Honest my ass !!!!!!!!!!

This message has been deleted by the author.

 

[Johnsy]

Honest John, what a joke this man makes me sick.
The tampa incident, The G G, and the children overboard saga. A leader of a country he is not.
Johnsy

 

[legend]

Johnsy, where would you like me to start with the Keating government and his personal misdemeanors? His piggery maybe?

The fact of the matter is every government, whether Liberal or Labour are always facing new scandals and outrages generated by a pathetic media hungry to sell a newspaper.

 

[Johnsy]

Legend, What I mean by this post is that any politician regardless of party, if he/she behaves in this manner it is unnaceptable. A leader regardless of political affiliations the beahviour displayed by this man is dispicable in the extreme. As a parent, husband and everyday joe, I find it disgusting. If you would like to try and deflect attention from his actions by bringing up another politicans actions you are wasting your time. I also believe that keatings actions were inexcusable. It is just not good enough when a person who is the elected leader of our country displays this beahviour. It makes me wonder just how contempt he has for australian citizens.
Johns

 

[Johnsy]

Here you go Ted.
Johnsy

 

[imported_Lord Ted]

Thanks Johnsy,
I think I put a rave on here one other time about how the grub got the "honest John" tag.
Suffice to say it was stated sarcastically(following the 83 election) and remains a fallacy to this day and toHowards dying day.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

It is pretty sad. This is above all the party alligences, i really think that they should be left at the door in this situation. Both parties have a shocking record in terms of misleading the people. Its more than that, its the fact that people in power have abused their positions, lied to the people that for f sake they represent.

2 issues. The Governor General Issue and the boat people one. People have obviously lied in both situations. The fact that Hollingworth still has a job is a sham. He was exposed as a hideous member of the 'old boys club' and the sweep it under the club firm. This guy should be out. He is almost as bad as the people who commited these acts. Yeh, im not even 20 yet, but to see some of the shocking things that have gone on to people around my age and younger is terrible. Kids and more particuarly teenagershave to go through enough difficult choices and situations as they grow up. To allow a practice such as this just adds to the troubles of many kids as they get on. Australia has the highest suicide rate in the WORLD, and people always rant on about how easy it is for kids these days. I hope people consider the future, and dream of a childhood that they wish they had. Damn, nothing is ideal, but to allow cowards like Hollingworth to continue is terrible. Alot of children who go onto commit hideous crimes and live miserable lifes were abused in one form of another. And yes, if u want my opinion, i thinkit still goes on today. So to allow Hollingworth to continue is just encouraging those to think that they can get away with it.

Boat people. The way Howard has answered these questions leads me to believe that he has lied. He has been contradicted, and him and Ruddock clearly seem to have been caught out. But its more than 'party lies', its the fact that the most senior position in Australia was used to lie. Blantantly lie. I doubt whether the whole truth will come out, mainly because people will act to ensure the truth is not revealed. Its the same situation with Keating and the piggerys he had. Liars. Its the same with Bill Clinton and the intern. Who the hell can you trust anymore? Definitely not politicians. Definitely not governments. As one person said, governments are not the solution to the problem, they are the problem.

Moffo.

 

[Willow]

Well there you go Moffo....at last you agree with me that community based order is the only way to go.
We could start with a thorough purge of all politicians and governments who are creating the chaos.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

The only truely honest politician I can think of was John Hewson, the man who lost the unloseable election by telling us how he was going to bring in a new tax that would be good for us in the long run.
There is an old adage that countries get the type of Governments they deserve, and we deserve a bunch of lieing bastards because we hate to face up to the hard truths.
Paul Keating used to flirt with honesty now and again 'Banana Republic, recession we had to have etc) and he was despised for shoving our noses into reality when we'd much rather be watching sports and dreaming about early retirement.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Well, i dunno how well community based order will go. U would get people shooting each other up willy nilly. If they had the opportunity, there are a hell of a lot of people throughout the world who would just go up and unload a package of bullets on people that they didn't like. I remember having such a similar argument back in yr12 at school, with some people arguing for 'controlled chaos'. I labelled it anarchy. Im still not convinced it would be a lot different. Eventually u may get back to a system of organised 'chaos', but for quite a while u would have huge troubles with murder and crime.

Realistically, any system has problems. A world with different religions,cultures and viewpoints will always have problems. Lets just make everyone a Jehovahs Witness

Moffo.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

We only HAD to have a recession because of stupid labor policies. Interest rates at 17%, Inflation at over 5%, Unemployment at 11% and a high CAD were all the result of crazy policy. Linking wage growth to the CPI was a prime example of this stupidity.

And its hard to blame the global economy on such problems. Liberal gov't at the moment has to detail with Japan and most of Asia in a recession, as well as the US in a major slump. But still, we have Inflation at about 3%, Unemployment at 7-8%,an impressively low CADand Interest rates at their lowest for 30years. Sure the world went through a global slowdown in the early 90s, but how come Liberal could deal with it when Labor could not?

Moffo.

 

[El Duque]

What's the big deal?

Isn't politics aboutwho can spin the best bullshit?

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

Moffo,
The same argument, but in mirror reverse, is used in America and England to say that the conservative side of politics were unable to manage the economy (Bush and Thatcher) while the less conservative side (Clinton and Blair) presided over minor economic miracles.
The answer to the argument in all three countries is 'luck of the draw.'
You could also make a very good argument that the majority of the 'success' of the present Liberal government in Australia is due to the hard decisions taken by Paul Keating when he put us into the recession 'we had to have' to bring down interest rates and inflation.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

True Roopy, some of it is luck of the draw. My point is that Labor was the group who put Australia in that place in the first place. From what I understand, the MAIN cause of high inflation,unemployment etc etc was the use of the Industrial Relations where they tagged wages growth to CPI increases. A crazy policy that led to huge inflation, reduction of jobs, businesses going arse up and all the associated consequences...

As El Duque said, it is also who can spin the best shit!

Moffo.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

"the MAIN cause of high inflation,unemployment etc etc was the use of the Industrial Relations where they tagged wages growth to CPI increases. A crazy policy that led to huge inflation, reduction of jobs, businesses going arse up and all the associated consequences..."

As Winston Churchill once said, "history is written by the victors." That is the line the Liberal spin doctors would have you believe, but I seem to remember that same policy being reponsible for taking us from being the country with the highest level of industrial disputes, and thereby loss of production, to one of the countries with the lowest levels of industrial disputes. That was actually one of the biggest changes in the Australian work environment in my lifetime, and all for the better.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Roopy, i know im looking at this from a different perspective to you, so i guess we have to take that into account.

A lack of Industrial Disputes under that policy?? Im not real sure, how about when all the businesses collapsed?? How about all the wharfie disuputes?? They were all major issues wern't they at the time? I only remember the system being changed in maybe the third of fourth accord, when the link between CPI and wages was removed. Increasing wages is all relative. It doesnt necessarily make people happy, if there wages go up by 10% and inflation goes up by 10%, then they dont exactly gain anything. I though this would cause more angst than happiness. Instead, under the 96 legislation, wage increaseswere more closely (not exactly, but more closely) linked to productivity increases. I think its a more efficient system, and has helped to remove the unions to some extent, which were the root of a lot of strikes. Its direct negotiation between workers and their employers. Sure, it hasn't spread across the whole nation yet, but for people who aren't familar/skeptical with it, i think its worth a read. To me it makes sense, but thats just me. Its a more logical progression, u increase your productivity, management takes notice, u negotiate, u get an increase. End result, it helps businesses and the individual who is working hard.

Moffo.

 

[Willow]

MFC:
"U would get people shooting each other up willy nilly"
Why? I mean, how do we know that?
There seems to be this pre-conceived idea that we need government to lead us by the nose and occasionally rub it in shit when we've been naughty.
The notion that once we shed the shackles of authority, people will immediatelytake up arms and start shooting each other is absurd.

In order to further explain my point, lets look at what we actually have gained by having a government and institutions of authority.
Firstly, we get a bunch of cowardly liars who will tell anything to the public just to save their own skins.
Currently in Australia, we are the most taxed people in history. This is a from a document released by the Bureau of Statistics last December.
Also, we have banks and other financial institutions who are more powerful than ever before. You can throw Telstra in there as well and internationally, you can look at multi-nationals like General Electric who are powerful beyond belief. These organisations are responsible for more death and misery than at anytime before in any century or in any civilisation.
Its goes without saying that government and business work hand in hand.

The people who run the show, the liars, consider people to be cattle. We are bought and sold and the traders make money out of us every day.

For example, I got a statement from the institution where my supernannuation is paid.
It says that since October I have paid some $200 in tax and about $260 in administration fees. It also says that my 'investment' has earned me a little over $400 in interest. It doesnt take Einstein to work out that government and banks are ripping me off (and millions of others) for about $200 bucks per year and giving NOTHING back in return.
Superannuation is compulsory and was set up by governments to make money for big business...simple.
Ofcourse there are dozens of other examples.

Currently, we have asituation where the community wealth is being fleeced and the cream is going to the worst scum imagineable.
In short, we can do without them.

 

[imported_Lord Ted]

An abbreviated version of some interesting history you probably won't find in the text books.
The inflation spiral really took off in Australia in the early to mid 70s.At that stage there was a general worldwide inflationary trend.
It was aided and abetted in Australia by both gov't policy and personal ambition.
The gov't policy was the introduction of Medibank(universal free health) and free education.These were Whitlam initiatives on the basis of equity and access.They were also costly.
Personal ambition.Bob Hawke was the then President of the ACTU.Due to the inflation factor he was pushing for wage rises,strikes were aplenty and wages continued to rise.
Whitlam was furious at this ongoing pressure by Hawke,becuase Whitlam argued that the wage rises were too extreme and inflationary.Whitlam reckoned that some of the free health and education should have been factored in to the wage claim.Whitlam accused Hawke of promoting himself rather than being interested in the welfare of the country and the re-election of a Labor gov't.
BTW Moff it's time to come off this crap about labor policies in the 80s being the sole cause of the early 90s recession.In fact it was a number of things that caused the recession we had to have.In 1983 Australia had unemployment of about 12% and interest rates approx the same,and that was after 8 years of the libs in power.In fact the grub was the then treasurer and told the country a very big porky re the deficit(he in fact admitted he knew the deficit was much larger than stated because he had been told,by treasury a few days prior to the 83 election,sound familiar,hence the nickname "honest John").
I realise this is a simplistic explaination of how inflation got out of control,in fact it is more of a behind the scenes political relationship between Whitlam and Hawke.
Whitlam visionary.
Hawke personal aggrandisement.
The feelings of dislike that Whitlam had for Hawke madethe Hawke Keating relationship look like a lovers tiff.
True story folks.Told to me by Edward Gough Whitlam.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I have no doubt we can do without them! That was the point of my original spiel...

But im sure as u know coming from West Sydney and all (the heart of Sydney

),there are a lot of people who would without fear take up arms if they had the chance. The only thing that stops so many more shootouts from occuring in West Sydney is the repercussions. Crime is hardly contained at times, even with authority and all the repercussions and penalties in place.

There is an interesting theory on why people respect authority. There are3 main ideas, one is through fear of repercussions, one is through cultural traditions and practicesand one is through wanting to maintain a good standing and name within society. Lets be realistic here, there are a lot of people who could create absolute chaos in society. You don't think that some people wouldn't take the chance at going wild if there was no central authority? Trying to make themselves supreme above all others?? Its only a natural response. There will always be self-serving people. As i think we argued in a previous discussion, if we lived in a truly educated world where everyone had a common minimum level of education, than yes, it may work. But without that, i dont think it would have much of a shot, particularly in todays society....

Moffo.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Ted mate, we have had all this argument before. Its what i said at the start, i think the problem with government extends beyond Party preferences. I have zero preference for either party, I have just been taught certain things about politics that make me suggest that Labor made some terrible decisions in the past. Most people in here would have volumes more experience than me in the area. The truth is that there are grubs on both sides. I still believe that the crazy IR policy of the 80s was a major contributor to the recession. Maybe not the only one, but i have never seen such a thickheaded policy quite like that one.That policy alone affected inflation, unemployment, export earnings, Interest rates and so many other things in a big way.

Most pollies are grubs who have told lies. Thats why i think the whole system needs a revamp. I know i dont want to live in this world for the next 70 years with a corrupt bunch of bums like we have at the moment.

Moffo.