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If you hate Morts...

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,300
...it's time to start hating Kearney too:

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...thic-shows-touch-of-cronk-20110115-19rud.html


Mortimer's work ethic shows touch of Cronk

Adrian Proszenko

January 16, 2011
PARRAMATTA coach Stephen Kearney looks at Daniel Mortimer and sees a lot of Cooper Cronk.

''I don't want to put pressure on him [by making the comparison], but he's got a wonderful work ethic, Daniel,'' Kearney told The Sun-Herald.

''When I first came across Cooper in Melbourne, he was very similar in the sense that it was certainly his greatest asset - he'd do whatever he could to make himself better.

''I see a lot of that in Daniel also.

''He's one of the frontrunners when we're running up hills or around the track - he gives it everything he can.

''Football teams need guys like that. Playing in the positions they do, they're going to see a fair bit of traffic from bigger guys, the wide-running forwards.

''That's one thing that strikes me with Daniel. He's not afraid to get his body in front, which is a wonderful asset to have.''

Initially, the differences appear to outweigh the similarities. Melbourne halfback Cronk, a Queensland and Australian representative, is one of the game's best players. Mortimer, meanwhile, is looking to re-establish himself after a tough second year in the grade.

But, indeed, they have plenty in common. Neither is the most natural playmaker, yet both have worked hard to maximise their talent. They're also pint-sized and fearless.

Mortimer and Jeff Robson will share the halves duties for the Eels after they missed out on Canberra recruit Matt Orford.

''We have two boys there and we have put a lot of time and energy into how they'll operate and benefit the team, the way we'll play, and our structure will be an asset for them,'' Kearney said.

''We made that decision early [to stick with them] and I pulled them both aside to make them well aware of that.

''We have a lot of confidence and faith in them and obviously the pressure doesn't all lie at their feet.

''The whole squad will be helping to make their job easier, too. They just need to play their part in what we're trying to achieve."

A bit of a re-hash of last week's story but he looks like he's settled on his halves. I know Tom Humble's dad posts here and he won't be happy.
 

Tizzun

Juniors
Messages
585
I don't blame Kearney for making this descision, we have limited halves options. However us liking Kearney depends on how he handles Morts if he plays as bad as last year, how many weeks will he give Morts before he gives him the chop.
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,300
It actually looks like he's not expecting so much from Morts - just like how Bennett uses Hornby and Soward.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,439
First of all, nobody hates Daniel Mortimer. They just hate the form he displayed last year.
Secondly, if he and Robson fire this year, then problem solved. That would be great. Particularly Robson - I really like Robson.
Thirdly, if Mortimer is dreadful again this year (as he was last year) and the coach does not drop him, then I will be extremely disappointed in the coach, and criticism will need to be levelled at him. As it stands, I`m more disappointed in Daniel Anderson`s persistence with Mortimer than I am with Mortimer himself - I mean it`s not as if Mortimer went out and just didn`t try. He tried his guts out. Any normal coach would have saved him from humiliation by dropping him much sooner.
And, finally, yes, I hope Tom Humble gets a decent crack at the five-eight spot this year because I think he`s got more talent in his little finger than Mortimer will ever have. I think he has far more to offer the team.
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,300
As it stands, I`m more disappointed in Daniel Anderson`s persistence with Mortimer than I am with Mortimer himself - I mean it`s not as if Mortimer went out and just didn`t try. He tried his guts out. Any normal coach would have saved him from humiliation by dropping him much sooner.

I agree.

Plenty of young players have struggled early in their careers and been rejuvenated by a spell in the lower grades.

But with Anderson persisting with Mortimer, and Kearney looking like giving him first crack this year, I'd suggest there's something in Mortimer that those closest to them can see. Something the rest of us can't see (but saw in 2009).

Mortimer was better in attack than Robson last year (not saying much) but what matters is how he will go this year. The coaching staff can see his potential better than we can, and Mortimer's sh*t 2010 could do wonders for him through the rest of his career. Or it could have ruined him as well.

We'll find out this year I guess, but at his age and size there's plenty of improvement left in Mortimer.
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,300
On the Mortimer - Cronk comparison, have a look at how ordinary Cooper was in attack at the start of his career. Keep in mind that Cronk made his debut in the year he turned 21. That's how old Mortimer is this year. Cronk's first full season was in 2005 (when he turned 22 - Mortimer's age next year) and his attacking stats were similar to Mortimer's in his first full season (this year):

Cronk
Year LB LBA TA Games

2004..5....3...3...13 (21 y.o)
2005.5....2...6..20
2006.11..16..18..27
2007.10..10..24..25
2008..5...19..37..28
2009..9...12..13..27
2010..3...12..18..21

Mortimer
Year LB LBA TA Games

2009.12....2...7...18 (20 y.o)
2010.3....3...7...21

*First full season (20+ games) in bold. Note Mortimer made his debut and played his first full season a year younger than Cronk.

Anyway, Cronk's third season was much better than his second so here's hoping for a similar improvement from Mortimer.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
It actually looks like he's not expecting so much from Morts - just like how Bennett uses Hornby and Soward.

Morts doesn't have the skills of Hornby or Soward. They are not world beaters, but they are very under-rated. Soward is not overly creative. But he has a solid passing game, a terrific long and short kicking game, and can get the ball to the right player at the right time. Hornby is a smart player with great vision, and knows how to direct a side around. Morts doesn't have the qualities of either from what we've seen of him in first grade.

And Poupou, don't bring up stats... They never tell the full story especially with halfbacks. Cronk was just used as a utilty in 2005 playing mainly between dummy half and lock forward.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Messages
92,300
Morts doesn't have the skills of Hornby or Soward. They are not world beaters, but they are very under-rated. Soward is not overly creative. But he has a solid passing game, a terrific long and short kicking game, and can get the ball to the right player at the right time. Hornby is a smart player with great vision, and knows how to direct a side around. Morts doesn't have the qualities of either from what we've seen of him in first grade.

He's only played a season and a half. The mental and technical side of the game comes with time. Soward was woeful at Mortimer's age.

And Poupou, don't bring up stats...

Yeah it sucks to be able to support an argument. :roll:

They never tell the full story especially with halfbacks.

They tell a huge part of the story, especially with the kinds of stats they keep these days. That's why the best players have the best stats and the worst players have hopeless stats.

Did you know that every statistic corresponds to something that happened on the field? True story.

Cronk was just used as a utilty in 2005 playing mainly between dummy half and lock forward.

Wrong again. Cameron Smith played hooker in all but 3 games that year (Nathan Friend played the other 3) and Smith plays 80 minutes every week (actually 76.9 minutes). Cronk started 9 games at five-eighth that year (out of 20 appearances). When he came off the bench he played five-eighth, with Scott Hill shifting to lock.

See? Stats. They allow us to call bullsh*t when people make sh*t up. No wonder you don't like them.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,300
How good was Soward at Mortimer's age? Well we know he was a much better kicker (even the stats tell us that), which allowed him to survive being so ordinary long enough to become a first grader.

But ordinary he most definitely was. Soward didn't debut until the year he turned 21, a year older than Mortimer, and he did very little until his third season (the year he turned 23 - Mortimer's age in 2012):

Soward
Year LB LBA TA Games

2005..0....0...3....7 (21 y.o)
2006..3....2...7...14
2007.10...5..16...15
2008..6....7..17...19
2009.16..19..27...26
2010.11...6..13...26

Mortimer
Year LB LBA TA Games

2009.12....2...7...18 (20 y.o)
2010..3....3...7....21

As you can see, Soward'd ability to kick kept him in the game until he was old enough to learn the ropes as a playmaker, strengthening calls for a reintroduction of a strong second-tier comp, and showing how premature it is to write Mortimer off at his age.

It wasn't until Soward had played over 50 games (and turned 25 years old) that he made double digits in LBAs (the true measure of a playmaker), and he's only done that once in his 6 seasons (2009). Last year was the first time he ever had to play more than 20 games in a season.

Personally I think it would be awesome for Mortimer to be able to come off the bench for a season, like Cronk, or have the luxury of being dropped when the pressure gets too much, like Soward. But Parra lacks experienced options in the halves which is why him and Robson are it at the moment.

Casey McGuire spent half a season (including the finals) at halfback for the Broncos in 2004 so he's at least an option, but unlike 2004 he won't have Darren Lockyer running the show.

Neither McGuire nor Robson are good enough to be the primary playmaker and Mortimer hasn't yet shown he can be either. I guess we'll play a structured, grindy style in 2011 and rely on Hayne for brilliance.

Unless, please God, Mortimer emerges as a player capable of making things happen. He has so far shown glimpses, but we need more than that from him.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
He's only played a season and a half. The mental and technical side of the game comes with time. Soward was woeful at Mortimer's age.



Yeah it sucks to be able to support an argument. :roll:



They tell a huge part of the story, especially with the kinds of stats they keep these days. That's why the best players have the best stats and the worst players have hopeless stats.

Did you know that every statistic corresponds to something that happened on the field? True story.



Wrong again. Cameron Smith played hooker in all but 3 games that year (Nathan Friend played the other 3) and Smith plays 80 minutes every week (actually 76.9 minutes). Cronk started 9 games at five-eighth that year (out of 20 appearances). When he came off the bench he played five-eighth, with Scott Hill shifting to lock.

See? Stats. They allow us to call bullsh*t when people make sh*t up. No wonder you don't like them.

I prefer to support my arguments using observations rather than stats. I don't even know where you're pulling your stats from. Where is your source? Stats are useless unless their verified.

Soward always had talent from the get go. You could tell he had playmaking ability. He was inconsistent a lot of the time which was why he was in and out of first grade for a couple of years. But you could always see he had the ability and ball skills to be a great playmaker. He just couldn't show them every week. Now he can, due to being older and wiser and playing behind a solid pack.

Morts has ticker, and certain skills and attributes which mean he could become a handy first grader at some level. But you need more than ticker to become a great half. For every Cooper Cronk there's 10 Jeff Robsons. Guys with a great attitude who work hard, but simply don't have the natural ability to become anything other than average first graders at best. I think Morts falls into this category. He has a great heart, but in comparison to other young halves running around he seems well behind in natural ability when it comes to his vision, and his passing and kicking game. And those are essential qualities to being a first grade worthy half or 5'8th. He does a very good running game though, something ironically our last young halfback to come through the grades, Tim Smith, was missing from his game. But he had all the rest.
 

Mr Angry

Not a Referee
Messages
51,816
If you hate Morts...you understand his head is not large so he could never lead....................Not tall either, never lead.



hehe
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,300
I prefer to support my arguments using observations rather than stats.

Actually your observations inform your arguments rather than supporting them.

They don't support your arguments because they are subjective and anybody could just disagree with them.

Stats are at least objective and therefore useful for supporting a line of argument.

I don't even know where you're pulling your stats from. Where is your source?

http://www.nrlstats.com/

Soward always had talent from the get go.

That's easy to say in hindsight.

You could tell he had playmaking ability.

Because he showed it in juniors, just like Mortimer. But Soward was famous for kicking a sh*tload of goals in the Roosters' junior teams.

Plus he played juniors as long as he could, which back then included a full season of under 21s.

Mortimer's last foray into junior footy was 9 games in the NYC (under 20s) where he was excellent as a playmaker (10 LBA, 16 TA). Manly's Kieran Foran had 11 LBA and 16 TA in 12 games.

He was inconsistent a lot of the time which was why he was in and out of first grade for a couple of years.

But if he was forced to play a full season in first grade we wouldn't be saying he was inconsistent, we would be saying he was sh*t.

Mortimer showed flashes of brilliance this year too but with his confidence down he was mostly ineffective.

But you could always see he had the ability and ball skills to be a great playmaker.

Except he's not a "great playmaker", he's a good one. His kicking game certainly helps.

He just couldn't show them every week. Now he can, due to being older and wiser and playing behind a solid pack.

Once again, you make great predictions in hindsight.

Morts has ticker, and certain skills and attributes which mean he could become a handy first grader at some level. But you need more than ticker to become a great half.

Why does he need to be a great half? Isn't it enough that he becomes a good first grader? He doesn't need to play at $500k when he's only getting paid $200k, plus he turns 22 mid season.

For every Cooper Cronk there's 10 Jeff Robsons.

That's eleven blokes in their late 20s. Aren't we talking about a 21 year old kid?

Guys with a great attitude who work hard, but simply don't have the natural ability to become anything other than average first graders at best.

Prior to 2009 Jeff Robson had played 6 first grade games. He turned 27 a couple of months after his first ever try assist in first grade.

I think Morts falls into this category.

Mortimer debuted at 19 and will have already played 50 first grade games before age 22. And you compare him to Robson?

He has a great heart, but in comparison to other young halves running around he seems well behind in natural ability when it comes to his vision, and his passing and kicking game.

"Other young halves"?

There's Mitchell Pearce, who's a lot bigger and more experienced, and he gets paid a lot more.

Sandow, who has mad skillz but whose second season (2009) was also pretty average. He also misses a lot more tackles than Mortimer. Hell, he misses more tackles than anybody.

Hodkinson who debuted (this year) 2 years older than Morts was on his debut. He's also a lot bigger and gets paid a lot more and apart from his long kicking and his defence is an ordinary playmaker.

Foran who is younger than Morts, but also very average so far. On the plus side, he's big and he defends well. Has a decent short kicking game but nothing special taking the ball to the line.

The young Manly halves benefitted from a similar gameplan to St George's - if the defence is moving up just shovel it out to the back-rowers/fullback. Hopefully Kearney sets up a similar system for us but it requires Hayne staying out of first receiver.

There's also Luke Walsh, who's 24 this year so not really 'young' for a footballer, but showed nothing until he produced a short kicking game in 2010 that was only as good as its chase. Also isn't relied on to be the primary playmaker at Penrith (Luke Lewis is the man there).

Josh McCrone is also 24 this year and very f**king average. Good enough to be secondary playmaker at a club that made the finals in his rookie year (2010). Kind of like Mortimer in '09, who was younger, played less games and made more line-breaks.

Jarrod Mullen (also 24 this year), who had his first full season in first grade in 2008, aged 21 (he played 35 games over 3 seasons from '05-'07). Definitely better than Morts at 21, though also had more experience and size. Not a world-beater but certainly good enough. One of those early bloomers (debuted at 18) who seems to have peaked at 21.

Robert Lui can definitely play and is still only 20. But once again, he's very big for a halfback (90+ kg) which allows him to be more effective at a younger age. Just like many of the young halves on this list.

Kris Keating. Enough said. Bigger and faster than Morts, and played better this year but he's also older (23 this year) and has never shown anything more than a running game. They were our NYC halves in '08 and Morts was our primary playmaker - Keating was called up to first grade because he was physically ready whereas Mortimer wasn't.

Wade Graham. Very young (21 this year) and also a midget like Morts. Played a handful of first grade games at five-eighth in his rookie year like Morts (though Graham was only 18). Wasn't as effective as Morts. Had a better second season than Morts but had Walsh as the other half (better than Robson), and also had Luke Lewis running the show inside the 20. Had a poor third season but that's because Travis Burns arrived and took his spot.

Finally there's Ben Barba, who has a great running game but his passing, kicking and organising mean he's shifting to fullback next year. Prior to 2010 he'd only played 8 first grade games and even in NYC (where he mostly wore 6) he wasn't noted for his kicking or passing game.

And those are essential qualities to being a first grade worthy half or 5'8th.

I agree passing and vision are essential in a primary playmaker, and kicking is essential in all halves. I think Mortimer has those skills. He showed them consistently in juniors and he's shown glimpses of them in first grade. What's held him back from being consistently effective is lack of size and lack of experience.

He does a very good running game though, something ironically our last young halfback to come through the grades, Tim Smith, was missing from his game. But he had all the rest.

True. But Smith also had size and a great kicking game. His lack of a running game allowed him to sit back and catch-and-pass a lot of the time, whereas Mortimer made his name running the ball (12 linebreaks in 2009) so obviously would feel pressured to do what he does best.

Ironically, he made more LBAs than linebreaks (and loads more try assists) in NYC where he was the primary playmaker.
 
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