Have the Warriors lost their identity ?

[ozbash]

Sorry to keep harping on about this :^o but i,m starting to feel as though the Warriors are starting to let the nation down with their policy of ignoring local talent (granted, unproven in the nrl but you gotta start somewhere ! ) and buying up large the cheap aussies who seem to have trouble getting a club.

When the club kicked off against the Broncs in March 95 it was hyped up as new zealands (thats us folks) chance to join a top competition and show the aussies how it was done. which we did to a degree. There were a couple of poms and a couple of australians - blake and brandy- .

how many will be in the club 07 ?

The poms are crying foul over the number of aussie/kiwi imports taking british spaces in ESL teams and i think its time we did the same.

How does the purchasing of these cheapo aussies help the game in nz ?
our good players are snapped up by the aussie clubs and go off shore to further their careers. wouldnt it be better for the game as a whole in nz if they were developed here ?

maybe thats why the crowds are so piss poor at home games,,, who wants to go watch a team and a half of aussies play ?

 

[Martli]

wouldnt it be better for the game as a whole in nz if they were developed here ?

I seriously doubt that the likes of Roy Asotasi or Sonny Bill williams would be as good as they are today if they played in batercard cup waiting for their call-up in the warriors. Sending guys to australia does wonders for New Zealand rugby league, they develop into better players under far superior systems and then turn out for the Kiwis.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I don't give a sh*t how many Aussies are in the team.

There are 14 other NRL teams out there that Bartercard talent can get a contract with.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

blah blah blah....

I want to follow a team that wins. if half the team are Aussies I really don't care, every side inthe NRL has a fair percentage of imports. unitl we start looking like the Roosters I really don't give a rat's arse.

 

[Sanchez]

the team could be filled with martians. you support the team or you dont no matter whos playing

 

[Iafeta]

That 1995 team contained Australians too - Alexander, Blake, Manoa Thompson, and a couple of Poms in Platt and Betts.

ozbash, Australian clubs also nurture New Zealand talent. You tend to forget this in your tyrades. Vagana, Asotasi, Williams, Ben Roberts, Jeremy Smith, Nathan Cayless, Sia Soliola, David Kidwell, Jake Webster, Tame Tupou, David Faiumu, George Carmont, Steve Matai, Kylie Leuluai, James Stosic, Toshio Laeseni, Frank Pritchard, Tony Puletua, Frank Puletua, Adam Blair, Rangi Chase, Billy Ngawini, Matt Utai, Dene Halatau, Paul Whatuira, Jamaal Lolesi, Bronson Harrison just to name some of the top of my head.

Also, throughout the Warriors history, we have either debuted or provided a club to the following Kiwi eligible players

Ah Van
L Anderson
V Anderson
Atkins
Bailey
Bell
Betham
Beverly
Blackmore
Botica
Buckingham
Carter
Clarke
Doherty
Doreen
Edwards
Ellis
Endacott
Eru
Fa'afili
Faumuina
Ferris
Gulavao
Guttenbeil
Hape
Henare
Hermannson
Hill
Hohaia
Hoppe
Horo
Iro
Jones
Kearney
Kirwan
Koopu
Latu
Lauaki
Lauitiiti
Lester
Leuluai
Lewis
Liavaa
Lythe
Mackie
Malam
Mannering
Mann
Manuel
Meli
Mellars
Moana
Mulhall
Murary
Nelson
Ngamu
Noovao
Okesene
Pai
Paleaaesina
Perenera
Poching
Pongia
Rangi
Rapira
Ridge
Robinson
Ropati
Ropati
Ropati
Seuseu
Seuseu
Smith
Smith
Solomona
Staladi
Stowers
Swann
Swann
Taewa
Tatupu
Taulapapa
Temata
Temu
Tony
Toopi
Tuimavave
Tuimavave
Vagana
Vagana
Vatuvei
Vuna
Watene
Whatuira
Wiki
Whittaker
Young

That's a lot of players who were eligible for the Kiwis who've played first grade at the Warriors. That's why I regard the notion the Warriors have not developed New Zealand talent as being laughable, cynical and completely baseless.

Some of those players took those opportunities, some of them learnt here and took their chances elsewhere like Gulavao, Poching, Hape. Some of the older guys like Hermannson and Pongia were given another go over here. Some of them were straight out not up to it, but have been given a chance anyway incase they were another future Kiwi - Brady Malam, Karl Temata, hell, I know he's been capped before, but Jerome Ropati also.

Next year we will have Crockett (Bartercard to start off with), Price, Fien (now going to play for NZL), Martin (also eligible for NZL but more than likely Bartercard), Gatis, McKinnon, Kirk (Bartercard), Byrne (Bartercard) in our top 25. That leaves what, 18 spots to New Zealand born or bred players, and 2 of those aforenamed are willing and able to play for New Zealand anyway.

So what's the problem? There is none. The facts are these:-

* The club is a professional outfit who is judged by wins and losses and off field activities - signing 25 Kiwis with some who simply aren't up to it will create more losses and therefore turn outs will be lower, even lower then they are now, and our club as we know it is suddenly in immense danger
* There are now more Kiwis playing in the NRL at other clubs then ever before, if you look back historically, you'd be lucky to field XIII players in the ARL prior to the Warriors inception. Now that's not the case. Shows to me development pathways and scouting of New Zealand has improved. Which is a good thing for the Kiwis, lets not be naiive about it and suggest we can keep them all, nor suggest that staying with the Warriors is always the best way to get them to reach their potential.
* There is a significantly high proportion of locals amongst our team - with the possible exception of Brisbane and North Queensland, this percentage would be higher than other team in the NRL. So let's get that fact clear from the get-go and stop the hysteria based outlandish BS sentiment thats not the case.
* Good outside backs need good halfbacks and good go forward to distribute the ball to increase their opportunities and hence skills, so if having an Australian 7 and 6 and 10 are the best way for us to develop our outside backs then so be it. You can't have one without the other.

Overall, baseless hysteria. The fact is this - the development pathways at the Warriors need improving through an under 20's side, this has been accepted by current management. This will significantly increase the chances of young Kiwis and long term exponentiate the percentage of Kiwis playing for the Warriors.

 

[ozbash]

This will significantly increase the chances of young Kiwis and long term exponentiate the percentage of Kiwis playing for the Warriors.

agree, we lost a lot when we lost our prem league team.

 

[Iafeta]

Without a doubt.

In my eyes, that set us back a fair few years.

And the other key moment was when we looked at Pacifika, I really think we took our eye off the ball, and in this comp, as its shown, that'll set you back a few years.

The concept is a good one at a raw level when you think about it, especially if you can get synergies going that are good for both groups - but you need distinct management looking after each group individually and caring for their best interests. Watson took his eye off the ball due to the management structure imposed and it cost us badly.

 

[MKEB...]

Just a different opint of view. What says thathad the warriors developed a Kiwi only policy. And all Aussie teams had aussie only policies. That would Leave us with 25 players with Genuine First class experience.
Even if we had a policy with a New Zealand player only warriors side and aussie still allowed Kiwis to play for their clubs, all that means is that their are seven less kiwis playing for aussie clubs. How many Kiwis are currently playing in aussie?
Like you guys I remember the 80's when the Kiwis were lucky to win 1 game every four years. When we had at most 15 players in the Winfield Cup. Why would you want to take a step back.

 

[byrne_rovelli_fan82]

Short answer: NO
It's been said a thousand and one times that the Warriors don't owe anything to the kiwis whatsoever. They are about winning the compeition; the nrl competiton that is.

 

[Lossy]

I can see both points.

I am all for a team of Kiwis if it could be done immediately, with a full squad of first-graders ready to go. That's not likely in the short-term, or mid-term, and the team can't keep wearing the failure tag. One day the taint won't wash off.

We can go on all we want about being the major stakeholders, and we are damn important, but we aren't wholly supporting the club through gate takings and merchandise. The stakeholder is the owner, who shells out, and the sponsors who support the team. The fans are the crown jewels in that set and if we leave (regardless of our motivation) the internal upheavals continue.

The Warriors keep talking about becoming a development club, and that needs to be adhered to by them, as well as listened to by us. The key there is 'becoming', not 'being'. The difference is important; and that development doesn't mean exclusive development.

NZ is not a world unto it's own. We have to retain the ability to attract recruits as sometimes there will not be a player who is ready, right now, to step up to the required level. The aim should be to pick the best locals and try to get them there, but if you cut off the import option there is no plan B if plan A bites the big one. If the stop-gap turns into a winner, then great.

Regarding the sponsors, it is in our interests to have players who can be marketed well in Aussie when we play away too. Recruiting Aussie fans, and not just ex-pats is an important factor in being seen as a bankable team. A cluster of Aussie imports - ideally playing support to our own Kiwi stars, and aiding there progress sans reserve grade team - smooths the way.

If local players seeing imports taking their spots decide to jack it in and head to another club, then great for them if it means they get their chance and flood more kiwis into the comp'. If not, them's the breaks. Ideally I'd like them to get p*ssed off and show-up the newcomers, but if that isn't how they tick, so be it.

 

[Martli]

Yeah I could just see a team of only kiwis now. Struggling to keep the likes of Sonny Bill Williams, Roy Asotasi, Reuben Wiki, Jake Webster, Nigel Vagana, under the salary cap, having the entire squad away on the off-season for the tri-nations. f**k yeah, wicked idea keep the warriors for the kiwis only!

 

[Scott]

blah blah blah....

I want to follow a team that wins. if half the team are Aussies I really don't care, every side inthe NRL has a fair percentage of imports. unitl we start looking like the Roosters I really don't give a rat's arse.

That sums it up for me.

Deal with it ozbash.

 

[ozbash]

That sums it up for me.

Deal with it ozbash.

:lol: :lol: you,re a wanker scotty.

the others gave me crap but they did it constructively ( sh*t, some even agreed with my point of view:shock: ) ol snotty scotty comes along and sees an oportunity for a quickie and sfa else.

what sums what up scott, pray enlighten us

 

[byrne_rovelli_fan82]

:lol: :lol: you,re a wanker scotty.

the others gave me crap but they did it constructively ( sh*t, some even agreed with my point of view:shock: ) ol snotty scotty comes along and sees an oportunity for a quickie and sfa else.

what sums what up scott, pray enlighten us

\

Ozbash mate you're from the old school type of thinking. Absolutely nothing wrong with it; some of us like olc school but the truth is to keep up in the modern world you just have to move with the times. Perhaps, down the track your idea may come to forfillment but until then I think you'll just to move on from it.
If there are people that don't like the Warriors simply because' there are too many aussies' in the team, then perhaps they need to go find another nrl club which has a stack load of kiwis in them to support.
I don't believe a dedicated fan needs to be some one who only sees one point of view or only wants a certain 'nationality' in their sqaud.
Alot of us have mentioned about the indentiy thing for the Warriors and the country itself. But I must say, exactly how many kiwis are still living in NZ itself?
Fans associate their loyalties to a team for many reasons, either because they've got a favorite player, their friends go for that team, or you just feel a connection with that team.
Since when does nationality and a player's background have anything to do with why we support them or the club?

The Storm are based in Melb, but many of their fans also live in other cities or states around australia. do they kick up a fuss that there's kiwis over running melbourne or that a talented player like Kidwell is a kiwi?
Do Warriors fans only like Pricey because he's currently the side's captain?

How lopesided would the compeition be if the NRL had all the other 14 clubs stacked with just Aussies and the 1 NZ club had all it's kiwis. how crazy would that be? Would the competition be as it is today if this is what was to happen?

A Warriors player is a Warriors player. They can be from anywhere on this earth and I'd still suport them for the pure fact they are apart of my favorite club.

 

[Scott]

It's a business you plonker. If you want all your Bartercard favs in the team instead of Fein, Luck, McKinnon, Crockett etc etc then good luck.

They'd finish dead last for years and end up being kicked out.

We are developing plenty of future young kiwi stars. Ropati, Mannering, AhVan, Rapira etc etc.

Just my opinion!

 

[Iafeta]

Good point skinny.

The wife is Australian and she's more hardcore on the Warriors than I am.

Me personally, not from anywhere near Auckland that didn't stop me associating with the club when it came into the competition. Different strokes for different people. There won't be a time in the next 5-10 years, in my opinion, where an all Kiwi team can be afforded under the salary cap and be successfully on the field and commercially viable off the field. That's reality. Nothing more, nothing less. You have to look at the root cause of how to get to the desired land of being essentially an all Kiwi, or close to it, team. And that's improving coaching levels, and improving pathways through development squads. Even then it may not be achievable.

The club's purpose I'd imagine puts success ahead of player eligibility, but still, probably moreso than any other club, feels a keen interest in developing it's geographical advantages in terms of the population it can draw from. That's the reality of the matter. It's a professional club, trying to mix success and the growth of league in New Zealand.

The facts are these- Rovelli is a far better player than Leuluai, he's a better halfback than Hohaia, Fien is a better hooker than Hohaia, so is George Gatis in terms of being solid and dependable, Luck is a good defender who gets the job done better than most, Price is better than any props we have in Bartercard I'd dare say - these positions are all fundamentally key positions. For the likes of Mannering, Vatuvei, Ah Van to get the ball they need to develop their skills, their confidence, and their credibility to the Kiwi jersey they need these other players, regardless of nationality, assisting them. Thus, these players do assist the growth of New Zealand players.

 

[Brian McLennon]

As long as these young NZ players going to rival NRL clubs pledge their allegiance for the Kiwis then im for it. It will build our current depth base

 

[Dr Crane]

Brian McLennon...


John Lennons Scottish cousin?

 

[Brian McLennon]

No Ian
Kiwi Coach