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General Discussion Thread

Luke Bowden

First Grade
Messages
7,304
You and your hatred of stats and facts.

Why wait and see if an area has improved when we can just say it has improved based on some fantasy world were doing something against an average team seems to somehow mean we will do it against all teams?

Deadset. Only on this site could you get grilled for a wait and see attitude towards knowing if we've improved against top 4 teams.

Im over it. You have your head buried in the sand thinking beating a couple of bottom 4 sides is proof we csn beat top 4 sides.

Im not saying we cant. Im saying until we face them we can't possibly know for certain how we measure up against them. Anything else is a f**king guess.

We did it to Jonathan Thurston. We shut down Ash Taylor, Corey Norman twice... this is not fantasy land.

I have no problem with stats, you just don’t use them correctly.

It’s not the beating of these teams that tells me we are going well, it’s the way we played in the games.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,328
We have the second lowest number of points conceded. The Tigers are first. They have missed 208 tackles. The Warriors 206. The good teams we have yet to play, don't seem to be that much better. Hmmm. You mention penalties but what about errors and handling errors? There is more to this than picking out single stats. With such a small sample, a single game blowout where a team scores 50 points can skew the stats. Have a look at the Bulldogs stats. They should be closer to the top. High completion rate, top 3 time in opposition 20, 3rd lowest errors, 3rd lowest missed tackles. Where are they? 14th.

MX, you just have to wait until a few more games have been played before we can really see what's what.
Thats exactly what I am saying.

Im getting grilled in wanting a better sample of teams before judging us. We have done exceptionally well so far. But so far we have had it easy compared to other teams also. We cant control who we play. Obviously. But until we face the top sides we are just guessing about how we stack up against them.

Again.. im.not saying we havent improved and that we cant beat these teams. Im saying until we face them we can't know for certain.
 

tripster

Juniors
Messages
1,961
We were the worst team in the NRL for converting time in the red zone into tries. Worse than the wooden spooners. There are three things to consider there:

1. We spent much of the season with inexperienced halves due to injuries and mental health issues. If anybody doubts whether experience helps, take a look at the difference between Maloney and Cleary. We also spent last season without an organising half. Watching Moylan toil away at the Sharks was like deja vu for last year. He plays what's in front of him and if the opposition are on the back foot then he just carves them up like a joint of roast beef. When the team has good defence, he seems to lose his way. As did we, repeatedly.

2. Cleary has yet to show that he can lead the team as an elite level halfback like Maloney has done for us in the last 3.5 weeks. His kicking game is limited and needs a lot of work and he doesn't seem to be able to organise the team to build an attack and find gaps. I'm sure spending time with Moylan and Cartwright as halves partners wouldn't have helped. Those two just make it up as they go along, but the good teams can do that and also structure their attack for set plays. Last year we had a good , inexperienced halfback, who isn't really an organising half and has a limited range of kicks. Let's hope Cleary can change that description in 2018.

3. If you accept that poor attack is both a coaching problem and a player problem, then Hook has to take some blame for last year and he didn't address some of the issues in attack. Whatever has happened this year, which I believe includes getting more help from Brandy and Gus, seems to have helped. Also having an elite level half who can read the game, organise the team and provide a lot of variation with their kicks, seem to have made a massive difference.

This year we have managed to win against teams with big forwards (Cowboys, Souths) and with good defence. We wouldn't have beaten South's last year. Our forwards made us stay in the game this year. We wouldn't have beaten the Cowboys because their forwards would have got on top and even with JT off his game they would have powered home. We couldn't crack their defence last year and only just beat them.

This year, our forward pack is a lean, mean league machine. There are no bulky Marty Tapau types in our team. They are all lean, aggressive, mobile and fitter than a Kenyan runner. JFH is doing a passable impression of Nigel Plum and just quietly goes around bashing people so hard they briefly enter a different dimension, whilst they look around to get the number of the truck that just hit them. I love the fact he does none of the Brown type histrionics, he just does them in like an SAS trooper, two shots to the head with a silenced Glock, next! After the game against us, JT checked in his wardrobe when he got home to make sure JFH wasn't in it. Merrin is clearly angry about something and long may it continue, Kikau doesn't need to be angry, he is so f*cking big he only has to fall on you and you lose the will to live and RCG is continuing on where he left off with the Kangaroos (a bit down the last few games though).

In spite of the protestations that we have only played shit teams, in the forwards we have faced Scott, Bolton, Woods, Klemmer, the Burgess boys, Hess, Taumololo, Proctor, Arrow and Dally M 3 point winning Nathan Brown (WTF Joe?). Our forward pack has held its own against all of them. The Titans were smashed into submission this week by a black steam roller called the Panthers. They held on well for 30 minutes and then the relentless power of our pack just drove them backwards until they started to drop like flies at a Baygon factory.

Does that mean we can beat the Tigers, Warriors and Dragons? Who knows, but this constant belittling of any team we play as shit undervalues the effort the team has put in.

Fantastic post. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

They other thing I would say about our pack is that, despite being lean, they are clearly very strong. Opposition teams have not been making big metres against us. That seems to be a combination of our line speed and also our strength. We also seem to be making (I haven't checked the stats) more metres per set than other teams.
 

mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,328
We did it to Jonathan Thurston. We shut down Ash Taylor, Corey Norman twice... this is not fantasy land.

I have no problem with stats, you just don’t use them correctly.
Thurston and Norman have been owned all season.

Why exactly is it impressive that we did what every other team did to them? Between them they have 1 win from 12 games.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,989
Fantastic post. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

They other thing I would say about our pack is that, despite being lean, they are clearly very strong. Opposition teams have not been making big metres against us. That seems to be a combination of our line speed and also our strength. We also seem to be making (I haven't checked the stats) more metres per set than other teams.
We have played 3 of the top 10 teams for run metres. The Bulldogs, Cowboys and Souths (they are top). We are fifth and about 100m a game behind leaders South's. For run metres conceded, we are the fifth lowest. The Dragons are 1st and the Cowboys are 3rd. We also concede the second fewest offloads. We are middle of the road when it comes to line breaks conceded, although it is quite congested there with only three line breaks between 3rd and seventh.

So yes, we are hard to make metres against and we make plenty of metres as well.
 

Fangs

Coach
Messages
13,788
It doesn't matter. What matters is the way we are playing.

Be Honest, what area of our game do you think is not Top 4 quality. What is Hook super stressed about. That's the only way to truely judge how we are travelling.

I still think our attack inside the 20 won't trouble teams with decent defence.

Has been a problem for many years here at Penrith. Will see what Maloney can do there.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
I still think our attack inside the 20 won't trouble teams with decent defence.

Has been a problem for many years here at Penrith. Will see what Maloney can do there.

We have scored plenty inside the 20 this year. That gives me hope. We are far off knowing the best teams in the comp though.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,956
I still think our attack inside the 20 won't trouble teams with decent defence.

Has been a problem for many years here at Penrith. Will see what Maloney can do there.

Its improving, Maloney will go a long way toward fixing this issue. He is already striking up a nice combo with Wallace and Edwards so if they can build on that and add Cleary in we should be ok.
 

MrBlack

Juniors
Messages
1,430
In 6 games we have missed 220 tackles. Average of 36.66 per game. Very similar to how many we averaged last year. We are also the most penalised team in the competition.

It stands to reason that the better teams might be more likely to punish us then the bottom sides.

But again... until we face them there is no way to know.

Another important stat is that we are second in the nrl for wins.

Just 8 more and we qualify for our 3rd finals series in 3 years.
 

MrBlack

Juniors
Messages
1,430
Its improving, Maloney will go a long way toward fixing this issue. He is already striking up a nice combo with Wallace and Edwards so if they can build on that and add Cleary in we should be ok.

Half our backline and half our halves are injured. Makeshift fowards in the backs. Band aid approach each week.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
Half our backline and half our halves are injured. Makeshift fowards in the backs. Band aid approach each week.

We also don't know what the top 8 will be come round 25. Even in the Parra game at ANZ we looked likely to score when inside the 20 just dropped it. That is all you can go by each game how we look attack wise the ladder will sort itself out later
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
Half our backline and half our halves are injured. Makeshift fowards in the backs. Band aid approach each week.

The easy teams are helping us through this. I know they have said it's been simplified because Cleary is out but I believe they should stick with it when he comes back. It's the best we've played in years.
 

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