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If you hate Morts...

Joshuatheeel

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Staff member
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20,193
well if morts reminds him of cronk, i hope mitchel reminds him of cameron smith


I think people forget that Cronk was a no-body in 2005. He would have struggled to get a NRL contract if he needed one at the end of 2005. If I posted on here in 2005 Cronk was going to be a Aust halfback, people would have laughed at me!!!!
 

Joshuatheeel

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20,193
Like the Dragons - Soward and Hornby never get the ball unless they have passing options either side. Hayne staying out of first receiver would be a good start.


With some good coaching I think our 1,6 and 7 have the same potential as the dragons. Soward has a good long kicking game, but Hayne's kicking game is just as long. I assume Hanye never used his kicking game in the juniors and it has only been the last 2-3 years he has started to be a kicker in general play. With some expereicne and the right coaching he could have a very good kicking game.

Horrby is good but nothing special, he knows his role and distributes the ball when required. Plus can executed structured plays.

Boyd is more a running back, but has been invloved in so9me of the dragons structured plays.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
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19,065
I think people forget that Cronk was a no-body in 2005. He would have struggled to get a NRL contract if he needed one at the end of 2005. If I posted on here in 2005 Cronk was going to be a Aust halfback, people would have laughed at me!!!!

I don't think anyone forgets that. It's moreso a case of being realistic and knowing that not there will be very few young players who will become great halves through hard work rather than natural ability, Cronk being one of the exceptions to the norm. So just because Cronk was able too, doesn't mean Morts will do the same.
 

Joshuatheeel

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I don't think anyone forgets that. It's moreso a case of being realistic and knowing that not there will be very few young players who will become great halves through hard work rather than natural ability, Cronk being one of the exceptions to the norm. So just because Cronk was able too, doesn't mean Morts will do the same.


Yep totally agree with what you saying. And agree Mortimer was pretty bad last year and I am unsure what his best position is. But I also think Mortimer was thrown into the deep end last end, and was always going to drown.
Not much effort was made last year by Anderson to help Mortimer in defence. And whiloe I can't be sure, I reckon Andersons lack of ability to get some structured attack in our play really disadvantaged Mortimer. Last year like opur last tackle ooption was to give it to Hayne. I reckon Mortimer will go alright if our side plays some strucutre football like the storm and dragons
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,395
I don't think anyone forgets that. It's moreso a case of being realistic and knowing that not there will be very few young players who will become great halves through hard work rather than natural ability, Cronk being one of the exceptions to the norm. So just because Cronk was able too, doesn't mean Morts will do the same.

Morts does have natural ability. He made his first grade debut at 19 FFS. He carved up in the NYC.

I think you only remember him at his worst. He's not even 22 years old yet.

And don't keep going on about 'great' halves. He's on peanuts compared to the other halves running around. We shouldn't be expecting greatness from him. On that money he only needs to be a first grader, which could be as early as this year.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
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19,065
Yep totally agree with what you saying. And agree Mortimer was pretty bad last year and I am unsure what his best position is. But I also think Mortimer was thrown into the deep end last end, and was always going to drown.
Not much effort was made last year by Anderson to help Mortimer in defence. And whiloe I can't be sure, I reckon Andersons lack of ability to get some structured attack in our play really disadvantaged Mortimer. Last year like opur last tackle ooption was to give it to Hayne. I reckon Mortimer will go alright if our side plays some strucutre football like the storm and dragons

I don't think we can play structured attack if we don't have the halves and hooker to execute that kind of style though. Obviously we have to have some structure, but we need game plans that suit our players strengths rather than attempt to copy the Dragons and Storm. We cannot play ad lib like '09 either, we've lost all our offloaders. I think we could perform if we find the right balance between the two though. If the forwards can dominate and get quick play the balls we have some good players who can hit holes, and we have the brilliance of Jarryd Hayne. Hayne is at his best playing in an ad lib style because he's so unpredictable, and we're going to need that if we're a chance of succeeding next season.
 

Eels Dude

Coach
Messages
19,065
Morts does have natural ability. He made his first grade debut at 19 FFS. He carved up in the NYC.

I think you only remember him at his worst. He's not even 22 years old yet.

And don't keep going on about 'great' halves. He's on peanuts compared to the other halves running around. We shouldn't be expecting greatness from him. On that money he only needs to be a first grader, which could be as early as this year.

He has a lot of ability, but very little as a playmaker and that's the role he's being required to perform. He didn't carve it up in the NYC, most that have watched a lot of him in the junior grades agree he probably got the call up far too soon. And don't bring up stats again, we've been through that I'm not interested and will just ignore them so it's not worth wasting your time

DA was pretty much forced to promote him to first grade, after Brett Finch walked out on the club, and both members of our makeshift halves combination in Feleti Mateo and Kris Keating both suffered long term injuries in the same game.

What he did do is fit into a side that was on a hot streak, and offered excellent support play and basic ball skills. But he struggled last year when expected to play more of a creative role and traditonal playmaking role of a 5'8th or halfback, which is why a lot of people are treading cautiously with him.
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,395
I don't think we can play structured attack if we don't have the halves and hooker to execute that kind of style though. Obviously we have to have some structure, but we need game plans that suit our players strengths rather than attempt to copy the Dragons and Storm. We cannot play ad lib like '09 either, we've lost all our offloaders. I think we could perform if we find the right balance between the two though. If the forwards can dominate and get quick play the balls we have some good players who can hit holes, and we have the brilliance of Jarryd Hayne. Hayne is at his best playing in an ad lib style because he's so unpredictable, and we're going to need that if we're a chance of succeeding next season.

I think there needs to be structure around our halves - catch, pass, catch, pass, and grubber in-goal on the 5th.

Then it's all about who stands where on which tackle, who supports who, and then you can just layer Hayne's ad-lib onto that, but only after x tackle, and only in y part of the field, for example.

He has a lot of ability, but very little as a playmaker and that's the role he's being required to perform.

He hasn't shown much ability to pull defenders out of position for his runners but the fact is he's elusive so that part of the game will open up for him with experience.

He didn't carve it up in the NYC, most that have watched a lot of him in the junior grades agree he probably got the call up far too soon.

He certainly did carve up in NYC. He didn't make loads of breaks like Kris Keating (which is why Keating was called up a year earlier than him) but he did put more runners through gaps, and he did put on more tries with the boot.

Of course he wasn't physically ready, he probably still isn't. He's a tiny little bloke but history's full of tiny little blokes who eventually became good first grade halves once they got enough experience and physical strength but that's generally not until their mid-20s.

Matt Orford didn't play his first full season until he was 23. Morts will be in his 4th season by then.

And don't bring up stats again, we've been through that I'm not interested and will just ignore them so it's not worth wasting your time

You're not interested because they show your ignorance. You just make sh*t up and call it facts which is how footy fans have been doing it for 100 years.

But there are numbers now mate. They prove some points and disprove others. Hide behind your 'observations' all you want mate but if you reckon you observed something then there's probably a stat for it and we can see how much attention you're really paying.

DA was pretty much forced to promote him to first grade, after Brett Finch walked out on the club, and both members of our makeshift halves combination in Feleti Mateo and Kris Keating both suffered long term injuries in the same game.

Agreed. But he's shown so much ability that Anderson stuck with him all year, and Kearney seems confident in him for this year.

What he did do is fit into a side that was on a hot streak, and offered excellent support play and basic ball skills. But he struggled last year when expected to play more of a creative role and traditonal playmaking role of a 5'8th or halfback, which is why a lot of people are treading cautiously with him.

So maybe he needs to be used differently until his strength and experience catch up to his heart and talent. Don't just f**king write him off. Jamie Soward would've gone sh*t in our team last year too. Jeff Robson was a lot worse than Morts as well (though he was once again one of the top defensive halves in the NRL).

Morts just looks worse when he's ineffective because he gets rag-dolled. But that should change with time.
 

guruminga

Juniors
Messages
567
I'm actually enjoying this joust. This is what good forums are all about. It's a good articulate argument, not too personal, but still colourful. I reckon I'm even learning something.

Cheers Eels Dude and Poupou, keep it up.

It's a good fight, but at this point I reckon Poupou is ahead on points. Ha ha

G
 

Poupou Escobar

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Messages
92,395
stats can lie

How can they mate, they're just numbers.

They can be interpreted incorrectly but by themselves they're just a numeric representation of the frequency with which a particular event has occurred.

They're great for generating discussion, and excellent for supporting a line of argument. They're certainly better than a bunch of boofheads sitting around and saying "He can't tackle" or "He's a great playmaker" with nothing to support their arguments.

As I've already said, if stats were pointless then coaches and scouts wouldn't keep them. The fact remains that the best players have the best stats and the poorest stats belong to the worst players. Do you think that's a coincidence?
 

Twizzle

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154,070
quiet easily

some one in the cricket forum who happens to be a stats worshiper said that Siddle had a higher batting average than Punter in the ashes series

does that make him a better batsman ?

should we be batting Siddle at 3 and Punter at 10 ?

according to his stats we should have
 

SDM

First Grade
Messages
7,600
quiet easily

some one in the cricket forum who happens to be a stats worshiper said that Siddle had a higher batting average than Punter in the ashes series

does that make him a better batsman ?

should we be batting Siddle at 3 and Punter at 10 ?

according to his stats we should have

The stat is correct. Interpretation is not.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Messages
92,395
quiet easily

some one in the cricket forum who happens to be a stats worshiper said that Siddle had a higher batting average than Punter in the ashes series

does that make him a better batsman ?

No it means he performed better in the Ashes series.

should we be batting Siddle at 3 and Punter at 10 ?

If Siddle were to keep outperforming Punter (I'm sorry I don't follow cricket so I don't know if Siddle's a flash in the pan or an up-and-comer or what) then there's a very good case for saying he is a better batsman.

If Siddle had better stats than Ponting game after game and series after series, then you would have to rethink who is the better batsman. But the way you've framed your question leads me to believe that Ponting is an undisputably better batsman than Siddle, and either he had a poor series (which I know is true because I heard it on the news) or Siddle performed above expectations, or some combination of the two.

according to his stats we should have

No, according to poor analysis of his stats we should have.

But proper interpretation of those stats would tell you that one Ashes series isn't a large enough data sample to make a proper assessment of the relative quality of two cricket players.

Likewise with league players. A handful of games, or even half a season isn't long enough to determine whether a player is playing above himself (exceptional form) or has genuine quality.

This is why you always hear dopey footy fans complaining about coaches and selectors 'ignoring form' and picking players 'based on their name'.

Because big name players have big names for a reason; they have proven their quality, and any poor form is just that - poor form, which could be turned around as soon as the next game.

Look at Greg Inglis. Hasn't excelled at club level since 2006. But come finals time, or in Origin, he's the best player in the world.

Anyway, Daniel Mortimer hasn't been around long enough to make any definitive judgements about his quality or potential. His outstanding half season in 2009 was cancelled out by his mediocre 2010, for sure. But he's shown how good he can be, and he's shown how poor he can be.

He's got time on his side in the sense that he's inexperienced, and he hasn't filled out yet. These areas will improve every year.
 

Twizzle

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154,070
Stats are open to interpretation and some people like to interpret them different to others.

Some people also dont provide all the stats, just the ones that suit them.
 

Poupou Escobar

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92,395
Stats are open to interpretation and some people like to interpret them different to others.

True.

Some people are just plain better at interpreting them than others.

Some people also dont provide all the stats, just the ones that suit them.

Mate there's a lot of stats out there and not all relevant to all lines of argument.

They also cost nothing to have a look at (yet).

If you disagree with somebody's assessment of the stats they give, or feel that stats have been excluded which are relevant to the argument then you can easily go and find the stats that support your counter argument.

But just whinging about stats is a bit childish, to be honest.
 

Eelementary

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57,297
How can they mate, they're just numbers.

They can be interpreted incorrectly but by themselves they're just a numeric representation of the frequency with which a particular event has occurred.

They're great for generating discussion, and excellent for supporting a line of argument. They're certainly better than a bunch of boofheads sitting around and saying "He can't tackle" or "He's a great playmaker" with nothing to support their arguments.

As I've already said, if stats were pointless then coaches and scouts wouldn't keep them. The fact remains that the best players have the best stats and the poorest stats belong to the worst players. Do you think that's a coincidence?

Interestingly enough, that gets said a lot about Mortimer. In another thread I pointed out his average tackling efficiency rate was 75%ish - for a small bloke who makes 20-odd tackles a game. And he was partnered alongside Mateo last year.

Point is, he's no defensive slouch.
 

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