising when Ned Stark died. He was our hero! He had to do ... something. Right?

    This is probably why we haven't had any major characters on the show die in a while now. They all have a role to play in the final season of the show.

    Ok, so what? What's the problem? You want Bran to die or something? Well, yes, but there's more.

    Game Of Thrones Combines Both These Type Of Stories

    In Game Of Thrones, everything south of the wall can be airily summed up as "humans f**king each other over." It's a realistic political story, which generally follows the first law discussed above. Using examples from history, Martin was able to create beloved characters and hated villains and kill them off more or less whenever he wanted, because that's what happens in a "humans f**king each other over" story.

    North of the wall, we have a very different kind of story, something a lot closer to a traditional fantasy epic, in this case the "humans fighting ice-zombies" trope that lies at the core of 90 percent of the stories you've ever been told. It's no coincidence that this story never blended in too much with the story south of the wall. Characters from each side didn't cross back and forth or interact much with each other at all. Every now and then someone might send a raven to the other story, and the other story would read it and laugh and throw the raven in the garbage. (Is that how the ravens worked? I don't think we've ever seen the details.) And this story north of the wall is following those rules of fiction which apply to traditional stories. Characters can die, but not the main ones; we need those around to deliver the ultimate blow at the end of the story to make that ultimate blow actually feel meaningful.

    Now the two stories are merging, and suddenly it's clear that all the vulnerable people in the gritty political back-stabaganza we had come to love and fear for, are actually heroes in an epic fantasy, immune to death until the very last pages. Think of all the improbable nonsense we've had to sit through this season. Jaime getting tackled off a horse instead of incinerated. Theon escaping death for the twentieth goddamned time. Arya and Sansa overcoming Littlefinger's schemes with hilarious ease. And most damningly, seven named characters marching into the wilderness on the dumbest mission ever conceived, running into impossible, overwhelming danger, and six of them walking out. This is not the same show we started watching; Ned Stark would have died a dozen times over on that mission, and lost several thousand sons in the process.

    You can argue that maybe this would all be better if Martin had written the details himself, that'd he'd gloss over or write around the improbabilities we'd seen this season. But the fundamental conflict between these two stories would still be there. We have important, previously very vulnerable characters who now for narrative reasons cannot die. No matter how well it's done, everything about that type of story is going to feel at least a bit weird.

    I'll still watch the last season, though. So will you. What other socially acceptable venue do we have for watching aunt sex?
     
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  20. Caped Crusader

    Caped Crusader Juniors

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