If you hate Morts...

[Poupou Escobar]

Is it maybe possible that the Dragons played a style that doesn't rely on the halves as much as every other team does?

Go and have a look at the video. The Dragons halves are never expected to create - they just catch and pass, and otherwise only go to the line after a quick play-the-ball.

That's the style we need to be playing. f**k, that's the style every side bar the Roosters, Tigers and Cowboys need to be playing.

And who won a comp L. We'd take that.

Does that mean we'd be better off with Darius Boyd at fullback? He won a comp too.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

Is it maybe possible that the Dragons played a style that doesn't rely on the halves as much as every other team does?

Go and have a look at the video. The Dragons halves are never expected to create - they just catch and pass, and otherwise only go to the line after a quick play-the-ball.

That's the style we need to be playing. f**k, that's the style every side bar the Roosters, Tigers and Cowboys need to be playing.



Does that mean we'd be better off with Darius Boyd at fullback? He won a comp too.

Exactly what I have been saying, we can play like the dragons. Our halves and fullback have the potential to be better. We just need some structure.

And anyone that mentions sowards long kicking game, look at Hayne's kicking game he can kick just a long maybe not as accurate. But with some practice and the right team strucuture Hayne's kicking game can be as good as Sowards. Also don't forget Hayne has only been kicking for last 2-3 years, I doubt he did any general play kicking in the juniors - Soward has alwasy been a half so he has been a kicker of the ball for the last 15 or so years all the way through the juniors

 

[Eels Dude]

The worst thing we could do is copy the Dragons IMO. If Kearney wants copy their style then he's not working to our players strengths and that would be poor coaching.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

With four of our top offloaders gone, how do our players' strengths differ from the Dragons?

The only difference really is Hayne, and at fullback he can be plugged into the attack in a variety of ways.

 

[Eels Dude]

The difference is Robson is no Hornby and Mortimor is no Soward. You cannot make these better players overnight. We need to rely on Hayne for a lot of our attacking plays, but not just in structured play but in ad lib play because that's what he's so great at. Once you start telling him he's not allowed to do this on the first, second, or third tackle then really you're taking away a lot of his strikepower, and therefore our teams strikepower. Obviously we need some structure, but not to the extent of the Dragons. Ben Smith is looking like he could possibly become a great ball running forward if we use him properly on the edges. Fui is a powerhouse who if can get a quick play the ball away, a player like Mitchell could follow with some nifty dummy half runs to set the defence on the backfoot.

 

[Captain BF]

What a wonderfully positive thread title! Bring on the eason.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

The difference is Robson is no Hornby and Mortimor is no Soward.

Right.

But all four of them are the weakest members of their respective teams. Therefore we should be relying on our halves in the same way the Dragons do - f**k all.

You cannot make these better players overnight. We need to rely on Hayne for a lot of our attacking plays, but not just in structured play but in ad lib play because that's what he's so great at. Once you start telling him he's not allowed to do this on the first, second, or third tackle then really you're taking away a lot of his strikepower, and therefore our teams strikepower.

The thing is, Hayne can't run the ball on every tackle.

Last year he got in the way of our halves a lot, handling the ball when he didn't need to and there was nothing on. Consequently he often wasn't there when the opportunities opened up. In 2009 he was always there, ready to take that last pass that got him through the line.

This year he more often than not wanted the first pass, ran at set defences, and made a lot less linebreaks.

 

[caylo]

Right.

But all four of them are the weakest members of their respective teams. Therefore we should be relying on our halves in the same way the Dragons do - f**k all.

The Dragons weakest players may be Hornby and Soward but you cant compare. Soward has probably been in the top 5 halves over the last two years, while he isn't as creative as Thurston or Benji he definatly plays a very good structured game plus his kicking game is probably the best in the comp and his passing is accurate and effective.

You are comparing apples and oranges IMO, Soward is an very good player while Hornby plays the perfect fold supporting in general play and has an adequate kicking game when called apon.

If we could play the structured game the dragons did, I doubt our halves could convert it into tries as effectivly as the dragons do. IMO none of our halves could produce what Soward and Hornby have even if they improved 100%, we need to give our halves more freedom and allow them to take more risk and then hope our defence can hold on when the risks don't come off.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

The Dragons weakest players may be Hornby and Soward but you cant compare. Soward has probably been in the top 5 halves over the last two years, while he isn't as creative as Thurston or Benji he definatly plays a very good structured game plus his kicking game is probably the best in the comp and his passing is accurate and effective.

You are comparing apples and oranges IMO, Soward is an very good player while Hornby plays the perfect fold supporting in general play and has an adequate kicking game when called apon.

If we could play the structured game the dragons did, I doubt our halves could convert it into tries as effectivly as the dragons do. IMO none of our halves could produce what Soward and Hornby have even if they improved 100%, we need to give our halves more freedom and allow them to take more risk and then hope our defence can hold on when the risks don't come off.

But also before Bennett join the dragons, Soward was struggling to make the Dragons top 17. In fact Brown dropped him from the side for their 2008 semi final match against the Eagles.

I think the Dragons are a prime example of what a change of coaching can do for a side. 2011 is full of mystery for the Eels

 

[born an eel]

Right.

But all four of them are the weakest members of their respective teams. Therefore we should be relying on our halves in the same way the Dragons do - f**k all.



The thing is, Hayne can't run the ball on every tackle.

Last year he got in the way of our halves a lot, handling the ball when he didn't need to and there was nothing on. Consequently he often wasn't there when the opportunities opened up. In 2009 he was always there, ready to take that last pass that got him through the line.

This year he more often than not wanted the first pass, ran at set defences, and made a lot less linebreaks.

you are not allowed to say this about hayne, otherwise his manager will call a meeting and threaten to leave the club. :sarcasm:

 

[Poupou Escobar]

you are not allowed to say this about hayne, otherwise his manager will call a meeting and threaten to leave the club. :sarcasm:

I think that's bullsh*t as well.

 

[Eels Dude]

The Dragons weakest players may be Hornby and Soward but you cant compare. Soward has probably been in the top 5 halves over the last two years, while he isn't as creative as Thurston or Benji he definatly plays a very good structured game plus his kicking game is probably the best in the comp and his passing is accurate and effective.

You are comparing apples and oranges IMO, Soward is an very good player while Hornby plays the perfect fold supporting in general play and has an adequate kicking game when called apon.

If we could play the structured game the dragons did, I doubt our halves could convert it into tries as effectivly as the dragons do. IMO none of our halves could produce what Soward and Hornby have even if they improved 100%, we need to give our halves more freedom and allow them to take more risk and then hope our defence can hold on when the risks don't come off.

Spot on. Not just tries either, but repeat sets and finding open space with a long kicking game, or finding touch close to the try line.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Spot on. Not just tries either, but repeat sets and finding open space with a long kicking game, or finding touch close to the try line.

You're missing the point.

What you're describing is the bare minimum you want out of your halves (which is all the Dragons want out of theirs).

If our halves can't even do that behind a strong pack (just like Hornby and Soward do) then they're not going to be able to take on a set defensive line and create tries out of nothing a la Benji, Thurston and the Chooks' halves.

You're really arguing the point now. Of course our halves (poor) aren't as good as the Dragons' halves (average). So why should we expect more from them than the Dragons expect from theirs?

If Ben Hornby can't play like Todd Carney or Jonathan Thurston, then why should Robson or Mortimer be expected to?

Bennett keeps it very simple for his halves, and with those forwards he can afford to. With our pack and our playmakers we should be playing the same way.

We mightn't be minor premiers and win the grand final, but we'll probably do better than 12th.

 

[Eels Dude]

You're missing the point.

What you're describing is the bare minimum you want out of your halves (which is all the Dragons want out of theirs).

If our halves can't even do that behind a strong pack (just like Hornby and Soward do) then they're not going to be able to take on a set defensive line and create tries out of nothing a la Benji, Thurston and the Chooks' halves.

You're really arguing the point now. Of course our halves (poor) aren't as good as the Dragons' halves (average). So why should we expect more from them than the Dragons expect from theirs?

If Ben Hornby can't play like Todd Carney or Jonathan Thurston, then why should Robson or Mortimer be expected to?

Bennett keeps it very simple for his halves, and with those forwards he can afford to. With our pack and our playmakers we should be playing the same way.

We mightn't be minor premiers and win the grand final, but we'll probably do better than 12th.

You're severely underestimating both Jamie Soward and Ben Hornby. I wouldn't call the Dragons halves average at all, they're very very good without being outstanding. We actually had a pretty solid performing pack last year remember? But neither Robson nor Mortimor could kick downfield for s**t, they just don't have the boot on them. Whenever they tried they found the fullback on the full and ususually bang on the 20 metre line at best. That's why Hayne, Burt and even Keating did a lot of the long kicking. And we had ample oppurtunity for tries or repeat sets inside the opposition 20, but neither could execute the short kicking game required to take advantage of that. What exactly has changed that you think they can do better this year?

 

[lingard]

Round 1 (Dragons), 22nd minute: hit on front-rower Jon Green.

Round 7 (Cowboys), 62nd minute: hit on winger Michael Bani, along with Hindmarsh.

Round 10 (Sea Eagles), 44th minute: picked up fullback Ben Farrah and drove him into the ground.

Round 16 (Broncos), 24th minute: picked up and dumped front-rower Ashton Sims. However Sims got the ball away.

Also in that game, 48th minute: front-on tackle on Corey Parker forces the ball loose.

Five tackles in a season. He is good, then.

 

[lingard]

And who won a comp L. We'd take that.

My point was that they are both better players than Pou Pou is making out.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

You're severely underestimating both Jamie Soward and Ben Hornby. I wouldn't call the Dragons halves average at all, they're very very good without being outstanding. We actually had a pretty solid performing pack last year remember? But neither Robson nor Mortimor could kick downfield for s**t, they just don't have the boot on them. Whenever they tried they found the fullback on the full and ususually bang on the 20 metre line at best. That's why Hayne, Burt and even Keating did a lot of the long kicking. And we had ample oppurtunity for tries or repeat sets inside the opposition 20, but neither could execute the short kicking game required to take advantage of that. What exactly has changed that you think they can do better this year?

Yes Mortimer and Robson have sh*t kicking games last year, but overall that wasn't the main reason for our poor season. Attitude was poor, but in several games we had enough opportunities at the oposition line to win the game. But our last tackle options were crap, it was almost like give it to Hayne. Look at the storm and dragons when they are attacking the opositions line they are very structured and each player knows eactly what to do - very rarely to score ab lib tries when attacking the opositions line. I am expecting Kearney and co to address this issue and put so very good attacking structures in place when we are in the 20 metre zone. Just this improve will help the eels go along way next year.

 

[lingard]

To be fair, there's a fair few famous halves that never started out as specialist halves. Kenny didn't start off as a 5/8 and Sterlo originally debuted as a fill-in fullback and later a 5/8 before he cemented the no.7 jersey.

IMO Hornby is an excellent halfback, suffice it to say, the Dragons have an excellent halves combination - Not the best in the comp, but still very good nevertheless. When you have one-dimensional wingers like Brett Morris on your team scoring a sh*t load of tries, you know the halves are doing something right.

I think Hornby is one of the most under-rated players in the comp. I reckon he`s a great player. His utility value has probably gone against him. If he`d been able to stick to either fullback OR five-eight, he`d probably have played S.O.O. on a regular basis. But, as good as he is, he`s not really a half-back. He makes a great fist of it, though, because he`s such a great player.

 

[lingard]

What a wonderfully positive thread title! Bring on the eason.

It`s okay, mate. No one hates Morts.

 

[lingard]

Right.

But all four of them are the weakest members of their respective teams. Therefore we should be relying on our halves in the same way the Dragons do - f**k all.



The thing is, Hayne can't run the ball on every tackle.

Last year he got in the way of our halves a lot, handling the ball when he didn't need to and there was nothing on. Consequently he often wasn't there when the opportunities opened up. In 2009 he was always there, ready to take that last pass that got him through the line.

This year he more often than not wanted the first pass, ran at set defences, and made a lot less linebreaks.

Are you kidding? Do you really think that Hornby and Soward are the weakest members of the Saints team? You`ll really need a stack load of stats to back up that argument! :lol: You are really underestimating them.