Geoff Carr warns players off Samoa

[Springs]

Like it or not, any rep match below NRL level is just a developmental tool. SBW played for the NSWU19's.

And the PMXIII, NZ Maori, the Indigenous All Stars, etc etc, ARE invitational and represent heritage, not a nation.

To you, just because they wore green and gold does not mean they are Australian.

What utter crap.
So you have to be Australian to play for NSW but you don't have to be Australian to play for NSW U19s? How ridiculous.

And representing a team called the Australian PMXIII or the New Zealand Maori doesn't mean you are Australian or New Zealander? Sorry, that's just absolute crap, you have to be Australian to play for a team called Australia.

 

[hutch]

If there ever are mid-season rep weekends and there are pacific island tests played on the same weekend as Origin, think about it. Either Tonga will play Samoa at Parramatta Stadium or at a tiny ground in either country, or they will play as a curtain raiser to the Origin match. All this while the entire country's attention will be on the Origin match. Players will still choose Origin over their nation of heritage. I don't see how having 'rep weekends' with minnows playing will entice them anymore than having meaningful tests at the end of the year like there are now.

which countries attention will be on origin? australias attention, who cares? the actual countries of tonga, samoa etc will benefit immensely, especially if test matches with their full national teams are played on home soil. if some players dont want to commit to these countries because they wish to hold out for origin and australia then that is their choice if they are eligible.

It's a pretty simple solution for strengthening the pacific islands. Separate Origin from tests.

so origin remains the be all and end all?

And didn't Gareth Widdop play for the NSW Residents side or something? And then played for England? Why is it only representing the state at Origin level that ties you to your country? In fact how did Uate represent the Australian Prime Minister's XIII when he was not eligible? Don't give me that crap about it's just an invitational side it doesn't mean anything etc. He still wore the green and gold, played in a team called Australia, and represented the country on foreign soil against another nation.

i dont know how widdop is eligible for the nsw residents to be honest. i thought it just may be a nsw cup rep team, but i dont think any players from the auckland vulcans made it so it beats me. and yeah, youre right about uate, the whole thing stinks.

 

[hutch]

If there ever are mid-season rep weekends and there are pacific island tests played on the same weekend as Origin, think about it. Either Tonga will play Samoa at Parramatta Stadium or at a tiny ground in either country, or they will play as a curtain raiser to the Origin match. All this while the entire country's attention will be on the Origin match. Players will still choose Origin over their nation of heritage. I don't see how having 'rep weekends' with minnows playing will entice them anymore than having meaningful tests at the end of the year like there are now.

which countries attention will be on origin? australias attention, who cares? the actual countries of tonga, samoa etc will benefit immensely, especially if test matches with their full national teams are played on home soil. if some players dont want to commit to these countries because they wish to hold out for origin and australia then that is their choice if they are eligible.

It's a pretty simple solution for strengthening the pacific islands. Separate Origin from tests.

so origin remains the be all and end all?

And didn't Gareth Widdop play for the NSW Residents side or something? And then played for England? Why is it only representing the state at Origin level that ties you to your country? In fact how did Uate represent the Australian Prime Minister's XIII when he was not eligible? Don't give me that crap about it's just an invitational side it doesn't mean anything etc. He still wore the green and gold, played in a team called Australia, and represented the country on foreign soil against another nation.

i dont know how widdop is eligible for the nsw residents to be honest. i thought it just may be a nsw cup rep team, but i dont think any players from the auckland vulcans made it so it beats me. and yeah, youre right about uate, the whole thing stinks.

 

[hutch]

double post

 

[Springs]

which countries attention will be on origin? australias attention, who cares? the actual countries of tonga, samoa etc will benefit immensely, especially if test matches with their full national teams are played on home soil. if some players dont want to commit to these countries because they wish to hold out for origin and australia then that is their choice if they are eligible

The NRL is based in Australia, the Pacific Islander NRL players will want to play in Origin where all the attention is on them. The Pacific Islands will end up with teams like in last year's pacific cup, instead of the muc stronger teams they had in the World Cup. Playing a Pacific Cup every year, while Origin players are allowed to play, will be much more beneficial than a mid-year test on the same weekend as Origin.

And they don't want to hold out for Australia, most simply want to hold out for Origin, which will be on at the same time and have all the hype as the 'pinnacle' of the game.

 

[hutch]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/league/...d-origin-chances/story-e6frf3ou-1225938463175


"I think it's a bit sad that international rules don't allow me to play for Samoa if I want to play Origin. They are not a dominant country in rugby league and the presence of NRL players will only help with their development.

"That situation could be reviewed only if the players made themselves unavailable for Samoa for two years.

It is believed McGuire will play against New Zealand because, as a 20-year-old prop, he believes he is some way off playing Origin."

-
In reference to the quotes from the article

1. Daniel Vidot is spot on
2. Unfortunately, like fu*k does anyone stick to that rule
3. Well done Josh McGuire.

if you are not willing to commit to a country in the long term, then p*ss off and let somebody who wants to play for their country play.

some of you people live in a dreamland, you seem to think that samoa should be a world superpower at the moment. news flash, rugby league is still barely played in the actual country of samoa, they are lucky that nz and australia have developed pretty much all of their players for them. they need to be developed over time, they need players who commit to them as a nation and not because they are not good enough for origin, aus, nz, whoever! they need to get samoa kids IN SAMOA playing rugby league. they dont need players to 'help' them out for a while because they are not a dominant rugby league nation. if maguire believes he is a few years off origin so will play for samoa for a while, how the hell does this help samoa? as soon as he is good enough he will quit them for qld and australia, him playing does nothing for the development of rugby league in samoa. in fact, they dont bother developing rugby league in samoa at all because these types of australian players are available for 2 or 3 years until they ditch them.

stop wanting a quick fix, we could have a strong international rugby league in 10-15 years time and toa samoa could be a legitimate international team that the country could be proud of, with heritage players who are committed to the country and players who grew up in samoa wanting to play for their national rugby league team.

 

[hutch]

The NRL is based in Australia, the Pacific Islander NRL players will want to play in Origin where all the attention is on them. The Pacific Islands will end up with teams like in last year's pacific cup, instead of the muc stronger teams they had in the World Cup. Playing a Pacific Cup every year, while Origin players are allowed to play, will be much more beneficial than a mid-year test on the same weekend as Origin.

you do know that a lot of pacific islanders are australian right or that they have dual nationality? and how did the "much" stronger teams in the world cup go? they were full of players who would rather play for aus, nz, origin etc. and the farce continues. the pacific teams at last years pacific cup were strong, and those players would be locked into those countries. other players will join them over time. we are basically at square zero now, but these countries would 'develop' over the next decade and create a national team with a core group of players.

And they don't want to hold out for Australia, most simply want to hold out for Origin, which will be on at the same time and have all the hype as the 'pinnacle' of the game.

how do you know and can you name examples? if a player doesnt want to commit to a country because they want to play origin then that is their choice, they musnt want to play for that country too bad.

 

[franklin2323]

how do you know and can you name examples? if a player doesnt want to commit to a country because they want to play origin then that is their choice, they musnt want to play for that country too bad.

Read the Vidot article not once does he mention wanting to play for Australia. Just QLD yet he's suddenly on the same level as a Slater, Lockyer etc that want to wear the jersey.

That's the problem I have. As much as Samoan's prob want Samoans to play I want only Australians to wear the green and gold not someone who only wears the jersey because they can't play internationally otherwise

 

[Evil Homer]

Hutch, you're right in that we need to develop genuine players from these nations rather than relying on heritage players, but we've seen in the case of Uate that there's no guarantee of them not turning their back on their native countries for Origin once they have lived in Australia long enough. And if the players don't move to Australia then they probably aren't going to develop, since there's no way that nations like Samoa and Fiji will ever really be able to sustain pro leagues. At the moment, Origin is the biggest problem for international RL in the Southern Hemisphere and I would happily see it scrapped. At the moment, the rules are deliberately designed to stifle developing nations and stop the game from spreading. The ARL are worse anti-expansionists than English 'flat cappers'.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

Uate never touched a rugby leage ball before he came to Australia. Fiji did not develop him. He was a Wyong junior.

 

[hutch]

Hutch, you're right in that we need to develop genuine players from these nations rather than relying on heritage players, but we've seen in the case of Uate that there's no guarantee of them not turning their back on their native countries for Origin once they have lived in Australia long enough. And if the players don't move to Australia then they probably aren't going to develop, since there's no way that nations like Samoa and Fiji will ever really be able to sustain pro leagues. At the moment, Origin is the biggest problem for international RL in the Southern Hemisphere and I would happily see it scrapped. At the moment, the rules are deliberately designed to stifle developing nations and stop the game from spreading. The ARL are worse anti-expansionists than English 'flat cappers'.

which is why uate should not even have the choice of switching to australia, and as the arl have a policy of only picking players available to australia for origin then he shouldnt be available for nsw either.

 

[Iafeta]

What utter crap.
So you have to be Australian to play for NSW but you don't have to be Australian to play for NSW U19s? How ridiculous.

And representing a team called the Australian PMXIII or the New Zealand Maori doesn't mean you are Australian or New Zealander? Sorry, that's just absolute crap, you have to be Australian to play for a team called Australia.

LOL how wrong can you be.

I have plenty of friends who are born in Australia, but are of Maori descendency. They class themselves as Australian, and also Maori. Are you meaning to tell me they have no right to honour their ancestory, their heritage, their racial background? Of course they do. They also have a right to consider themselves Australian. There is absolutely no problem with Timana Tahu for example representing NZ Maori, he is representing his ancestorial race, whichever tribe his whanau is from, he is not representing New Zealand.

Teams such as New Zealand Maori, NSW U19, Australian Schoolboys are all representative teams. But they are not international top class sides. It is at the top level and I believe Junior Kiwis/Junior Kangaroos level where you have to make that ultimate decision.

 

[Springs]

you do know that a lot of pacific islanders are australian right or that they have dual nationality? and how did the "much" stronger teams in the world cup go? they were full of players who would rather play for aus, nz, origin etc. and the farce continues. the pacific teams at last years pacific cup were strong, and those players would be locked into those countries. other players will join them over time. we are basically at square zero now, but these countries would 'develop' over the next decade and create a national team with a core group of players.



how do you know and can you name examples? if a player doesnt want to commit to a country because they want to play origin then that is their choice, they musnt want to play for that country too bad.

I know that Samoa didn't lose to the Cook Islands at the World Cup, and Fiji made the Semi Finals in the World Cup yet lost to oh yeah, the Cooks again in the Pacific Cup.

Examples ay? Well, Vidot and Uate come to mind. Considering Vidot has only stated he wants to play for Queensland. And he obviously wants to play for Samoa. It's just, you know, three games in the most highly anticipated Australian rugby league series advertised as the pinnacle, or one game a year in Cairns against the Cook Islands? Funnily enough, Samoa is playing more games this year than they did last year, even with no competition to play in.

 

[Springs]

LOL how wrong can you be.

I have plenty of friends who are born in Australia, but are of Maori descendency. They class themselves as Australian, and also Maori. Are you meaning to tell me they have no right to honour their ancestory, their heritage, their racial background? Of course they do. They also have a right to consider themselves Australian. There is absolutely no problem with Timana Tahu for example representing NZ Maori, he is representing his ancestorial race, whichever tribe his whanau is from, he is not representing New Zealand.

Teams such as New Zealand Maori, NSW U19, Australian Schoolboys are all representative teams. But they are not international top class sides. It is at the top level and I believe Junior Kiwis/Junior Kangaroos level where you have to make that ultimate decision.

I never said you have no right, but i did say that you cannot represent Maori and then not call yourself New Zealander. And if representing NSW is also representing Australia because NSW is a state of Australia, like so many others keep saying, then representing New Zealand Maori is representing New Zealand. How can you play for a team with a country's name in it, yet not represent that country whatsoever?

Teams such as New Zealand Maori, NSW U19, Australian Schoolboys are all representative teams. But they are not international top class sides.

Irrelevant. Take the NSW U19s as an example. Look carefully at what it says before U19s, is that NSW? So if you represent NSW U19s are you representing the state of NSW? Yes. Is NSW a state of Australia? Yes. So by the definition of others (like the ARL) saying that you have to be Australian to represent NSW, then you must have to be Australian to represent the U19s no?
If Widdop can represent a NSW side and play for England, Vidot should be allowed to represent QLD and play for Samoa.

 

[skeepe]

The many in this thread continually claiming that Vidot never mentions wanting to play for Australia should learn to read properly.

"I understand that if I get picked for Queensland the only country I can represent is Australia, and that is my ultimate aim."

http://www.foxsports.com.au/league/...d-origin-chances/story-e6frf3ou-1225938463175

Sometimes you need to read further than the headline.

 

[Iafeta]

I never said you have no right, but i did say that you cannot represent Maori and then not call yourself New Zealander. And if representing NSW is also representing Australia because NSW is a state of Australia, like so many others keep saying, then representing New Zealand Maori is representing New Zealand. How can you play for a team with a country's name in it, yet not represent that country whatsoever?



Irrelevant. Take the NSW U19s as an example. Look carefully at what it says before U19s, is that NSW? So if you represent NSW U19s are you representing the state of NSW? Yes. Is NSW a state of Australia? Yes. So by the definition of others (like the ARL) saying that you have to be Australian to represent NSW, then you must have to be Australian to represent the U19s no?
If Widdop can represent a NSW side and play for England, Vidot should be allowed to represent QLD and play for Samoa.

You are totally missing the point. Timana Tahu is a perfect example. His ancestory is Maori. He is not a New Zealander. Again, I know a lot of Australian born people who are from Maori heritage. They associate with their heritage (their race), but acknowledge themselves as Australians. It's their right, their prerogative, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's just how it is. Maori is not a nationality. It is a heritage, a race. Again, Tahu is an Australian with Maori race ancestory.

No, you don't have to be Australian to represent U19s. Infact, that's quite naive to suggest you do. It is based on residency. It is not a citizenship criteria. It is more a criteria of you are at an actual age and you reside in a particular area. Playing for a national team means you are that nationality, you can live elsewhere, and you can be any age, but you are that nationality. Much like schoolboys, Benji and the like played Australian schoolboys, because, in actual fact they WERE Australian schoolboys. As in they were going to school here. But that does not necessarily make them Australian. Again, Benji was an Australian schoolboy, but he is not Australian. Timana Tahu is of Maori heritage, but he is not a New Zealander. Both are right to have represented NSW U19s, Australian Schoolboys, and now for Tahu New Zealand Maori.

 

[Eels Dude]

Question. if rugby league is so much more popular than rugby union in Australia then why is it a Bledisloe Cup match will draw a full house wherever they play but a Kangaroos v Kiwis game will get half that amount? It's because rugby union has worked out that international sport puts bums on seats and brings with it a much higher media profile than the sport really deserves. Plenty of people care that Australia are playing but don't give a toss about some suburb of Sydney. Until we take the international game seriously and try to grow it, even if that means Australia might lose a series or two or a WC here and there, then we'll just be watching the same old same old. If SoO is the be all and end all then at the end of the day we'll get what we deserve. Congratulations on winning everything yet again Australia.

It's because it's actually a competitive game internationally, whereas Rugby League is so much more popular in Australia due to the strong domestic comp and SOO. It's up to other nations to develop the game, they cannot be relying on handouts from the NRL and ARL when we're struggling to fund the game here at grassroots level ourselves.

If Rugby League were to take off internationally like Union, it's not going to be from countries like PNG and Fiji, but econimally rich countries like Italy and Japan who can afford, same as in union. The problem then is that the NRL as a domestic competition will suffer becuase ever more of our best players will chase the big bucks overseas.

On Daniel Vidot situation. Well as SOO is a domestically run competition and the requirement is that only Australian eligible players take part, then so be it. I can't see why anyone should have a problem with that. If players wish to align themselves with nations like Samoa and Tonga, then good on them but they shouldn't be allowed to change their allegiance to Australia the year after... unless of course it's pre-determined that they can change allegience for a one off tournament only like world cups.

 

[Springs]

You are totally missing the point. Timana Tahu is a perfect example. His ancestory is Maori. He is not a New Zealander. Again, I know a lot of Australian born people who are from Maori heritage. They associate with their heritage (their race), but acknowledge themselves as Australians. It's their right, their prerogative, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's just how it is. Maori is not a nationality. It is a heritage, a race. Again, Tahu is an Australian with Maori race ancestory.

No, you don't have to be Australian to represent U19s. Infact, that's quite naive to suggest you do. It is based on residency. It is not a citizenship criteria. It is more a criteria of you are at an actual age and you reside in a particular area. Playing for a national team means you are that nationality, you can live elsewhere, and you can be any age, but you are that nationality. Much like schoolboys, Benji and the like played Australian schoolboys, because, in actual fact they WERE Australian schoolboys. As in they were going to school here. But that does not necessarily make them Australian. Again, Benji was an Australian schoolboy, but he is not Australian. Timana Tahu is of Maori heritage, but he is not a New Zealander. Both are right to have represented NSW U19s, Australian Schoolboys, and now for Tahu New Zealand Maori.

My great-grandparents on my father's father's side were born in England. Am I English? Yes. Am I Australian? Yes. I am not 100% Australian and my line never will be. Tahu's father cannot be born in New Zealand if Tahu is 100% Australian. Part of Tahu is New Zealander.

And for Christ's sake that is my point. Why is the criteria for NSW Origin and NSW U19s completely different? They are the same state, they wear the same colours and they represent the same people. They are essentially the same team. And representing a national team in no way makes you that nationality, Nathan Fien is not automatically a New Zealander because he lived there for three years. And I don'y know how you can say Tahu is Maori but not New Zealander, it's like saying that someone is Indigenous Australian but not Australian. How does that make sense?

 

[Iafeta]

Quite easily, really. If your parents are Aboriginal, but you are born and bred in Houston, Texas after your parents move there for employment opportunities, your heritage is Aboriginal but to say your nationality can't be American and has to be Australian to match your racial heritage of obtuse. There is a fair chance that persons citizenship and how they regard themselves is American, but that they represent the notions of their Aboriginal heritage. The Tahu situation is no different. He is a born and bred Australian with Maori roots. He is not however, a New Zealander.

 

[siv]

The issue here is SOO a stand alone "international" type of event - OR - is a selection trial for the Australian national team

ARL has always beleived that it is part of the selection process for the Australian national team, just as is the City v NSW Country match

So all Geoff Carr is stating is the RLIF laws and Australia intrepations

If you play fro another country then you must sit out 2 years before changing "nationalities"

All I say is that RLKIF should make a stand and say if you play SOO it does not count against you if you want to play for another nation

But in reverse I agree with the ARL - if you play for another nation - it DOES count against you if you want to comeback and play for Australia - OR itrs selection trial matches (ie the SOO's)

The only problem is that kids can make these Tier 2 nations easier than they can Tier 1 national / SOO squads

So they are forced to make a call and decide if they will ever play SOO or for Australia - very early in their career