God shall not be mocked

[strider]

I am such an idiot for coming back into this thread. Who will let me know how to get that time back....

I think if you hit the "Quote" button - enter these 3 smilies :shock: :sarcasm: - and say 3 hail marys - you'll go back a day

:thumn

 

[stiffmeister]

Mate I don't want to argue and as I stated in my previous posts, you will find the truth in your own time. I'm done with arguing.

Finding out the truth may take a life's journey. Maybe the following will help

ho created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues? Christianity's answer

Christianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
​

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

• No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
• This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
• The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
• To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:
"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: “Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.” Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1
God exists in timeless eternity

How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
God exists in multiple dimension of time

The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.
Why can't the universe be eternal?

The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempt to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.
What does science say about time?

When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.
Conclusion

God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

Einstein's comment is taken out of context. Subtle is tongue in cheek for non existant. The rest is argument that because something seems impossible then it must be divine. Doesn't flow with me. Where did god come from?
The stupidity about us looking good because we don't have 5 heads or what not - what if we were created with 5 heads? Would you find everyone so hideous you would look yourself away?

 

[84 Baby]

I am intrigued by peoples opinions of Moral Absolutes? Who or what defiones good and evil, do good and evil actually exist? Where did morals come from?
This is pointed more directly to those who don't believe in God as I am pretty sure I know the answer from those that do believe in God.
Any evidence to back up your claims would be great too.

n.b. This is not a question about tricking people or proving one persons view is better than another, am really intrigued.

Cheers.

Now I would say morals came about from evolution but as you are Christian this would not work for you as you believe we were created in God's image. However think for a moment about a society without god, do you think it would break down in anarchy of murder, adultery, etc?

 

[yy_cheng]

Best post on this thread. I share the exact same thoughts.

Then the age old question : Who created GOD?

For mine, Jesus was an Alien with superior technology.

If you took a mobile phone or a microwave oven to some part of New Guinea and cooked food for them or showed them videos, they would think you were some god too!

But then, who is GOD?

 

[stiffmeister]

Best post on this thread. I share the exact same thoughts.

Thanks Ron, how are you dude?

 

[stiffmeister]

Great post, stiffy.

Thanks mate.

Finding the truth may be a life long journey

 

[84 Baby]

Mate I don't want to argue and as I stated in my previous posts, you will find the truth in your own time. I'm done with arguing.

Finding out the truth may take a life's journey. Maybe the following will help

ho created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues? Christianity's answer

Christianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

​

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

• No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
• This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
• The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
• To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:
"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: “Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.” Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1
God exists in timeless eternity

How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.
God exists in multiple dimension of time

The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.
Why can't the universe be eternal?

The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempt to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.
What does science say about time?

When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.
Conclusion

God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).

For someone who doesn't want to argue you're doing a good job. I'm sorry but infinite regression isn't put to bed by saying that god always was. By saying he exists outside of time or in different dimensions or whatever is a massive copout. Typical Creationist dribble attempting to use big words to give more importance to meaningless "facts." Particularly lover the invention of a super universe that can't be confirmed... as opposed to the god dimension or an entity that exists outside of time. Plus glad you retorted about your misuse of Einstein

 

[Kornstar]

What about Aliens, who created them?

 

[The P Eel]

I think if you hit the "Quote" button - enter these 3 smilies :shock: :sarcasm: - and say 3 hail marys - you'll go back a day

:thumn

Some sanity at last - thanks Strides!

 

[N.Hindmarsh_Fan]

The whole point of Christ coming was to bring a New Covenant.

The point of Jeus coming was to give us salvation, the link between God and man was broken, Jesus is the bridge.

Remember when he was asked which Commandment was the most important and he said that there was now only one Commandment - Love thy neighbour as thy love thyself?

He actually said two things, Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and Love your neighbour as yourself, but the question that was asked to Jesus was "What are the most important of commandments" He never stated you only need to follow these two.

The whole point of Christ was to change the way people related to God and attained salvation. He was therefore the new Covenant and therefore did away with the old Covenant.

Yes

Which is wierd because he observed Passover. Then again, those contradictions are the very essence of Christianity, aren't they?

No contradictions here bro, Jesus was in essence God in his human form, he wrote those laws and he fulfilled them.

No problemo.

However, based on your comments in this thread you are absolutely ignorant of the true nature and intent of Christ. You can take that as offensive if you want but it wasn't meant to be. Don't worry, a helluva lot of people take my straight talking offensively because most people don't like the truth shattering their facade of security.

I will stand by my comments simply because of your earlier comments.

However, if you wanna have a beer and a theological discussion then, mate, that's right up my bloody alley. Would absolutely love to do it.

You sound very honest and thats good thing, it would be interesting to meet ya as you seem like a good bloke and you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs mate.

 

[Angry_eel]

The thread is going how I imagined it would. Just as the sane people turn up, everyone starts respecting opposite views.

Since its turning into what everyone believes, I will also have a go. I was brought up as a hindu(I don't think anyone is born as a Hindu or a Muslims or a Christian). A while ago, I started to question many parts of Hinduism(there is even an atheistic philosophy in Hinduism which I like). So I have no belief in God, Gods, Dieties, Devil, Karma or Reincarnation/Afterlife. I also have no belief in Heaven or Hell in terms of them being in another place. I believe both of those are on this planet and through life I have experienced both. I believe that major holy books of every Religion have some good things but they are mainly designed to keep humans in order.


In terms of origins of Life etc. To be honest, I have no use of those. Its not my job to care about it or to find out about it. Similar to how I don't care where the economic system started. If Scientists or Theologists find the answer during my lifetime, I would be open to accepting it.

Having said all that, if being Religious helps you become a better person by all means be religious.

 

[yy_cheng]

What about Aliens, who created them?

Eelz47?

I meant GOD.

 

[N.Hindmarsh_Fan]

For someone who doesn't want to argue you're doing a good job. I'm sorry but infinite regression isn't put to bed by saying that god always was. By saying he exists outside of time or in different dimensions or whatever is a massive copout. Typical Creationist dribble attempting to use big words to give more importance to meaningless "facts." Particularly lover the invention of a super universe that can't be confirmed... as opposed to the god dimension or an entity that exists outside of time. Plus glad you retorted about your misuse of Einstein

All that matters is that Jesus loves you!

 

[N.Hindmarsh_Fan]

The thread is going how I imagined it would. Just as the sane people turn up, everyone starts respecting opposite views.

Since its turning into what everyone believes, I will also have a go. I was brought up as a hindu(I don't think anyone is born as a Hindu or a Muslims or a Christian). A while ago, I started to question many parts of Hinduism(there is even an atheistic philosophy in Hinduism which I like). So I have no belief in God, Gods, Dieties, Devil, Karma or Reincarnation/Afterlife. I also have no belief in Heaven or Hell in terms of them being in another place. I believe both of those are on this planet and through life I have experienced both. I believe that major holy books of every Religion have some good things but they are mainly designed to keep humans in order.


In terms of origins of Life etc. To be honest, I have no use of those. Its not my job to care about it or to find out about it. Similar to how I don't care where the economic system started. If Scientists or Theologists find the answer during my lifetime, I would be open to accepting it.

Having said all that, if being Religious helps you become a better person by all means be religious.

You aint so angry after all.

 

[Kornstar]

What about Aliens, who created them?

I don't mean to quote myself but this is a genuine question.

I would like to know what you religious people think of Aliens as i have seen much more evidence of UFO's/Aliens than i have of Jesus or God.

I read some of these hand outs that i receive from people who knock on your door etc. and i feel like i am receiving threats that if i don't believe i will suffer the wrath of the new "Government" etc.

I am a complete non-believer in religion or god.

 

[84 Baby]

The thread is going how I imagined it would. Just as the sane people turn up, everyone starts respecting opposite views.

Since its turning into what everyone believes, I will also have a go. I was brought up as a hindu(I don't think anyone is born as a Hindu or a Muslims or a Christian). A while ago, I started to question many parts of Hinduism(there is even an atheistic philosophy in Hinduism which I like). So I have no belief in God, Gods, Dieties, Devil, Karma or Reincarnation/Afterlife. I also have no belief in Heaven or Hell in terms of them being in another place. I believe both of those are on this planet and through life I have experienced both. I believe that major holy books of every Religion have some good things but they are mainly designed to keep humans in order.


In terms of origins of Life etc. To be honest, I have no use of those. Its not my job to care about it or to find out about it. Similar to how I don't care where the economic system started. If Scientists or Theologists find the answer during my lifetime, I would be open to accepting it.

Having said all that, if being Religious helps you become a better person by all means be religious.

Unfortunately religion begets fanaticism

 

[84 Baby]

All that matters is that Jesus loves you!

As Mohammed loves you

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Thanks Ron, how are you dude?

Good dude, better if we won the darn game but oh well...

I just think we were designed in a specific way that evolution canno explain, and as you pointed out, the earths location to the sun etc etc...it's like it was all specifically set up.

Do i believe in Jesus? dunno, however i will say for something that has been percieved as BS by many people throughout the world, the bible itself is very comprehensive, not just a chapter on 'oh yeah, he turned water into wine blah blah' that's were i've always had the 'what if' back in my mind in relation to Jesus, books like the bible cannot be ignored due to the detail, time taken to write it and witnesses. But as i was saying, i'm not totally convinced that thebook is the be and end all, hence why i believe in creation - think about it? if you were to create say a robot, you'd want it to have characteristics like ourselves? you'd wanna be able to hear, smell, walk etc etc hence why i share that view.

Anyway i believe in alot of things, a little from column a and b, i believe in a creator, however i believe in Jesus, i believe in the bible however i also believe in re-incarnation, after life etc ( not specifically a heaven) so god knows where i'm at:crazy:might just create my own cult - sex, alcohol, football, 80's hair tunes, and a stockmarket with no chance of the SP going down and no capital raisings

 

[84 Baby]

I don't mean to quote myself but this is a genuine question.

I would like to know what you religious people think of Aliens as i have seen much more evidence of UFO's/Aliens than i have of Jesus or God.

I read some of these hand outs that i receive from people who knock on your door etc. and i feel like i am receiving threats that if i don't believe i will suffer the wrath of the new "Government" etc.

I am a complete non-believer in religion or god.

Going back to stiffmeister belief that our existence is impossible so must be divine, yeah our existence is unlikely but there are uncounted systems in the universe, at some point a planet was destined to come into the perfect life bearing conditions, as there are countless more systems, it is possible that there are other similar planets to ours

 

[eeelectroshooting?]

I think you'll find that most people respect your choice of religion.

But I think you'll also find that people will get annoyed when you try to push your beliefs onto them.

spot on

and....

Well said Champ.

You will probably get knocked by idiots for saying what you said but I think it's quite pathetic using Jesus' name in vein. For those who probably don't understand or are not religious, I urge you all to steer clear of any mocking or making fun of Jesus even though it may not have been intented to offend anyone.

Cheers
GO THE EELS

I'm going to knock him (I believe what he said to be a load of sh*t), but i resent being called an idiot for it.